The end of an era? Ames Plantation

[TheLBLman]

Personally, I would love to see hunter numbers decline. The loss of habitat and access just doesn't seem to support the numbers of hunters we have.

Perhaps I'm looking at all this from a little different angle.

"Free" private land access has certainly nose-dived over the past couple decades. At the same time, the supply of privately owned land available to lease for hunting has been steadily increasing (despite a steadily decreasing interest in people wanting to spend their time out hunting).

Some are also confusing access to publicly owned lands with "access" to privately owned timberlands, which used to be about as "accessible" to the general public as our publicly owned lands which allow hunting.

Differences vary greatly from area to area, and can be very different close in to major metropolitan areas such as Memphis or Nashville.

But let me share one example for which I'm familiar.

Between 20 & 30 years ago most of Stewart Co. (outside the publicly owned lands) was owned by a single timber company. This timber company's property was in fact "private" property, but they did allow any member of the public to hunt it.

During this "era", let's just say between 1990 & 2000, the majority of the hunters deer hunting there were driving over 4 hours one way, most coming from far East TN (Knoxville or farther east).

But beginning about the Year 2000, those numbers of deer hunters traveling from East TN to Tennessee's Western Highland Rim areas (mainly Stewart, Houston, & Humphreys Counties) began drastically declining. The beginning of this decline was not so much over a lack of accessible hunting lands in these 3 counties as it was more about an expansion of deer & growing deer densities across numerous East TN counties.

What actually happened was a majority of these formerly traveling East TN hunters simply found acceptable deer hunting closer, more convenient to their homes, AND less costly for them to hunt "close to home". At the same time, older generations of deer hunter have been dying faster than newer generations are replacing them. What's more, with each passing year, the remaining older hunters are becoming less willing to drive long distances to go deer hunting.

Now, there may be less private land in East TN offering "free" access to the general public than years ago, but there is now more private land with good deer hunting, and fewer deer hunters competing for it, than even 20 years ago. Most of the East TN deer leases are relatively cheap in cost compared to most in Middle & West TN.

I believe what many may be missing is this equation is not so much about the number of hunters as it has become about each individual hunter's annual time spent afield hunting. THAT has also nose-dived.

I'm been an avid hunter since childhood, pursuing a wide variety of game, and have spent much time hunting many of the publicly owned lands from far East TN to far West TN since the 1970's. Despite what some are saying, the publicly owned deer woods have a healthier deer herd now than 20 years ago, AND fewer deer hunters. I'm talking about the deer hunting on publicly owned lands.

Or course, some WMAs can be very crowded at times, especially those close to a place like Nashville or Memphis. Just saying, they are less crowded now than they were 20 years ago, AND the opportunity for a 3 1/2 or older buck is greater now than then.

 

[TheLBLman]

Now back to Ames, I believe it will still comparably meet the demand from the remaining hunters, offer similar quality hunting, than it did before it may spin off part of its lands. What's more, just because they sell some acreage, that does not mean this acreage is being removed from its availability to hunters.

May be different hunters, it may be leased, it may be hunted, possibly by some former Ames members. More likely than being turned into subdivisions, it will be broken down into hundred-plus-acre farms, and continue to be hunted. Those 5500 acres could become fifty-five 100-acre farms?

Whatever the changes to those 5500 acres, other than being removed from the current Ames hunting club(s), it will likely be more an ownership change than a land use change, at least for several years, after which, we will have fewer hunters than we have today?

My guess is Ames will remain much what it is and for which it has been known.

 

[fairchaser]

Now back to Ames, I believe it will still comparably meet the demand from the remaining hunters, offer similar quality hunting, than it did before it may spin off part of its lands. What's more, just because they sell some acreage, that does not mean this acreage is being removed from its availability to hunters.

May be different hunters, it may be leased, it may be hunted, possibly by some former Ames members. More likely than being turned into subdivisions, it will be broken down into hundred-plus-acre farms, and continue to be hunted. Those 5500 acres could become fifty-five 100-acre farms?

Whatever the changes to those 5500 acres, other than being removed from the current Ames hunting club(s), it will likely be more an ownership change than a land use change, at least for several years, after which, we will have fewer hunters than we have today?

My guess is Ames will remain much what it is and for which it has been known.

I agree LBLman, Ames will remain a southern tradition and the land sold will stay deer and turkey paradise just owned by another land owner. More than likely a single owner with deep pockets who already own large holdings in the immediate area. I believe it will be lost however to the public and reserved for those select few with the deep pockets.

