New Article on CWD by Dr. Alan Houston, Ames Plantation

[CBU93]

Landscape, environment, herd dynamics, subspecies, weather, hunting culture….

 

[Jcalder]

Landscape, environment, herd dynamics, subspecies, weather, hunting culture….

But that's not what cwd has done

 

[CBU93]

What I am saying is the effects of CWD in the southeastern whitetail herd will be far different from the other areas you and others are comparing. Give it four years in Alabama and North Carolina.

 

[Jcalder]

What I am saying is the effects of CWD in the southeastern whitetail herd will be far different from the other areas you and others are comparing. Give it four years in Alabama and North Carolina.

No it won't. I don't know of a bigger bunch of hunters than the "Wisconsin state army" that hits the woods every fall. A bunch of brown and downers. Maybe Pennsylvania and Michigan would give them a run for their money. Cwd is not what's gonna hurt your herd. It's the policies in place. If the regulations stayed as they were things would be still be the same.

 

[Jcalder]

You want something that's hell on a deer herd, ehd. I'm not so sure our area recovered after 2007 and we've had a couple bad years since then.

 

[Andy S.]

You want something that's hell on a deer herd, ehd. I'm not so sure our area recovered after 2007 and we've had a couple bad years since then.

I remember the 2007 summer drought, EHD outbreak and fall hunting season like it was last year. TWRA estimated 40% mortality in some parts of the State that summer. My local observations mirrored their assessment. 2017 EHD was pretty rough for some as well.

 

[jman 125]

I remember the 2007 summer drought, EHD outbreak and fall hunting season like it was last year. TWRA estimated 40% mortality in some parts of the State that summer. My local observations mirrored their assessment. 2017 EHD was pretty rough for some as well.

I know for a fact the epicenter for the 2007 outbreak in middle tn was a whole lot worse than what people realize.
We are still recovering on our farms and if we dont start seeing some measurable rain soon its goi g to happen again.

 

[fairchaser]

There's a key difference between CWD and EHD or other diseases that kill deer. The latter maybe more severe at times but it's sporadic and temporary. It may hit hard and then be gone for years. The herd can recover. It's caused by something outside the herd. But CWD is in the herd. It's endemic and it never leaves. It's chronic and therefore affects and eventually kills the deer over a period of months or years. The prions are in the environment and never go away. CWD just gnaws away at the herd like termites often hidden from view.

 

[Jcalder]

There's a key difference between CWD and EHD or other diseases that kill deer. The latter maybe more severe at times but it's sporadic and temporary. It may hit hard and then be gone for years. The herd can recover. It's caused by something outside the herd. But CWD is in the herd. It's endemic and it never leaves. It's chronic and therefore affects and eventually kills the deer over a period of months or years. The prions are in the environment and never go away. CWD just gnaws away at the herd like termites often hidden from view.

If that was true, those places that's had it for 20, 40, 60 years wouldn't have any cervids left. I'm not denying the fact it kills deer, but not at the rate you're trying to claim. It just doesn't happen.

Also, doesn't it affect older deer. Specifically bucks. And generally takes a few years before it actually kills the deer.

 

[fairchaser]

If that was true, those places that's had it for 20, 40, 60 years wouldn't have any cervids left. I'm not denying the fact it kills deer, but not at the rate you're trying to claim. It just doesn't happen.

Also, doesn't it affect older deer. Specifically bucks. And generally takes a few years before it actually kills the deer.

Unfortunately no, it affects all deer from birth as they get from their mother. It takes 1-2 years for the deer to die from it. The herd will not become extinct because even if a fawn gets it at birth, they could give birth once before they die and not every deer gets it. So the herd is affected but not become extinct. See Andy's post above for the various ages and percentages of deer that have been found to have CWD.

 

[DeerCamp]

For many of us more "avid" deer hunters, the bigger issue may become the inability to be "hunter-managers" managing localized deer herds we hunt in the biologically sound manners we've been taught, such as having deer harvest goals closer to a balanced sex harvest instead of "buck only".

Having little ability to "manage" our lands for more better balanced buck:doe ratios and an older buck age structure becomes near impossible with the TWRA's "Unit CWD" deer hunting regulations. These regs more or less take us back to the 1990's days of an 11-buck limit, and most hunters not wanting to shoot a doe.

