Straight wall cartridges for muzzleloader?

[PillsburyDoughboy]

To each his own I say.

My only fear is if they approve these that we will never introduce young people to the joys of Muzzleloading and the art will be lost 20 30 years down the road. And all you will have left is rifle season. Which the way I understand some of you want it that way.

 

[megalomaniac]

Well compound bows could be considered cheating also with cams and sights and triggers, mechanical broad heads, how about long bow only for bow season?

So... your analogy is correct... except when you put it into practice....

A primitive longbow is limited to 25 yard shots max. Step up to super fancy crossbows, and now you are limited to 50-60y max ethical shots.

A primitive muzzleloader is limited to 75y max. Step up to modern smokeless ML's at 2500 fps MV and you extend out to 250y ethical shots.

see what I'm talking about?

 

[megalomaniac]

I can offer some insight as to what will likely happen if they do go this route. In both MS and LA, once they allowed the centerfire cartridges in, muzzleloaders became virtually worthless, because almost everyone chose the new option. Then supplies became hard to find for anyone who didn't swap weapons. 38-55 , 35 Whelen, .444, 45-70, and probably a few even less common cartridges are about all you see in the woods now.
Then, in MS, it went to this... "During any open season on deer with primitive weapons after November 30, a person may use any legal weapon of choice on private lands only, if the person is the title owner of the land, the lessee of the hunting rights on the land, a member of a hunting club leasing the hunting rights on the land, or a guest of a person specified above."
In my opinion, it appears that they are headed toward any weapon all season, which really threatens bow hunting. And that will be a real shame! And, if it happens there, it can happen here. All of these agencies attend the Southeastern Deer Study Group meetings each year. And, you can bet that that gets the wheels to turning when they hear stories from other states. From an enforcement point of view, simple regulations make sense. I spoke out against this change, for all of the reasons I just wrote about here...

We went down the 'slippery slope' of MLs a couple decades ago. Allow scopes, 'cause its still loaded from the muzzle. Allow inlines, 'cause it's still loaded from the muzzle'. Allow saboted bullets, 'cause their still loaded from the muzzle', Allow smokeless powder, 'cause it's still loaded from the muzzle'. The whole ML industry has been just a game of manufactures taking advantage of folks trying to game the system. And as technology has advanced, the rules have been skirted. Which is fine, hunters always want to take every advantage they can. And manufacturers have made a fortune out of producing a product worthless of any other purpose than a small 9 day season of use (as opposed to traditional 'guns' which can be used to hunt with and provide self defense).

Think about it... all the billions spent on muzzleloaders... IF all state game agencies realized ML season was no longer necessary, as they are just as effective as any other 'gun' with the first shot... and the state game agencies allowed 'any' weapon during ML season. Well. the folks who spent 1.5 grand on their fancy smokeless ML's would find out their weapon was worth nothing (because who in their right mind would spend $1500 on a smokeless ML that is worthless when it comes to home defense and provides no advantage to additional hunting days) And that causes a lot of butthurt

Game populations first.... do whatever it takes to ensure we aren't overharvesting animals. After that, FREEDOM, MURICA! Use whatever you want. Me personally, I'd wish I hadn't wasted $4000 on 6 different ML's I have sitting in my closet. That $$$ would have been better spent on multiple AR platforms and a stockpile of thousands of rounds of ammo for them. Hindsight is 20/20... but that was the game I had to play.

 

[TITANSFAN2104]

I'd rather go the other direction and only allow flint or cap lock before I'd want to allow CENTERFIRE during muzzleloader.

Some things are supposed to have certain levels of difficulty, and they might not be for everyone. I just don't understand the mentality of making everything easy. What's next, does everyone get a free participation trophy with their muzzleloader license?

Allowing CF during ML, At that point they might as well just make it rifle season from oct to feb.

 

[TITANSFAN2104]

So... your analogy is correct... except when you put it into practice....

A primitive longbow is limited to 25 yard shots max. Step up to super fancy crossbows, and now you are limited to 50-60y max ethical shots.

A primitive muzzleloader is limited to 75y max. Step up to modern smokeless ML's at 2500 fps MV and you extend out to 250y ethical shots.

see what I'm talking about?

Shoooottt... my smokeless is slinging a 300 gr bullet at 2800 fps (338 lapua numbers)
It would reach 1k but I haven't shot it that far. 425 yards is as far as I have shot and truth be told I think its the most accurate rifle in my safe. Ive had it shoot a .155 3 shot group and the 4th shot pulled a little and opened to .73

 

[mike243]

Who decides the level of technology to be used on any weapon, compound bows have close to the same speed as crossbows so the distance will be close, either allow any weapon or keep it as it has been imo, i love muzzle loader hunting no matter sidelock flint or inline, inlines have been around longer than folks realize. Crossbows have been around a really long time

 

[CrossVolle]

Who decides the level of technology to be used on any weapon, compound bows have close to the same speed as crossbows so the distance will be close, either allow any weapon or keep it as it has been imo, i love muzzle loader hunting no matter sidelock flint or inline, inlines have been around longer than folks realize. Crossbows have been around a really long time

My compound is shooting a 525 grain arrow at 265-270 FPS. My BiL crossbow chronos over 450 FPS and it is shoulder mounted. The only thing that is similar with the weapons systems is the broad heads.

 

[Smo]

If straight wall cartridges become legal during muzzleloader will you use them?