 

[BSK]

But beginning about the Year 2000, those numbers of deer hunters traveling from East TN to Tennessee's Western Highland Rim areas (mainly Stewart, Houston, & Humphreys Counties) began drastically declining. The beginning of this decline was not so much over a lack of accessible hunting lands in these 3 counties as it was more about an expansion of deer & growing deer densities across numerous East TN counties.

What actually happened was a majority of these formerly traveling East TN hunters simply found acceptable deer hunting closer, more convenient to their homes, AND less costly for them to hunt "close to home".

You nailed it Wes. Years ago, the ridge-and-hollow hardwoods of the Highland Rim was basically owned by timber companies. Anyone could hunt them for a small fee (I think $10 for an annual permit). The woods - and all the local motels and campgrounds - were jam-packed with hunters with East TN license plates. You had to make reservations a year in advance to get a spot in the local KOA Campground for opening weekend of gun season. Listening to the gunshots opening weekend, close and far, sounded like brewing war.

Now? My situation may be unique, but I don't think so. The first five days of MZ season, I heard four gunshots. Just four. How far can you hear a gunshot? Maybe 5 miles? Yet only four in 5 days. Gun season, the whole first week, maybe 5 or 6 shots total. The lack of hunting pressure now in my area is night and day different from 20 years ago. The local hotels are empty, even opening weekend of gun season. Few in the campgrounds. The East TN hunters just aren't coming west anymore, and the West and Middle TN hunters are more widely dispersed.

 

[TheLBLman]

My situation may be unique, but I don't think so.

Many of us older hunters are observing similar in many different counties, many different states, many different public hunting areas as well.

The East TN hunters just aren't coming west anymore, and the West and Middle TN hunters are more widely dispersed.

Exactly.
And I believe it's more about the hunters hunting less than it's about fewer people purchasing a hunting license.

What we're seeing isn't as noticeable to some of the younger generations, as they have no longer-term basis for personal comparisons. Many of them think public lands are crowded, yet they have no idea what many these areas looked like back in the 1980's with a lot more hunters and a lot fewer deer.

Truth is, today, many public hunting lands are less crowded with hunters than many private leases. Of course, most private land is less crowded with hunters than most public lands, but neither are as crowded with hunters as both the private & public lands I hunted for decades. Strictly talking deer hunting here. Different situation with waterfowl.

Speaking of things changing over time, as recently as the late 1970's, there were more hunters afield in TN for the opening day of squirrel season than the opening day of deer season. I still squirrel hunt.

Unlike my younger days, today I can roam public lands days on end squirrel hunting (outside deer season) and never bump into another hunter. I'm afraid similar is the future trending of deer hunting on public lands, albeit that may be good for me, it's bad for the future of deer hunting.

For those of us who can just appreciate it, THESE are the good ole days NOW for deer and squirrel hunting. Most just don't understand, much less appreciate how much better the deer & squirrel hunting is now compared to my youth, on public land, with a bow (or with a gun), as well as on private, with whatever.

 

[BSK]

For those of us who can just appreciate it, THESE are the good ole days NOW for deer and squirrel hunting. Most just don't understand, much less appreciate how much better the deer & squirrel hunting is now compared to my youth, on public land, with a bow (or with a gun), as well as on private, with whatever.

You couldn't be more right. I can't believe how many trail-cam pics of mature bucks I see from hunters all across the state. 20 years ago, that was unthinkable. I ran my first photo census in 1999 (right after the scientific paper describing the technique was published). I had 21 bucks using my property that year, including one that was 3 1/2! At the time, I was blown away. I thought it couldn't get any better. My census last year? 47 bucks, including seven 3 1/2 year-olds and 5 mature bucks. And these types of numbers are now commonplace across the region.

And why so many older bucks? Far less hunting pressure by far more educated hunters.

 

[TheLBLman]

And why so many older bucks? Far less hunting pressure by far more educated hunters.

AND, this isn't unique to TN, as it's becoming the norm in most states now.

CWD may be muddying the waters a bit, but in places it has been known for over a decade, the sky hasn't fallen. In fact, CWD may have significantly contributed to the decreasing number of collective hours afield annually by the average deer hunter, along with reducing the number of hunters.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Hunters are, in a literal sense, dying and not being replaced. In retrospect, I've watched it happen in my family for decades. Fewer children, less access to land, less interest in the outdoors, more migration to population centers et al. Of the scores of family members that hunted years ago there may be 1/2 dozen of us now. The remainder have either died, gotten too old to bear the cold, or otherwise just plain quit.

Not only is Ames the end of an era...hunting is the end of an era.