Doe will remain legal in Unit CWD, but most hunters have lost their desire to kill a doe, because most people don't want to eat venison any more, due to the the fear-mongering about CWD.

And it only gets worse.
Due to the new CWD regulations combined with fewer people be even willing to eat venison,
MOST DEER PROCESSING FACILITIES IN "UNIT CWD" counties of TN have CLOSED DOWN!
Not having a "convenient" way for processing deer, this alone will decrease both deer hunting and deer killing.

I was just notified that Yoder Brothers in Henry County, TN is closing down its deer processing facility. They will NOT be processing deer this fall. Yoder Brothers has long-term been one of the largest deer processors in the State of TN.

As to what deer will be killed, it will be mainly bucks, for their antlers, not the meat.

Unfortunately, there will be relatively few bucks 3 1/2 or older in CWD areas (at least after a year or two of the CWD regs). This will cause those longterm "old" accomplished & avid deer hunters to do one of three things:

1) They will go to other counties & states to deer hunt;
2) They will more or less just quit deer hunting;
3) They will die.

I put the "They will die" there because this was already a huge issue, even before CWD regs. Most of the deer hunting, particularly the financial carrying of large deer leases, is being done by "older" avid deer hunters, most of whom are north of Age 65. We were already dying out faster than younger hunters were replacing us. Now many of us are simply leaving the sport sooner, and will no longer be willing to pay high lease prices for greatly devalued deer hunting acreage, which will in turn make many these lands less or unavailable to younger deer hunters.

Note how large deer leases are struggling to find new members to replace those either dying or leaving the sport. The nail in the coffin is when your county is declared a CWD county by TWRA.

Just to be clear, I am not personally so worried about CWD as I am how CWD has been fear-mongered to the general public, and how statewide regulations have been changed to address CWD. This is a case where the treatment may be worse than the disease.

I've already schedule my vacation for opening weekend to head to Oklahoma for a week.

Makes me sad. We've worked really hard here to improve habitat and hunting opportunities.

Handing some trigger happy neighbors even more tags is pretty much gonna finish us off. I haven't seen a deer with antlers since January, and I run 6 cams year round.

 

[DeerCamp]

Very correct.
And, the overall herd health will be greatly reduced for a variety of reasons,
the least of which may be CWD.

Despite the frequent claims many deer hunters make to the contrary,
MOST deer hunters are in fact "horn" hunters.

This is in the context that when a doe is standing beside a "nice" antlered buck,
which of those two deer will MOST deer hunters normally choose to shoot?
Just saying, the pursuit of antlers is one of the factors for which most deer hunting takes place. Take away that factor, the desire for deer hunting is reduced.

For thousands of years, hunters have been fascinated by antlers, and it must be something in our DNA. Most of us also consume the meat from the animals we kill, and being a "horn hunter" is nothing for which to be ashamed. I consider myself more a "hunter-manager" conservationist who enjoys hunting and dining on the wild game I hunt. I also keep the antlers from the bucks I also enjoy eating and the sharing of that venison with family & friends.

I've had a few people tell me they'd rather shoot a doe than a buck.

Never seen one of them pass a chance at a good buck though, and more often than not, it's a young one.

 

[BigAl]

I think CWD will move across the state but when it hits the hills of East TN that have lower deer density's it will slow and have less of an impact. Those that say TWRA wants to "kill them all" probably never hunted in unit L where you could kill 3 does a day of you choose and the deer were in no way impacted to the severity that CWD has caused. Most of the CWD counties are in unit L and have seen drastic drops in kill numbers, even with the TWRA "kill em all" philosophy. I'm not too far from Ames, and our sightings (unit L) have decreased over the years and my club in no way practiced the doe killing that Ames or unit L put in place. CWD certainly has had an impact.

 

[Gphunter]

The problem is not so much the CWD as it is the regulatory changes that have been made in TN in the CWD counties.

Whether CWD is an issue or not, when the buck limit is dramatically increased, when centerfire rifles are suddenly allowed during what has long-term been an "archery" season segment, when a "trophy" velvet hunt (also with centerfire rifles, not archery) is added in August, when the season's end gets extended . . . . .
we suddenly see a huge increase in the buck harvest among the hunters?

