Straight wall cartridges for muzzleloader?

[Jcalder]

I believe primitive should be primitive......old school percussion cap on a Hawken was advanced......today's muzzle loaders are more advanced than many rifles of the 1970's. I mean surely the deer haven't advanced, they are just an undomesticated goat.

Where in the current regulations is primitive mentioned?

 

[Jcalder]

Has TWRA recalculated weapon efficiency after scopes and smokeless ML era? Ethical 300y shots, no misfires/hangfires. I would argue they are just as effective (or more effective... say compared to a 30-30) as traditional centerfires. If we need to limit buck harvest (and we don't as long as there is a 2 buck limit), we need to limit the effectiveness of muzzleloader season. Plus, ML season used to be 7 days back in the 80s... now it gets 9.days, but TWO weekends of the best hunting when bucks are most vulnerable.

Either take ML season back to PRIMITIVE hunting, or just do away with it altogether.

Muzzleloader season isn't 9 days. And while I do have a smokeless muzzleloader, I don't kill near the deer as I did 15 years ago when I toted a knight. Also, in the current regulations, where does it state PRIMITIVE.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Where in the current regulations is primitive mentioned?

It's not, to my knowledge. We're talking about a proposed regulation change. Even if adopted, TN may not use the "primitive weapons" language, but they won't be able to call it Muzzleloader if rifles are allowed.

 

[Jcalder]

It's not, to my knowledge. We're talking about a proposed regulation change. Even if adopted, TN may not use the "primitive weapons" language, but they won't be able to call it Muzzleloader if rifles are allowed.

Agreed. But the common theme seems to be calling our MUZZLELOADER season a PRIMITIVE season.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Agreed. But the common theme seems to be calling our MUZZLELOADER season a PRIMITIVE season.

Because most states that have liberalized regs to allow straight wall rifles during what use to be "muzzleloader seasons" have renamed those segments "primitive weapons seasons." We are assuming TN will do the same IF this goes through. It's just hypothetical right now.

 

[notgreg]

Regardless of feelings on this particular issue, it seems like the onus should be on the people who want the reg change to explain why it's better than doing nothing. And that the TWRA should be able to communicate how the change will align with their management goals.

If their goals are to increase the harvest of bucks statewide, making this change seems likely to achieve that. Until the downstream effects of that higher harvest start showing up, anyway.

Or maybe they are looking to change the season structure to concentrate opportunities and add in breaks to relieve pressure.

In any case it would be nice to know their thinking on how this would fit into their larger vision. I sure hope the main reason for considering this isn't "people keep asking for it".

 

[Southern Sportsman]

If it happens, it will be to sell more licenses, not to further any particular management goal.

 

[notgreg]

If it happens, it will be to sell more licenses, not to further any particular management goal.

Yeah that's my concern as well.

 

[Smells Like Sulfur]

I say yes. And make shotguns legal too....

Why are shotguns illegal in the first place? I'm new at this, and genuinely do not understand. I do get the requirements for shot size to make a humane kill, but with 000 and 0000 buck, I don't think humane kills would be much of an issue, at least in my close quarters hunting.

 

[Dennis]

If I understand correctly, the argument is that today's modern muzzleloaders are about the same as single shot rifles, so we should allow single shot rifles in muzzleloader season.

I can't say I agree with this idea, but
if that is the argument, why distinguish straight-walled vs non-straight-walled? I think the whole straight walled thing is dumb.

I'm sure someone will say it's because of the range of straight-walled vs non-straight-walled cartridges. But worrying about the range of a rifle cartridge while hunting deer is ridiculous because most deer are shot at close range anyway. Why make things so complicated?

 

[megalomaniac]

If I understand correctly, the argument is that today's modern muzzleloaders are about the same as single shot rifles, so we should allow single shot rifles in muzzleloader season.

I can't say I agree with this idea, but
if that is the argument, why distinguish straight-walled vs non-straight-walled? I think the whole straight walled thing is dumb.

I'm sure someone will say it's because of the range of straight-walled vs non-straight-walled cartridges. But worrying about the range of a rifle cartridge while hunting deer is ridiculous because most deer are shot at close range anyway. Why make things so complicated?

There is no difference in kill rates or effectiveness between the high tech muzzleloaders and centerfire rifles. Since that is now the case, why even have a muzzleloader season. Just allow any weapon.

IF we NEED to reduce harvest during those 2 weeks in November for a biological reason, we NEED to go back to what ML season was intended to be, way before the modern bastardization and exploitation of the rules. Flintlock, percussion caps, max effective range of 75 yards.

 

[Iroquois]

Alot of great points made by everyone, hard to argue the majority of them. I could be wrong, but I think TWRA is looking for a way to raise more revenue since license sales have been down. I believe this will go hand in hand on thier new "deer management plan" coming in the near future. If they decide to manage deer by regional data and not as a whole by state, they may decide to increase the bag limits in certain regions. Straight walled cartridges would certainly help achieve that. This is just my opinion, I could be way off base here.