 

[TheLBLman]

While I don't think it will ever be to such an extreme degree, I do believe what has trended over the past 50 years with squirrel hunting, i.e. greatly declining interest from hunters, is now happening with deer hunting.

For a few decades, there may have been TOO much emphasis on deer hunting, while other types of hunting took the back seat. Hunters today seem to be discovering there is more to hunt than just deer. IMO, it was the hunting of a variety of game, starting at young ages, that most helped to create LIFETIME enthusiasm for hunting.

For novices of all ages, small game hunting is typically more exciting than deer hunting, and various skill sets for deer hunting may be more readily learned doing something like stalk hunting squirrels. Interestingly, many landowners once "guarded" their favorite squirrel woods much like they do their favorite deer woods today.

The only certainty is things are changing.

Hunters are, in a literal sense, dying and not being replaced.

Totally agree, although I don't think "sport" hunting will become extinct in the next couple of generations. As to hunting in general, there may be more a shift from "doing it more for the enjoyment of hunting" to more for the enjoyment of obtaining organic, free-range meat. This shift should help public hunting of both public & private lands remain the best tool for managing ongoing deer populations.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

You nailed it Wes. Years ago, the ridge-and-hollow hardwoods of the Highland Rim was basically owned by timber companies. Anyone could hunt them for a small fee (I think $10 for an annual permit). The woods - and all the local motels and campgrounds - were jam-packed with hunters with East TN license plates. You had to make reservations a year in advance to get a spot in the local KOA Campground for opening weekend of gun season. Listening to the gunshots opening weekend, close and far, sounded like brewing war.

The East TN hunters just aren't coming west anymore, and the West and Middle TN hunters are more widely dispersed.

So much so, that you have middle and west TN hunters going east to hunt. I have gone to a couple leases I'm on up on the plateau for some great hunting experiences the last few years. More action than I've seen in Hickman county. Our place has been barren since 2017 of deer and turkey. As for the deer, the biggest impact we've had was 2018 - ZERO acorns, 2019 - worst EHD I've seen and 2020 - VERY few acorns and virtually no signs of recovery from EHD the year prior. Nonetheless, I'll be hunting east TN until we show signs of improvement here. In the meantime, I'm doing all I can to help them out: creating 20 more acres of food plots, 40 more acres of cutover for natural forage and burning as often as I can. Things sure have changed - I remember those days of trucks pulled off the sides of roads here if there were even a possibility of parking there.

 

[BSK]

Things sure have changed - I remember those days of trucks pulled off the sides of roads here if there were even a possibility of parking there.

When I first started looking at TN for deer hunting (I lived in KY and good deer hunting land was impossible to find, and deer densities very low), Hickman County was THE place to hunt. Hunters were killing something like 6,000 deer a year out of that county (mostly spike and forkhorn yearling bucks). But competition for hunting land in Hickman County was beyond fierce.

 

[Slobberknocker]

Then they should reduce the dues significantly IMO .

That remaining 12,000 acres in Alabama or Mississippi would bring a minimum lease price of $300K a year. It doesn't take a genius to see that would be $3000 a year per member for 100 members. We're talking 50 members so that would be $6000 each per year. That doesn't count what you would be charged to plant food plots. Ames continues to be an extremely great value. I hope they cut membership to 30. I'd gladly pay more. The time I spend there is worth it.

 

[Snake]

That remaining 12,000 acres in Alabama or Mississippi would bring a minimum lease price of $300K a year. It doesn't take a genius to see that would be $3000 a year per member for 100 members. We're talking 50 members so that would be $6000 each per year. That doesn't count what you would be charged to plant food plots. Ames continues to be an extremely great value. I hope they cut membership to 30. I'd gladly pay more. The time I spend there is worth it.

Have you had the rights to Alabama and Mississippi before ?

 

[Slobberknocker]

Have you had the rights to Alabama and Mississippi before ?

I've been a lease holder in Mississippi, and member of several clubs in Alabama and Mississippi. Cutover and plantation pines run $18 to $20 an acre. Along the river it is what the market will bear and if you don't pay it a Cajun will. The last club I was in in Mississippi cost me $3700 a year on 4000 acres.

 

[Snake]

I've been a lease holder in Mississippi, and member of several clubs in Alabama and Mississippi. Cutover and plantation pines run $18 to $20 an acre. Along the river it is what the market will bear and if you don't pay it a Cajun will. The last club I was in in Mississippi cost me $3700 a year on 4000 acres.