For before mentioned reasons, the hunters are not going to kill many female deer (even although legal). But with the TWRA's CWD regs, war has been declared on bucks.

After a couple years, you're simply not going to see many bucks living to 3 1/2 or older with these kind of harvest regs in these TN counties. Again, this is due to regulations more than CWD.

The extreme regulatory reactions to CWD in TN seem remarkably similar to the federal government's extreme regulatory edicts with covid in 2020-2021?

I totally agree with you . I beleave not evevryone got covic some people were ammune to it and surely some deer may also .I don't think if it walks it drops . I hunted Ames Plantation for over 20yrs but after moving out of state i nolonger do . But i hear the deer population is nothing like it used to be due to cwd and management pratices .

 

[Gphunter]

I totally agree with you . I beleave not evevryone got covic some people were ammune to it and surely some deer may also .I don't think if it walks it drops . I hunted Ames Plantation for over 20yrs but after moving out of state i nolonger do . But i hear the deer population is nothing like it used to be due to cwd and management pratices .

 

[ROUGH COUNTRY HUNTER]

I don't know, I have seen many post that they will not eat venison they have not got a test result for, and many have just stopped hunting deer as much. With the dwindling numbers of hunters already, I see this having an impact in the number of new hunters if they keep up the doom and gloom reporting of CWD. I am more concerned with the lone star tick giving me Alpha-gal syndrome (AGS) than eating venison giving me Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.

I really wonder how many test are accurate, especially if a dollar is involved

 

[chris1976]

I know that's what we're being told....but southern Iowa and northern Missouri...in the counties identified in the article....I can promise you those counties produce bucks that meet most people's "trophy goals"....not to mention Kansas, Nebraska and a massive area in Canada....many of these areas have been producing trophy deer for decades....with CWD being detected....in reality...in TN...there are allot of bucks that will meet or satisfy most hunters goals at age 3½ and certainly at age 4½....so I'm not sure CWD is the end of hunting for mature deer with above average antlers.....at least it hasn't been the end in those areas which have had CWD for decade's....but don't get me wrong...I wish there was zero CWD...and obviously it's not a good thing for the herd....i just don't buy the theory that deer hunting or having an opportunity to hunt mature deer is over....and I certainly will not participate in the slaughter of every deer I see in an effort to prevent the spread when were being told there is nothing we can do to stop it.

This is what I am not understanding. They want a mass killing in affected areas to slow the spread. They also say that the "prions" can stay in the soil for many years or even decades. So the areas affected are screwed forever? If you totally eradicated the deer herd from these areas then they have to stay eradicated infinitely?? There are strong forces at play trying to stop our way of life as rural Americans. Something to definitely think about. I'm not buying into it.

 

[chris1976]

My question is, was it CWD that destroyed Ames or was it the biologists' response to the CWD that destroyed Ames? In my personal opinion, it was the Biologists' response.

I worked my ass off to help grow a small organization called the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA, now National Deer Association [NDA]) into the big organization it became. But after they got big, I began to disagree with many of their changing philosophies, practices, and recommendations. Now I have almost nothing to do with them for a reason.

This!!! AMES screwed up their deer population. Not CWD.

 

[chris1976]

You guys that have yet to experience it first hand are just Monday morning quarterbacks. When it hits your areas in earnest, you will see. Hopefully, the measures the state is taking will help reduce the impact…and no one is killing all the deer…. Just all the deer in some areas.

As seen on some of the comments in this thread already show how wrong some of y'all are. Do t matter to me, I've basically given up deer hunting anyway. Due to the impact of CWD.

Mission accomplished

 

[Gphunter]

^^^^ The positivity rates above debunk one theory that SO MANY average joe deer hunters claim. They will go on and on about how CWD only affects the older mature bucks, and that they are the only ones that spread it. I hear that story told far too often. When we started having positives in yearlings (1.5 y/o) and fawns (0.5 y/o), it was eye opening and another testament that CWD was "environmental" in our parts, just as Dr. Bronson Strickland had discussed with us and warned us about at our annual deer supper in September 2018 (just 3 months before our first positive).

Great info Andy . Until it hits in one's own yard people won't appreciate what used to be .