Straight wall cartridges for muzzleloader?

[Smells Like Sulfur]

I do t get it either...with everything but a slug illegal....

I've always thought about hunting deer out of my side-by-side black powder muzzleloader using three .490 caliber patch round balls (same as most modern ML's, which are totally legal deer, ammunition, just too much of it). You could probably develop some kind of sabot that holds them together when they come out of the barrel and then breaks them apart a few inches later. It's pretty close to the maximum load, and I know one of those balls will drop a deer, much less six. The kinetic energy of being hit by three 177 grain lead balls in somewhat close proximity, at about 1000fps, to each other is devastating, and I have a second barrel for a follow-up shot, which is a luxury that most muzzleloading hunters don't have. As long as the hunter doesn't try for a "lucky" shot, I don't see how using large caliber buckshot would be considered not humane.

Yes, I know it's illegal, and no I won't do it, it's just something I've thought about.

I would guess the no shotgun law is in place to prevent idiots with #1 or #0 trying to take anything at 100 yds, or shooting 000 buck into the sky where it eventually falls down.

 

[Smells Like Sulfur]

I think it would be interesting to see a provision for straight walled, black powder only cartridges. There's nothing primitive about a straight walled modern cartridge made on a highly precise machine with smokeless powder.

 

[scn]

Why are shotguns illegal in the first place? I'm new at this, and genuinely do not understand. I do get the requirements for shot size to make a humane kill, but with 000 and 0000 buck, I don't think humane kills would be much of an issue, at least in my close quarters hunting.

Shotguns are legal in all of the deer, bear, and elk seasons. You just have to use a single projectile.

The buckshot issue in TN goes back many decades. Believe it or not, TN at one time had VERY few deer across the whole state. There were some remnant populations in a very few locations. One of the major illegal deer hunting activities in those years keeping those populations low was deer hunting with dogs. And, the weapon/ammo of choice for the illegal doggers was a 12 ga. with buckshot. There were a considerable number of conflicts between the illegal doggers and other hunters. At least one confrontation down in SW TN resulted in a homicide by a dogger.

When the state got serious about deer restoration in the mid-late seventies, buckshot was outlawed for any hunting in the state. There were a couple of counties that had Private Acts that allowed it, but, I think those have been done away with.

There are also serious safety issues with buckshot. There were numerous hunting fatalities over the years from "brush shots" due to the impression that with buckshot you didn't have to have a precise aiming point. And, with buckshot (00), you are sending 9 .32 cal pellets out in an every growing pattern that are lethal for a long way.

I have learned to never say never about what might be done with the wildlife laws and regs, but, I would be VERY surprised to see buckshot made legal.

 

[Tenntrapper]

Shotguns are legal in all of the deer, bear, and elk seasons. You just have to use a single projectile.

The buckshot issue in TN goes back many decades. Believe it or not, TN at one time had VERY few deer across the whole state. There were some remnant populations in a very few locations. One of the major illegal deer hunting activities in those years keeping those populations low was deer hunting with dogs. And, the weapon/ammo of choice for the illegal doggers was a 12 ga. with buckshot. There were a considerable number of conflicts between the illegal doggers and other hunters. At least one confrontation down in SW TN resulted in a homicide by a dogger.

When the state got serious about deer restoration in the mid-late seventies, buckshot was outlawed for any hunting in the state. There were a couple of counties that had Private Acts that allowed it, but, I think those have been done away with.

There are also serious safety issues with buckshot. There were numerous hunting fatalities over the years from "brush shots" due to the impression that with buckshot you didn't have to have a precise aiming point. And, with buckshot (00), you are sending 9 .32 cal pellets out in an every growing pattern that are lethal for a long way.

I have learned to never say never about what might be done with the wildlife laws and regs, but, I would be VERY surprised to see buckshot made legal.

Good!! Can you imagine getting "pepper'd" with buckshot? Think of the last time you went to a public dove field..who all has been pepper'd? People don't pay attention...or care where they are shooting.
Back in the 80s, I was deer hunting on one side of a river. (Wearing orange) I was walking across a cut cornfield (less than knee high). Quail hunters on the other side pepper'd my butt 3 times....each time me yelling at them...WTF??. Each time they apologized...then done it again. Right or wrong....third time they did it I fired back. (I didn't shoot "at" them, just got their attention).
They loaded up their dogs and left.

 

[Bone Collector]

Disagree very much in your statement on effectiveness between the two. While modern muzzleloaders have somewhat closed the gap, there is still a major difference between the two.

I agree. The only 3.5 yer old buck I saw this past season was at 200 yds in the open. He had broke his left side up pretty bad. I wasn't gonna shoot him but thought if I wanted to that's a poke with a ML (CVA Acura). If I'm shooting a 45-70 (for instance) I think I feel more comfortable with that shot. With a bolt action .270, etc, I'll take that shot every time.

 

[Bone Collector]

I think it would be interesting to see a provision for straight walled, black powder only cartridges. There's nothing primitive about a straight walled modern cartridge made on a highly precise machine with smokeless powder.

Nor is there anything primitive about inline ML or smokeless ML.

The only difference in a smokeless ML and a single shot modern straight wall cartridge rifle is the loading process.

 

[Lost Lake]

The one major thing about muzzleloaders is exactly what the name says. They have to be loaded from the muzzle. For a second shot, that takes time, no matter how quick someone might be at reloading. That gives game a chance to get away. A single shot centerfire can be loaded very quickly by someone experienced with them.