I'd have to quit hunting . I remember quite a few years back when I was on a 1580 ac. lease in Lewis Co. through our activity club at work that costs me $60 , a 93 ac. lease in Giles Co. that cost me $ 100 and a 177 ac. lease in Lincoln Co. that cost me $200 and last but not least a 1500 ac . lease in Cumberland Co. that cost $150 . And I thought I spent alot to hunt .

 

[AT Hiker]

For discussion sake, I firmly believe hunter numbers are NOT declining and that access is. Supply and demand is speaking for the price increase, same amount of hunters shooting for lesser access. Ames breaking up may or may not provide more access, less if/when its developed.

We have hoovered around 14-15 million licensed hunters since 1958, less now per capita of course.

https://www.fws.gov/wsfrprograms/subpages/licenseinfo/HuntingLicCertHistory.pdf

 

[TheLBLman]

We have hoovered around 14-15 million licensed hunters since 1958, less now per capita of course.

I wasn't yet hunting in 1958, but I can sure tell you that in 1968, the average hunter spent a lot more time "hunting" than he does today. How much time is spent annually by all the collective hunters is what has really decreased most.

Our largest public hunting area in TN is the Cherokee National Forest. If you were there on the opening day of rifle deer season last year (2020), I doubt you would have seen 5% as many deer hunters there as there was in 1968.

Using the Cherokee WMA isn't exactly a true reflection because in 1968, I believe fewer than half TN's 95 counties even had a deer season, and, we actually had fewer WMAs, even fewer WMA's that allowed deer hunting. People were just hunting other game, but avidly "hunting" nonetheless.

Most of today's TN hunters under the age of 40 would find it simply unbelievable how many TN hunters owned "bird" dogs back in the 1960's. I suspect more people quail hunted then than turkey hunt in TN today. Probably more people waterfowl hunted as well, and for certain, more people squirrel hunted, raccoon hunted, rabbit hunted, hunted period.

Things will continue to change, some for better, some for worse, all a matter of whose perspective. But the trend is less sport hunting, and that's what has fueled expensive hunting leases. Waterfowl hunting may continue to increase, while whitetail deer hunting (for sport rather than meat) will continue to decrease.

 

[AT Hiker]

Deer and Elk hunting in MT hasn't decreased. This is the first year I haven't drawn a tag since I started hunting there about 6 years ago.
12.5% increase in Resident applicants and 30% increase in non-resident applications.

I can agree that the resident increase is due to meat hunters but I doubt many NR meat hunters are forking over $700 for a meat deer or $1k for a meat elk.
Things are indeed changing.

 

[SJS]

Very disappointing to hear this.
However, add some perspective, and the sky isn't falling on your hunting there?

AFTER (if) this happens, the deer & turkey hunting clubs should still have in excess of 10,000 contiguous acres to hunt?

The number of hunters (at least for anything other than some "organic" or "free-range" meat) continues to rapidly decline. If you think otherwise, it's an illusion.

The future of hunting is not just about the number of hunters, but also about just how many days each is interested in hunting annually. The number of days allocated for annual hunting per hunter may be dropping much faster than the number of hunters buying a license.

Unlike so much of the times past, we now have many other opportunities for entertaining ourselves, some of which actually does include hunting, but better and/or different hunting than we've grown up with in Tennessee.

Rather than pay a high annual lease or club fee for two or three weekends of hunting, many are choosing to just spend similar money on a week of "vacation" hunting in some other state. Heck, if I didn't have family here, I'd probably be spending what's left of my time in Alaska, hunting nothing but "public" land.

Add to this that most avid "serious" lifetime hunters may currently be over the age of 55, and by all appearances, only a fraction of this dying breed will be replaced by younger hunters.

For those of us who haven't yet bit the dust, we may actually end up with more acres to hunt per day afield than in times past.

Ames can easily just operate it's hunting clubs on 1/2 to 3/4 its current membership numbers, charge the same annual dues, and your hunting could actually be comparable to before they sold any their hunting land. It also wouldn't surprise me if some of the current hunt club members may plan to hunt the newly sold land (and may be dropping their memberships in the Ames clubs).

I know some think I'm crazy, but I see a future where avid hunters are begged to come hunt (deer), instead of being offered over-priced land-lease prices for a place to hunt. This is already happening.

It's all about the law of supply & demand.
You'll end up just fine, at least with your hunting opportunities at Ames.

Spot on!

 

[fairchaser]

The TWRA has interest in buying the Ames land that's for sale. They can only pay appraised value unless there are special circumstances such as a large donor or if it's protection for waterfowl, etc. That would make for an interesting proposition if it was available to the public for hunting. I'm guessing it will be decided fairly quickly with the amount of interest there is early on.