Land Management Skill vs Hunting Skill

[Bone Collector]

This is not aimed at anyone on here. This is more based off stuff I have seen on FB, and maybe a little bit here in the past.

I have had something on my mind for a while and I hadn't posted it here and I sure as heck won't post it on FB, because it will definitely hurt someone's feelings there and probably start a fight. May hurt some here too, but this group overall is a lot more level headed than some of the morons on FB (some folks are good over there too). I am just now starting to try to do some habitat management on my property. I know some of the folks here consult and I know some have just figured it out on their own. My issue is with people on FB (though I haven't been on too much and haven't seen it the few times I've been on), but I thought I bring up the topic here for discussion. My issue is I have seen people debate things about deer hunting and Hunter A makes a point and Hunter B who we know has a lot of properties to hunt and either through the grace of God, hard work and money, or both, has some really good places to hunt. If Hunter B disagrees with Hunter A's opinion, and Hunter A rebuts Hunter B's argument, then Hunter B says "Let's compare trophies" or "what's the biggest buck you killed". The point hunter B is trying to make is he (always been a guy) has killed bigger and more bigger bucks and therefore is more knowledgeable about hunting… Issue is are they really using hunting skills to kill those deer or are they using habitat management skills to kill most of those deer? I get that you would want to improve your hunting odds by doing habitat work and I aim to do so myself, but in doing so, am I know deer hunting or just managing habitat and shooting (hopefully) higher quality bucks?

I know if you are bow hunting there are circumstances where you may have to use some hunting skills due to the close proximity you have to be to a deer to shoot it, but rifles in shooting houses or what you see on hunting shows where a property is managed to funnel deer to a food plot where you sit in a redneck shooting house on that plot is not hunting skill in my opinion. It is marksmanship skills and the deer are there by design that was implemented through habitat management.

I guess my question is are we still good hunters or are we just becoming good land managers that shoot deer from time to time?

Again this isn't aimed at anyone on here. Just things I think about.

 

[rifle02]

The answer lies somewhere in the middle. One of the first rules of deer hunting is hunt where there are some deer! If you have your own property and want to hunt there then to be successful you must have some deer on your property. If your property sucks , from a deer's perspective , you're not likely to find many deer. The answer seems to be to improve the place. But how you hunt them whether or not from shooting houses Etc is another thing.

 

[Lost Lake]

I'd guess that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

I know this. If a guy is regularly killing older deer ( and usually it's the same few) I'd pay close attention to his methods, regardless of how and where he hunts, but especially if he kills them in a lot of different places.

 

[recurve60#]

Its a combo, but to your one sentence...I've learned that my best management tool was getting rid of my bushhog. I dont plant anymore and only bushhog every other year on a rotation. I have deer coming out my ears for the last ten years. Do less has made me a lot of deer and a better hunter as to your topic.

 

[Jcalder]

I'm in a similar situation. I have 20 acres I hunt. Pretty limited with the lay of the land. Neighbor has several hundred acres he can hunt. Guess who kills more of the better deer. It's simply because he can move around to where they may be. I'm stuck on my 20 acres. It usually sucks, but I also know I'm not second guessing myself on where I need to be. The one thing I can do and try to do is make my place more attractive. Sometimes it works, usually doesn't.

 

[Popcorn]

All of the above. Every question can be answered "yes".
I was as much an amateur hunter as anyone but have both knowledge gained from a farm life and a love of reading / absorbing information. I took my current job as a property manager (multiple properties including residential, agricultural and recreational 10 years ago. One of my coworkers a recent graduate of misu and a student of Dr. Woods and I had always given him his due. When he would not get his way he would throw out the "let's compare mounts" and in the end that's all he had till he grew up. Amateur hour. Today I manage property for a true environmentalist, a hunter and a businessman all of who are adamant about habitat, conservation, quality of experience and soil improvement. In them and their guests I see every one from legends to folks like myself, I see true hunters, set in on conversations with biologists and environmentalists, I work among row crop farmers, have lunch with everyday guys who can be poor as dirt or worth millions and you may not know which. Shooters, hunters, dirt people (me) or braggart, when the chips are down on opening morning they all wait for their stand or blind assignments from me. I don't need a big trophy room when I help fill theirs. It takes all types, it's a shame some are jerks, I always keep a stand and a blind just for the jerks down at what we call the gar hole! Lol
By the way
Facebook sucks mud move on…

For the record I am privately employed. Not a for hire consultant.

