School me on Presidents Island

[Mike Belt]

You lost me on that one AT. Not sure what you're asking. Either way, PI isn't really a gamble considering you know on the front end you don't stand a chance for the first 10 years. That sounds more like a sure bet to me. Every year there's no flood involved improves the chances at more deer using the island in the future. I don't think hunter involvement influences the deer numbers one way or the other.

 

[TN Larry]

Let's say a person should draw the Island this year, but decides to apply with someone who has no points so they can build another years worth. Would this be a decent gamble to hopefully improve the population (buck age class too).

Of course ownership could change hands and/or another flood. Just thinking of a strategy since this last fall seemed to be a down year for the island.


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It would be a decent gamble assuming that ownership doesn't change or another flood happens. Last year's age structure and antler score were a little off, but I still think that the success rate was on par. Me personally, I would draw next year if I could. I don't know if the risk that something changes is worth the reward of possibly the hunt being better in the coming years.

 

[megalomaniac]

it's all a gamble....

I'm sitting on max points for antelope in Wyoming... was planning on hunting this year, but with the insane snowfall and expected massive die-off, it looks like I'll be holding out for another few years.... Last massive dieoff was 2011 in Wyoming... was just getting great again until this winter

 

[ghostdance56]

I hunted in 2013 during an thunderstorm followed by freezing rain; from what I saw I would hunt it again. I didn't have the max number of points. Maybe a lot of people just bought a preference point and didn't apply is why I was drawn.
Did no one notice the response from the person that has hunted 3 times? And he lives in Germantown which is spitting distance of the Island.
There are other people I talked to that have hunted the Island more than once or twice.
So I'm guessing the evidence shows that you don't necessarily have to have the max number of points.
TN doesn't have any other quota hunts worth applying for; my buddy and I both have our lifetime license so we apply every year; doesn't cost anything.
There were some really old dudes hunting it the year I did.
Heck as long as I can hold up at least a crossbow and waddle into the woods I'm gonna keep applying! The wardens will help retrieve the buck.
Why not! :super:

 

[Mike Belt]

It's possible to apply successfully on the doe hunts multiple years. It isn't on the buck hunt since they went to a cumulative point system after the second or third year of the hunts.

 

[fairchaser]

What about Ensley? No one talks about it but the stats are almost as good there. How does the flooding affect Ensley? How many points does it take to get drawn there? Opinions?

 

[Bone Collector]

There are other people I talked to that have hunted the Island more than once or twice.
So I'm guessing the evidence shows that you don't necessarily have to have the max number of points.

Back in the day you didn't. Once everyone found out about it and started putting in, you did. I heard about one time in 2003, if i had started putting in then, I probably would have been drawn twice by now.

Instead I am waiting and because I am a doofus, I have less points than i should.

Hopefully it will still be a WMA by the time i draw. If not I will have my choice of hunt. :lol:

 

[easy45]

Took me 9 years to get drawn, hunted in 2014 and killed a 136" 9 point, it's the only quota hunt I'll ever put in for.


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[Headhunter]

Never put in for it and I won't. I will not spend however many years it takes to get drawn and then you cannot shoot a 130", 140" or 150" deer if it walks by, with a bow. You can shoot an 80, 90, or 100 inch buck just because it has 9 or more points. Poor management decision that is just wrong. There should be someway to let someone kill what is a "book" deer with a bow without hurting the herd.

 

[Mike Belt]

My take on PI is that if you never apply for any other draw hunts then you miss out on nothing by tying up your time and efforts applying for PI... even if it's a 10 or 11 year ordeal. You will eventually be drawn and whether you go or not is entirely up to you. I 100% don't agree with their 9 point restriction. With no more hunters and no more hunting as is done and considering it's archery only I highly doubt they'll hurt the population at all. Considering the fact that most hunters will never draw down on a 135"+ buck anywhere else, it just seems such a waste to have these 7 and 8 pointers that may score much more than that dying of old age. I suspect more die of old age than would be shot by archers. On the flip side to that I do think there should be a minimum size limit regardless of the number of points but I suspect there are many that 100% don't agree with that either. In any event, PI gives a lot of hunters the opportunity to kill a buck the likes they'd probably never be able to elsewhere, and if the Island ever gets back to pre-flood populations, the sign you see is worth the trip.

 

[Grnwing]

The 9 pt restriction almost guarantees that you are shooting a mature buck. I don't have the statistics on hand but bucks with 9 or more points are almost always 3.5+. President Island isn't managed for Trophy deer but mature bucks. Yes, there are bucks there that will die of old age and not sport a rack with more than 7 or 8 points but there are a lot more bucks that roam around there with 7 or 8 points that are not mature bucks. There isn't a perfect way to manage or guarantee you are shooting a mature buck that every hunter would be able to implement. It's not a perfect system but by the demand for the hunts, I would say that state is doing something right with how they manage it.