Then there's the rain and element factors. That's gonna keep a lot of guys at home. I'd guess most hunters won't spend much time in the rain even with modern propellants. With a centerfire, it's game on, no matter the elements.

I hope they keep it muzzleloader only.

 

[44 mag]

Nor is there anything primitive about inline ML or smokeless ML.

The only difference in a smokeless ML and a single shot modern straight wall cartridge rifle is the loading process.

This is my argument as well.

 

[Smells Like Sulfur]

Nor is there anything primitive about inline ML or smokeless ML.

The only difference in a smokeless ML and a single shot modern straight wall cartridge rifle is the loading process.

Agreed.

I hunt exclusively with black powder, I use a CVA inline or a SxS percussion cap shotgun. Hunting with the CVA is like hunting with a regular rifle. The shotgun puts a little more of a challenge on things though. Gave up with flintlocks, getting reliable ignition can be a real PITA, especially with any type of wet weather.

 

[Bone Collector]

Agreed.

I hunt exclusively with black powder, I use a CVA inline or a SxS percussion cap shotgun. Hunting with the CVA is like hunting with a regular rifle. The shotgun puts a little more of a challenge on things though. Gave up with flintlocks, getting reliable ignition can be a real PITA, especially with any type of wet weather.

I agree with most of what you said. Also, just to be clear I do not hunt with only black powder, so I'm sure you know a thing or two about it. However, an in-line muzzleloader is only like a rifle to about 100–150 yards. After that a rifle is far superior to an in-line muzzleloader. I would assume some of these straight wall cartridges being proposed would have the ability to shoot a lot further than 150 yards, as our predecessors in the late 1800s were able to shoot out to ridiculous ranges with some of these cartridges, obviously there is the ease of loading a breach, action rifle versus a muzzleloader.

 

[Bone Collector]

This is my argument as well.

And unfortunately, that will be their argument when they make the case to approve straight wall, cartridges, being legal, and thus calling muzzleloader season, primitive weapon season. Smokeless muzzleloaders are already legal in Tennessee and have been for sometime. There are guys on this forum that shoot deer 200-300 yards away with a smokeless muzzleloader. That is Rifle performance with the stipulation that you actually have to load the components separately down the barrel. That's the only difference. Some people will argue that that's a big enough difference, others are gonna argue that it's not and therefore, if you are going to allow that, then you may as well just allow straight wall cartridges.

 

[FLTENNHUNTER1]

I purchased a Remington UML a couple years ago so no I will stick with it. It truly is an ultimate MZ.

 

[Smells Like Sulfur]

I agree with most of what you said. Also, just to be clear I do not hunt with only black powder, so I'm sure you know a thing or two about it. However, an in-line muzzleloader is only like a rifle to about 100–150 yards. After that a rifle is far superior to an in-line muzzleloader. I would assume some of these straight wall cartridges being proposed would have the ability to shoot a lot further than 150 yards, as our predecessors in the late 1800s were able to shoot out to ridiculous ranges with some of these cartridges, obviously there is the ease of loading a breach, action rifle versus a muzzleloader.

I agree with that. Shooting out past 200 yards and bullet drop gets to be almost uncalculable without a range finder (or known distance). I mostly hunt in the woods and brush, so that's okay with me. In rough terrain, any shot over a hundred yards would be a rarity. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any large open fields, that might change my opinion a little bit though.

That's why I would support straight wall black powder cartridges over just regular straight cartridges, when smokeless is introduced, it is no longer a primitive weapon, imo. Black powder cartridges would give you muzzleloader performance, with the ease of a quick reload.

 

[Smells Like Sulfur]

I purchased a Remington UML a couple years ago so no I will stick with it. It truly is an ultimate MZ.


View attachment 211226

That's one of my dream rifles right there. Beautiful. Was it a conversion, or was that one of the factory ones?

 

[redblood]

IF it becomes legal I would use one. But I hope it never does.

im in same boat. but i hate muzzleloaders so im in

 

[ImThere]

im in same boat. but i hate muzzleloaders so im in

I mostly use my bow during ML these days anyway!! a straight wall cartridge might just change that!

 

[Smells Like Sulfur]

im in same boat. but i hate muzzleloaders so im in

If you don't mind me asking, why do you dislike muzzleloaders? I find them to be quite entertaining, the projectile / powder combinations are just about infinite, and are a lot of fun to play with.

 

[redblood]

If you don't mind me asking, why do you dislike muzzleloaders? I find them to be quite entertaining, the projectile / powder combinations are just about infinite, and are a lot of fun to play with.

i have a savage smokeless and it is a great gun- but i hate trinkets, and it takes trinkets to make them go boom. special powder , primers, weighing powder/powder scales etc, - A single shot straight wall, would just be gun and a bullet. i usually take my bow during muzzy anyway because it is just easier.

 

[Lost Lake]

i have a savage smokeless and it is a great gun- but i hate trinkets, and it takes trinkets to make them go boom. special powder , primers, weighing powder/powder scales etc, - A single shot straight wall, would just be gun and a bullet. i usually take my bow during muzzy anyway because it is just easier.

Didn't you hate and despise bowhunting about a decade ago?

 

[redblood]

i have a savage smokeless and it is a great gun- but i hate trinkets, and it takes trinkets to make them go boom. special powder , primers, weighing powder/powder scales etc, - A single shot straight wall, would just be gun and a bullet. i usually take my bow during muzzy anyway because it is just easier.

Id be fine with shotguns being legal during muzzleloader season, like in illinois.