 

[backyardtndeer]

There really is no level playing field unless hunter a and hunter b hunt the exact same property.

 

[Boll Weevil]

One of the hardest parts about killing old/big bucks is having old/big bucks to kill. Management can certainly increase the odds and frequency, not to the point of making it "easy" but definitely more likely to close the deal on a good buck.

 

[Rem7600]

I am leaving more towards hunting/ marksman skills. I know a guy here in Tennessee he brought me to brimstone once and on the way in conversation he says I've never even seen less than an 8pt in here. He is the guy that has pure luck plus his skills are definitely off the charts when I seen his garage the first time it blew my mind how many big deer he has hanging. I AM NOT THAT GUY. Though i feel I possess some good all around skills.

I think for most land management has little to do with it.

1.Passing a buck when you should.
2.controlling yourself when waiting for the right shot or don't take one. (I can be a victim of this occasionally unfortunately)
2.Shooting
3.Scouting thoroughly
4.And then just pure luck right spot right time.

This guy I just talked about says Illinois you better watch your trails in and out, wind scent control everylittle thing. He says in tennesse public or private go hunt don't worry, and practice shooting.

I've not done scent control the past couple years, shot a nice one last year. Had a doe 10yds while on the ground no clue I was there she hung out for almost an hour in the wind. Probably some more I can't think of now.

Good thread im curious to watch the input

 

[Bone Collector]

I think my point was lost in all those words. What I am saying is there are deer on private land. Some more than others. There are also deer on Public land. On Private land we seemed more focused on habitat management where as on public land we cannot do that and everyone can hunt there, so it is more or less more hunting skill to get in there and kill a mature buck vs. maybe you set yourself up a honey hole that allows you to kill one or two yearly.

I was going to put this in the OP, but if someone kills a bunch of big deer on public land, I am probably going to listen to them if they are offering up info, but if a guy is offering up info and has these habitat managed lands, then they may have a lot of hunting knowledge, but they may just be shooting big bucks due to where they hunt. In other, words could they do it year in and year out on Public land? probably not. Then I hear those guys talking like they should be respected as a hunting guru, because they shot some big bucks. Not so sure that is the case.

 

[BSK]

There really is no level playing field unless hunter a and hunter b hunt the exact same property.

^^^^^
This.

 

[muddyboots]

The lane management just gets them there. You still got to kill them. A mature buck is a different animal wherever he lives.

 

[BSK]

One of the hardest parts about killing old/big bucks is having old/big bucks to kill. Management can certainly increase the odds and frequency, not to the point of making it "easy" but definitely more likely to close the deal on a good buck.

^^^^
Also this!

 

[BSK]

I'm an above-average habitat manager.
I'm a below-average hunter.

My habitat management skills have helped draw more high-end bucks to my personal property. Thankfully, I've killed a couple. But I've NOT killed more top end bucks I knew were using my property than I can count (several dozen, that's for sure).

Draw a lot of nice bucks to a given property and even a below-average hunter will kill one now and then.

 

[Dennis]

Rather than get into that kind of argument described in the original post, I find it quicker to just whip it out and directly compare size.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I think my point was lost in all those words. What I am saying is there are deer on private land. Some more than others. There are also deer on Public land. On Private land we seemed more focused on habitat management where as on public land we cannot do that and everyone can hunt there, so it is more or less more hunting skill to get in there and kill a mature buck vs. maybe you set yourself up a honey hole that allows you to kill one or two yearly.

I was going to put this in the OP, but if someone kills a bunch of big deer on public land, I am probably going to listen to them if they are offering up info, but if a guy is offering up info and has these habitat managed lands, then they may have a lot of hunting knowledge, but they may just be shooting big bucks due to where they hunt. In other, words could they do it year in and year out on Public land? probably not. Then I hear those guys talking like they should be respected as a hunting guru, because they shot some big bucks. Not so sure that is the case.

