Straight wall cartridges for muzzleloader?

[morgancountry]

For all those that are for allowing centerfire during ML...that also play golf....do you use the women's tees? I'm sure you wouldn't be kicked out of the club or anything...so I assume it's "legal". Just curious.

For the record, a lot more men should play from the forward tees lol. If you can't break 90, you should play from them. The rest of us get tired of waiting behind you

 

[Southern Sportsman]

What is a basket-rack?

A common, but ill-defined term to describe a small buck, typically young, with antlers that form the classic symmetrical shape (main-beams grow out and back in with upward tines), despite their small size. Think of your classic 1.5 yr old 6 pt or 70" 8 pt. Usually lumped into the same class as, or just above, spikes and fork-horns.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Any literature to support this either? Or can a biologist chime in? i think as far as seasons go, it's either harvest or don't. I really don't think there are normally method distinctions. Methods limits are normally around safety concerns.

You don't think hunting regulations normally have method restrictions?

What about:
Bow seasons? Muzzleloader seasons? No slugs or rifles or buckshot for turkeys? Magazine capacity for ducks? Shot size restrictions? Electronic callers? Bait? Shooting times? Shooting turkeys from a boat? Roost shooting? Thermal imaging? Artificial lights? Drones? Running deer with dogs? Live decoys?

I can go on if needed.

 

[East TN Hunter]

If it becomes legal I would use one and I hope it does.

 

[timberjack86]

Then pile the does to the ceiling. No shortage of them from Bristol to Memphis.

Hmmm have you ever hunted in East TN?

 

[scn]

Any literature to support this either? Or can a biologist chime in? i think as far as seasons go, it's either harvest or don't. I really don't think there are normally method distinctions. Methods limits are normally around safety concerns.

That's fair. Not what I was doing obviously.

Weapon types have a GREAT deal to do with harvests, and are the over riding reasons for differences in season lengths and bag limits for the different weapons. TWRA biologists calculated years ago the time period it took to kill 10,000 deer. It took a significantly longer period to do it with archery than with centerfire guns. As the weapon efficiency increased, the number of days to kill the 10,000 (and multiples thereof) greatly decreased. That is why there can be an extremely long archery season without much effect on the overall harvest.

With the exception of certain WMAs with localized safety issues, the methods limits have VERY little to do with safety concerns. It all comes back to weapon efficiency and harvest objectives.

 

[CrossVolle]

Hmmm have you ever hunted in East TN?

Every second of my tennessee hunting life.

 

[knightrider]

Hmmm have you ever hunted in East TN?

I doI sat 17 straight all day sits last December on two different properties before i seen a doe, saw several bucks . Needless to say my rifle doe tag wasnt filled on either of those two properties

 

[mike243]

I doI sat 17 straight all day sits last December on two different properties before i seen a doe, saw several bucks . Needless to say my rifle doe tag wasnt filled on either of those two properties

Yep deer are thin in a lot of our ETn area, before 2008 we had a larger herd but EHD knocked the numbers down and we haven't made up the numbers since. been in the woods the last 2 days and have yet to see a deer of any type. have went a lot of seasons with never firing a shot in ETn. there are pockets that hold good numbers and if you have a place I'm glad for you.

 

[knightrider]

Yep deer are thin in a lot of our ETn area, before 2008 we had a larger herd but EHD knocked the numbers down and we haven't made up the numbers since. been in the woods the last 2 days and have yet to see a deer of any type. have went a lot of seasons with never firing a shot in ETn. there are pockets that hold good numbers and if you have a place I'm glad for you.

Yes sir those that say you will rebound in five years are full of it, in 2008 we lost upwards of 70% here and still not anywhere near 2008 numbers

 

[megalomaniac]

For all those that are for allowing centerfire during ML...that also play golf....do you use the women's tees? I'm sure you wouldn't be kicked out of the club or anything...so I assume it's "legal". Just curious.

Do you drive off the men's tees with a putter to self limit? Or do you use a carbon shaft oversized head $500 driver?

THATs the problem with current muzzleloaders. Go back to iron sights, loose pyrodex, flintlock or percussion caps, no scopes, no sabots.

There is zero advantage to rifles over current smokeless muzzleloaders.

 

[bowtechgump]

I believe primitive should be primitive......old school percussion cap on a Hawken was advanced......today's muzzle loaders are more advanced than many rifles of the 1970's. I mean surely the deer haven't advanced, they are just an undomesticated goat.

 

[megalomaniac]

Weapon types have a GREAT deal to do with harvests, and are the over riding reasons for differences in season lengths and bag limits for the different weapons. TWRA biologists calculated years ago the time period it took to kill 10,000 deer. It took a significantly longer period to do it with archery than with centerfire guns. As the weapon efficiency increased, the number of days to kill the 10,000 (and multiples thereof) greatly decreased. That is why there can be an extremely long archery season without much effect on the overall harvest.

With the exception of certain WMAs with localized safety issues, the methods limits have VERY little to do with safety concerns. It all comes back to weapon efficiency and harvest objectives.

Has TWRA recalculated weapon efficiency after scopes and smokeless ML era? Ethical 300y shots, no misfires/hangfires. I would argue they are just as effective (or more effective... say compared to a 30-30) as traditional centerfires. If we need to limit buck harvest (and we don't as long as there is a 2 buck limit), we need to limit the effectiveness of muzzleloader season. Plus, ML season used to be 7 days back in the 80s... now it gets 9.days, but TWO weekends of the best hunting when bucks are most vulnerable.