 

[Mike Belt]

Grnwing... Curious... have you ever been on the buck hunt there? The year I went the rut should have "supposedly" been over. Not so. They were chasing does left and right and fresh car hood sized scrapes were everywhere. There were 4 of us that went together. All of us saw several 150+" bucks but none had 9 points. Those that did didn't offer shots. As far as I can tell the only management tool that got them that size was restricting hunters to archery, having only 1 hunt for the year, and enacting the 9 point rule. If you had of been there and had 8 pointers walking around under your stand that had tremendous mass and would have scored in the 150-160's and were obviously 5.5+ years old or older you'd probably back off somewhat on your opinion about the 9 point rule. In my opinion a size limit would accomplish about the same thing and to me it's easier at a glance to field judge inches than it is to determine if a buck running through undergrowth at a distance has 9 points or more. This was the pre-flood era and as I understand it the deer have yet to rebound to those numbers. Regardless of that, the 9 point rule was in effect even then.

 

[TheLBLman]

The 9 pt restriction almost guarantees that you are shooting a mature buck.

Actually, about all it almost guarantees is you're not going to ever shoot a yearling.
Most top-end 2 1/2's actually have 9 or 10 points, and are killed at a higher rate with the 9-pt rule
than they would be killed with no antler restrictions at all.

And if most bucks that do have 9 points were killed,
it pretty much guarantees most of the best antlered 2 1/2 & 3 1/2-yr-old bucks would be killed prior to their maturity.
(Weird as it may sound to some, you might have more higher-scoring mature bucks on PI with no antler restrictions at all.)

But the 9-pt rule absolutely guarantees that any mature bucks growing only 8 points are never legal deer,
even when they score very high and would be the buck of a lifetime to most hunters.
This is a legitimate issue because many never grow more than 8,
and many mature 8-pointers have much larger, higher-scoring antlers than the 9-pointers being killed.

The biggest "issue" I have with the 9-pt restriction is
it's simply unnecessary in this Presidents Island application.
IMO, it actually causes more harm than good,
at least to the public land hunters being drawn for the bowhunt on PI.

Those gun hunting the private property on PI love the 9-pt rule,
for which they are not required to abide.

Many find a 150-class mature 8-pointer a far better "trophy"
than a 170-class mature 12-pointer.
Side by side, both legal,
most hunters would choose the lower scoring 8-pointer as the better "trophy".
Which would YOU choose?

 

[Headhunter]

The 9 pt restriction almost guarantees that you are shooting a mature buck. I don't have the statistics on hand but bucks with 9 or more points are almost always 3.5+. President Island isn't managed for Trophy deer but mature bucks. Yes, there are bucks there that will die of old age and not sport a rack with more than 7 or 8 points but there are a lot more bucks that roam around there with 7 or 8 points that are not mature bucks. There isn't a perfect way to manage or guarantee you are shooting a mature buck that every hunter would be able to implement. It's not a perfect system but by the demand for the hunts, I would say that state is doing something right with how they manage it.

Nope, I disagree, in NO WAY does it guarantee you are shooting a mature buck.

 

[TheLBLman]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong,
but I believe the average 9-pointer killed statewide is 2 1/2 years of age.

 

[Ahuntin1]

Many find a 150-class mature 8-pointer a far better "trophy"
than a 170-class mature 12-pointer.
Side by side, both legal,
most hunters would choose the lower scoring 8-pointer as the better "trophy".
Which would YOU choose?

I'd beg to differ on that! I am sure there are a decent amount of folks that would. I am pretty sure that most hunters are gonna shoot the biggest framed rack if they were ever faced with the choice. If both were legal at PI, I would bet a large majority would shoot this first one that presented an opportunity. The real variable in your argument is mainframe vs stickers. It's pretty rare for a buck to to have more than 10 mainframe points around here. But a lot of bucks around here do get sticker/kickers as they mature. It would be cool to see a breakdown on that statistic. Too bad TWRA does not keep those numbers.

 

[fairchaser]

The reason for the nine point rule is that hunters can not score or age bucks on the hoof without a lot of practice but every one can count to nine. If they allowed 8 pointers shot then they would harvest too many bucks. They don't really care whether a buck is mature or not as long as only a limited number are killed. I've hunted there and passed on young nine points and passed on mature 8 points that were studs. Even if they required everyone to attend a class on scoring and aging bucks, it takes real life practice to get good enough to be effective. There is really no other practical method to do it.