 

[scn]

There is no difference in kill rates or effectiveness between the high tech muzzleloaders and centerfire rifles. Since that is now the case, why even have a muzzleloader season. Just allow any weapon.

IF we NEED to reduce harvest during those 2 weeks in November for a biological reason, we NEED to go back to what ML season was intended to be, way before the modern bastardization and exploitation of the rules. Flintlock, percussion caps, max effective range of 75 yards.

Disagree very much in your statement on effectiveness between the two. While modern muzzleloaders have somewhat closed the gap, there is still a major difference between the two.

 

[Smells Like Sulfur]

I wonder how much Remington, and their new 360 buckhammer, designed specifically for straight walled cartridge states lobbied Tennessee to get this law passed. Whether it was directly, or indirectly, I can guarantee you that there someone representing Remington was there during any kind of hearing.

For real, if you wanted to go to straight wall hunting, just buy an existing cartridge, there's plenty of them already developed and time-tested.

45-70 gvt, .350 legend, 450 nitro express, and even 10mm (arguably) have been proven to be effective hunting cartridges. I don't know why we need more, other than companies trying to sell new products. I'd like to see the boxes of shelves full of ammunition for guns that already exist, rather than for ones that have just come out, and very few people own.

I think muzzleloader season should be an actual traditional weapon season. Flint and cap only, and maybe add week of CVA-type 209 primer guns for those of us that already own them.

I've taken more game with a cap lock SxS shotgun than anything else, and I've taken shots considered impressive even with a modern rifle.

I'm all for modern rifles, but I also like the idea of giving people who want to go out and experience hunting and its traditional form a chance to do so. There's just something different about taking game with lead that you have cast, from a gun that you built, and powder that you have milled.

 

[mike243]

You can hunt with a straight wall rifle during rifle season , why should we give up muzzle loader season for another man bun cartridge, nobody is stopping them from using them, only telling to use them when the other rifles are legal

 

[notgreg]

Disagree very much in your statement on effectiveness between the two. While modern muzzleloaders have somewhat closed the gap, there is still a major difference between the two.

There is no difference in kill rates or effectiveness between the high tech muzzleloaders and centerfire rifles. Since that is now the case, why even have a muzzleloader season. Just allow any weapon.

IF we NEED to reduce harvest during those 2 weeks in November for a biological reason, we NEED to go back to what ML season was intended to be, way before the modern bastardization and exploitation of the rules. Flintlock, percussion caps, max effective range of 75 yards.

I take your point about the increased effectiveness of modern inlines. But another angle…

I don't know where to find the numbers, but I have to imagine that the number of general gun licenses sold is quite a bit higher than the number of muzzleloader licenses(may be way wrong here, though). Probably a combo of reasons: muzzleloaders are more annoying to deal with, some people can't afford another gun, etc. something is (I'm guessing) keeping a pretty significant number of hunters out of the woods in mz season. Have to assume a chunk of those folks on the sidelines would pile into that mz season if it were open to certain rifles.

Maybe TWRA would love to see the same
number of people in the woods during mz as rifle season, but would I? Eh.

And while I agree that the practical difference between a new muzzleloader and the rifles under consideration isn't very large, I don't know anyone who keeps lugging their muzzleloader into the woods once they have the option to switch mid-Nov., and this thread is proof that there are plenty who would do the opposite given the chance. So in the minds of most hunters there must be some difference.

 

[Dully]

ML gets 14 days. NOV 4-17 I think I used to be able to find harvest data broken down into weapons instead of just dates, antlered, and antlerless but can't find it. I wonder how many deer are killed by bow during muzzleloader season and now rife comes into play for CWD.

I've considered buying and learning muzzleloaders almost every year but just stick with archery. I ended up not hunting this season until opening day of muzzleloader. I may get into muzzleloader for next season.

I like to bow hunt,but our weather over the last 20+ years has gotten to hot in archery season,now seams like its moved into ml season

 

[Jcalder]

Why are shotguns illegal in the first place? I'm new at this, and genuinely do not understand. I do get the requirements for shot size to make a humane kill, but with 000 and 0000 buck, I don't think humane kills would be much of an issue, at least in my close quarters hunting.

Buckshot is not legal for deer in Tn

 

[Carlos]

Buckshot is not legal for deer in Tn

Ironic isn't it, with such a name.

 

[Bloodwolf1984]

Why are shotguns illegal in the first place? I'm new at this, and genuinely do not understand. I do get the requirements for shot size to make a humane kill, but with 000 and 0000 buck, I don't think humane kills would be much of an issue, at least in my close quarters hunting.

I do t get it either...with everything but a slug illegal....