Only if they can be loaded from the muzzle…
Otherwise , it's just another gun..

 

[RoyalPrudent]

I should have been more specific. My apologies. The 2.5 year old bucks get slaughtered.

Then you want a different buck requirement. Not sure what your concern has to do with Muzzleloaders at all.

 

[CrossVolle]

Then you want a different buck requirement. Not sure what your concern has to do with Muzzleloaders at all.

No. People are going to shoot what they are going to shoot. That will never change. I desire less opportunity to do that with a shoulder mounted weapon of any kind. Different strokes for different folks. We do not have to agree.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Then you want a different buck requirement. Not sure what your concern has to do with Muzzleloaders at all.

Pretty simple really. Deer hunters tend to disproportionately kill 2.5 yr old bucks because they often have decent antlers (compared to yearlings) but they tend to disperse farther and have a bad habit of moving around in broad daylight. Allowing people to use rifles during "muzzleloader" season would be primarily to sell more licenses — which means more people hunting during those two weeks. Which means more people disproportionately killing 2.5 yr old bucks during pre-rut and early rut when they are most susceptible.

 

[knightrider]

Pretty simple really. Deer hunters tend to disproportionately kill 2.5 yr old bucks because they often have decent antlers (compared to yearlings) but they tend to disperse farther and have a bad habit of moving around in broad daylight. Allowing people to use rifles during "muzzleloader" season would be primarily to sell more licenses — which means more people hunting during those two weeks. Which means more people disproportionately killing 2.5 yr old bucks during pre-rut and early rut when they are most susceptible.

And there is not a thing wrong with that if they are happy shooting 2.5 year old bucks! No matter if he dies at 1.5 or 6.5 he is just as dead , shoot what makes you happy and dont wirry about what makes others happy!

 

[RoyalPrudent]

Pretty simple really. Deer hunters tend to disproportionately kill 2.5 yr old bucks because they often have decent antlers (compared to yearlings) but they tend to disperse farther and have a bad habit of moving around in broad daylight. Allowing people to use rifles during "muzzleloader" season would be primarily to sell more licenses — which means more people hunting during those two weeks. Which means more people disproportionately killing 2.5 yr old bucks during pre-rut and early rut when they are most susceptible.

Any proof that this wouldn't just offset the normal 2.5 kill in rifle?

 

[Southern Sportsman]

And there is not a thing wrong with that if they are happy shooting 2.5 year old bucks! No matter if he dies at 1.5 or 6.5 he is just as dead , shoot what makes you happy and dont wirry about what makes others happy!

I have absolutely no problem with everyone shooting whatever deer makes them happy. Period. But knowing that people will shoot whatever makes them happy, I do have an issue with the state watering down the regulations so that everyone can do so all the time with as little effort as possible.

 

[RoyalPrudent]

Pretty simple really. Deer hunters tend to disproportionately kill 2.5 yr old bucks because they often have decent antlers (compared to yearlings) but they tend to disperse farther and have a bad habit of moving around in broad daylight. Allowing people to use rifles during "muzzleloader" season would be primarily to sell more licenses — which means more people hunting during those two weeks. Which means more people disproportionately killing 2.5 yr old bucks during pre-rut and early rut when they are most susceptible.

and as I said, what you really want is new buck requirements. If you care about the age that bucks are killed, then you either change the number of bucks killed or the minimum requirement. Weapon shouldn't be taken into consideration.

 

[RoyalPrudent]

I have absolutely no problem with everyone shooting whatever deer makes them happy. Period. But knowing that people will shoot whatever makes them happy, I do have an issue with the state watering down the regulations so that everyone can do so all the time with as little effort as possible.

I'm pretty sure we don't harvest enough deer as it is.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

Any proof that this wouldn't just offset the normal 2.5 kill in rifle?

Do I have "proof" that more people hunting during the first two weeks of November—and hunting with rifles instead of muzzleloaders—will result in more 2.5 yr old deer being killed during the season?

No. And I'm not going to spend much time compiling empirical data to "prove" something so obvious.

 

[CrossVolle]

I'm pretty sure we don't harvest enough deer as it is.

Then pile the does to the ceiling. No shortage of them from Bristol to Memphis.

 

[RoyalPrudent]

Then pile the does to the ceiling. No shortage of them from Bristol to Memphis.

exactly my point. Neither one of your complaints is about Muzzleloaders. YOURE WORRIED ABOUT BUCK HARVEST.

It's an entirely different issue. Honestly, I'd support the one buck limit statewide. Would you?

 

[CrossVolle]

exactly my point. Neither one of your complaints is about Muzzleloaders. YOURE WORRIED ABOUT BUCK HARVEST.

It's an entirely different issue. Honestly, I'd support the one buck limit statewide. Would you?

It's all the same issue. People are going to shoot what they are going to shoot. I'm fine with that. I just don't think we need to be making it easier to perform the task when all that will result in is even more does running around, and less deer making it to 3. Of course im concerned with the buck harvest. That's the point of this entire discussion. Improving the age class not slaughtering it with milk on their mouth. Why shoot the basket rack 2 year old and let the 3 does not even close to coming into estrus he's pushing walk by? If it makes you happy, roll his ass with a smile on your face. That is fine. No issue. But I don't think it is absurd that many are concerned with the age class already, and even more concerned about means being put forth to compound the issue even further.

A 1 buck limit is a pipe dream but would be awesome.