 

[Grnwing]

Actually, about all it almost guarantees is you're not going to ever shoot a yearling.
Most top-end 2 1/2's actually have 9 or 10 points, and are killed at a higher rate with the 9-pt rule
than they would be killed with no antler restrictions at all.

That is the statistics I was referring to and I had misspoke earlier. The PI being a high quality soil region would most likely support 3.5 year olds having greater than 7+ points based on the research from MSU see link (http://www.msudeerlab.com/antler_restrictions.asp) Increasing buck age structure starts with protecting your yearling bucks implementing the 9pt rule is easy enough for any hunter that would draw to be able to shoot a buck without having to know how to age a deer. Using anyone criteria to kill a buck is going to allow for error on properly aging but with public land, I do not see the TWRA implementing an age and antler score/point restriction. Unless they required the ones who drew a tag to attend a course to properly learn how to age a buck in the field, again not likely to happen.

Many find a 150-class mature 8-pointer a far better "trophy"
than a 170-class mature 12-pointer.
Side by side, both legal,
most hunters would choose the lower scoring 8-pointer as the better "trophy".
Which would YOU choose?

I d shoot the 12 pointer- 8 pointer is protected oke:
I do have a 5pt on my farm that I have had on camera from 2012 that is still at 5pt and atleast 5.5 this year that will get an arrow if I am presented the opportunity.

Nope, I disagree, in NO WAY does it guarantee you are shooting a mature buck.

You ARE correct

I am unable to find any data on the number of 2.5/3.5/4.5/5.5+ yo harvested on the PI hunt and curious if anyone can produce that. I think we could all agree that a combination of age and antler score would yield as a better management criteria than using antler points alone. Until that changes, I think the TWRA is doing a good job in managing PI for quota hunt that allows a hunter to witness some great deer that they may not see on their home ground.

 

[TheLBLman]

I am pretty sure that most hunters are gonna shoot the biggest framed rack if they were ever faced with the choice.

Thank You, that was my point:
The larger rack is generally considered the greater "trophy", regardless the number of antler tines.

But as you alluded, I should have more clearly stated "mainframe" points in comparing a 150-class 8-pointer to a 170-class 12-pointer.
Perhaps the "point" would have been better made by just comparing a 150-class 8-point mainframe to a 150-class 10-pt mainframe?

The real variable in your argument is mainframe vs stickers. It's pretty rare for a buck to to have more than 10 mainframe points around here. But a lot of bucks around here do get sticker/kickers as they mature. It would be cool to see a breakdown on that statistic.

You are correct about that.
Interestingly, the longstanding Tennessee State Record Typical (taken by Sonny Foster in 1959) was a mainframe 12-pointer.

The reason for the nine point rule is that hunters can not score or age bucks on the hoof without a lot of practice but every one can count to nine.

I can't disagree with that.
But, strictly in regard to PI with their one weekend annual buck hunt,
I doubt the hunter error rate would be much different with a "reasonable" minimum buck age or score criteria instead of that 9-point rule.
Sometimes a buck has a point measuring 7/8", and it's not counted (post-mortem) because it's not an inch or more in length,
that hunter's buck is then confiscated, and the hunter fined for taking an illegal deer.

If extra restrictions are desired, why not have multiple criteria?
Either/or criteria, like minimum age, or minimum score, or those 9 points?

If they allowed 8 pointers shot then they would harvest too many bucks.

That MIGHT be true at Ames Plantation,
but no way it would be the case at PI when there is only a single weekend of archery-only buck hunting allowed annually.
That very limited (and archery-only) hunting is what prevents many bucks from being killed on PI.
The main reason any area MIGHT need "restrictions" is typically because of relatively heavy hunting,
at least relatively heavy compared to 3 days annually, archery-only.
"3 days" annually is almost nothing compared to 75 days of rifle + 35 days of archery preceding it (our statewide).

They don't really care whether a buck is mature or not as long as only a limited number are killed.

That would appear to be the case,
and I'd personally prefer to see a few younger bucks killed in exchange for a few more middle-aged ones to reach maturity.
What survives works out about the same, regardless of the ages of the bucks killed, so long as only a limited number are killed.

There is really no other practical method to do it.

But there is.
Simply have no additional extra antler criteria whatsoever (at PI).
Having only 3 days of annual buck hunting is already enough to guarantee a very limited number get killed.

 

[TheLBLman]

Here's another way to think about this.

Let's say the Ames Plantation Hunting Club suddenly decided annual buck hunting would be limited to 3 days annually, archery-only,
and the current membership level would remain unchanged.

Would ANY antler restrictions be necessary?