Either take ML season back to PRIMITIVE hunting, or just do away with it altogether.

 

[Dully]

I think if you want to hunt with a straight wall rifle go ahead,when you get caught you probably want to sell it to pay your fine,then this straight wall crap will get out of your system,then you can use weapon for the season like the rest of us

 

[jlanecr500]

I have 2 single shot 45-70's, H&R and Henry. Haven't hunted with a 45-70 in years and don't ever plan to use one in ml season. I hunt very little in rifle season. It seems like a lot of hunters take chancy shots because they can chamber another round in short order for another chancy shot. One of the main reasons to keep it "incapable of being loaded from the breech" is to reduce harvest numbers in the early part of the rut.
I have to make every effort to make my sml shot count. From weighing powder to sizing bullets to the nearest .0001" for proper fit to keeping my powder and primers dry to taking advantage of the best possible humane shot placement. That might be the only shot you get. I heard one of my long time hunting partners tell someone that "If you hear him shoot, there is a deer on the ground".

Smokeless muzzleloaders come in lots of different variations, the most common are single shot conversions. We limit them to around 40kpsi which translates to a 250gr bullet at 2400 to 2500 fps. Comparable to a 45-70. They can be loaded lighter in bullet weight chargeweight, or powder burn rate. They can easily imitate black powder sub speeds. On the high end, short of a 50bmg, there isn't a gun in the woods that can outshoot a purpose built sml.

As for those saying my sml's will be worthless in the future, you better get that shot off with your little single shot pea shooter cause if I get my tracking system locked in that deer will be DRT.

In the grand scheme of things, effective range makes little difference in the ml harvest as most kill shots are less than 100 yards. Reload time makes more difference.

That said, hunt with what ever makes you happy within the law. Just please make every shot count. After all, that's what muzzleloading and further more, primitive hunting is all about.

I need to get with wobblyshot or one of the other traditional ml hunters /shooters. I'd love to build one and hunt with it. I think that will be my 2024 goal.

 

[megalomaniac]

I suppose there is already a reasonable harvest comparison between 'gun' season and 'ML' season in Tennessee.since unit CWD is using rifles while the rest of the state is using muzzleloaders.

Is the kill that much lower in the rest of the state using MLs than unit CWD?

 

[DayDay]

Has TWRA recalculated weapon efficiency after scopes and smokeless ML era? Ethical 300y shots, no misfires/hangfires. I would argue they are just as effective (or more effective... say compared to a 30-30) as traditional centerfires. If we need to limit buck harvest (and we don't as long as there is a 2 buck limit), we need to limit the effectiveness of muzzleloader season. Plus, ML season used to be 7 days back in the 80s... now it gets 9.days, but TWO weekends of the best hunting when bucks are most vulnerable.

Either take ML season back to PRIMITIVE hunting, or just do away with it altogether.

ML gets 14 days. NOV 4-17 I think I used to be able to find harvest data broken down into weapons instead of just dates, antlered, and antlerless but can't find it. I wonder how many deer are killed by bow during muzzleloader season and now rife comes into play for CWD.

I've considered buying and learning muzzleloaders almost every year but just stick with archery. I ended up not hunting this season until opening day of muzzleloader. I may get into muzzleloader for next season.

 

[RoyalPrudent]

You don't think hunting regulations normally have method restrictions?

What about:
Bow seasons? Muzzleloader seasons? No slugs or rifles or buckshot for turkeys? Magazine capacity for ducks? Shot size restrictions? Electronic callers? Bait? Shooting times? Shooting turkeys from a boat? Roost shooting? Thermal imaging? Artificial lights? Drones? Running deer with dogs? Live decoys?

I can go on if needed.

They do, but msot of the things you've sighted above, though clearly method restrictions, aren't intended to control the buck harvest. They're there for other reasons. You don't need me to walk through the reasons, because you already know them. Magazine capacity to control the duck harvest I'll concede is to control the duck harvest, but that's not what we were talking about. Roost shooting is legal. Electronic calls for deer are legal in tennessee though bait isn't. Wonder why that is?

The reality is, many regulation formed around "ethics" that weren't based in science, but rather the culture. It's why we still have too many people that will harvest a spike before a doe intentionally.

 

[RoyalPrudent]

Weapon types have a GREAT deal to do with harvests, and are the over riding reasons for differences in season lengths and bag limits for the different weapons. TWRA biologists calculated years ago the time period it took to kill 10,000 deer. It took a significantly longer period to do it with archery than with centerfire guns. As the weapon efficiency increased, the number of days to kill the 10,000 (and multiples thereof) greatly decreased. That is why there can be an extremely long archery season without much effect on the overall harvest.

With the exception of certain WMAs with localized safety issues, the methods limits have VERY little to do with safety concerns. It all comes back to weapon efficiency and harvest objectives.

I understand that, but we're talking specifically about 2.5 buck harvest. If you think he's right, I'll defer to you. But it's my understanding that we still need to increase harvest in most of the state, and that weapon type has nothing t do with buck or doe harvest specifically.

 

[RoyalPrudent]

I suppose there is already a reasonable harvest comparison between 'gun' season and 'ML' season in Tennessee.since unit CWD is using rifles while the rest of the state is using muzzleloaders.

Is the kill that much lower in the rest of the state using MLs than unit CWD?

really good thought.