If the question is which is harder or takes more raw skill.... killing big mature bucks every year on public land....or killing big mature bucks every year on large pieces of well managed private.....I think everyone would agree that dealing with the challenges public land brings is more difficult.

But to me it doesn't take anything away from someone who is fortunate enough to have private land managed for quality habitat....in many cases land managers get more reward from being a steward of the land verses killing any deer.

And thankfully I don't have Facebook....but on TnDeer I don't see the "let's compare mounts or trophy walls" crowd?... thankful we don't have that attitude here...most folks who post deer pics here get many congratulations!

 

[megalomaniac]

I'd guess that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

I know this. If a guy is regularly killing older deer ( and usually it's the same few) I'd pay close attention to his methods, regardless of how and where he hunts, but especially if he kills them in a lot of different places.

Yup.

The guys who regularly kill old bucks are doing something different than 90% of the hunters. I always listen to them unless they are paying for them.

 

[squackattack]

The land also matters. Best land management in world is still going to do only so much. I automatically think of Iowa vs Florida for deer. I also find management has made me a worse hunter just because I would rather do management than sit in a tree.

 

[Laserman1]

The lane management just gets them there. You still got to kill them. A mature buck is a different animal wherever he lives.

I think land management does a lot to get them there. I know guys personally that drive up from Atlanta, or down from Nashville, climb into a blind with no prior scouting ( even using a borrowed rifle) and shoot 140+ deer. It's not their skill level it's the land management and food plots. I've even sat in the blind a day before and saw nothing and the next day a mature deer is killed from there.

 

[webfeet7]

I think the right land can definitely turn an average hunter into an above average hunter. I know a couple guys that hunt less than 10 times a year and kill a 140 every year…I don't believe the same people could do it on public or leased land near as easily. Becoming familiar with a property and the way deer move on it contributes a lot to success I believe.

 

[Gravey]

You're a freaking moron and a pathetic piece of crap. You can't manage your land or kill big trophy bucks so shut your pie hole and keep killing scrubs and does that anybody with a pulse can kill.









Ok was that a good Facebook response? you know I'm kidding. Every good buck I've killed has probably been based on luck and/or the buck being on a suicide mission.

 

[deerhunter10]

In the middle, for those that do it year after year. For me it's not the bone on top of the head it's how old is the deer. The people killing mature deer in tn year after year generally are doing both things. You can have all the food plots and cameras and shooting houses you want to if you aren't hunting them smart the majority of people aren't getting that lucky year after year. You have to have hunting skill to kill mature deer year after year. Habitat improvement don't kill them for you just can help you. If it were that easy everyone would be doing it. Social media and TV makes it seems like it is but in reality I know a lot of people that do not punch tags year after year that I consider very good hunters and also a lot good at Habitat. Habitat improvements have been going on for decades it seems to me honestly it's becoming a hot topic mainly because of the turkeys and some of the deer. I will also say this I know people that hunt private that would no doubt get it done on public as well. Just because someone kills big deer on private land doesn't make then any less of a hunter than those on public or vice versa. The private vs public land debate is always hot and heavy on YouTube with some of those channels on there.

 

[deerhunter10]

I think land management does a lot to get them there. I know guys personally that drive up from Atlanta, or down from Nashville, climb into a blind with no prior scouting ( even using a borrowed rifle) and shoot 140+ deer. It's not their skill level it's the land management and food plots. I've even sat in the blind a day before and saw nothing and the next day a mature deer is killed from there.

Maybe the land but that's called luck as well some days it's your day.

 

[Ski]

Issue is are they really using hunting skills to kill those deer or are they using habitat management skills to kill most of those deer? I get that you would want to improve your hunting odds by doing habitat work and I aim to do so myself, but in doing so, am I know deer hunting or just managing habitat and shooting (hopefully) higher quality bucks?



I guess my question is are we still good hunters or are we just becoming good land managers that shoot deer from time to time?

Habitat management is a work in progress, an education in peeling layers from an onion. The more I learn, the more I realize there's even more to learn. Every "enhancement" is accompanied by unforeseen pitfalls that present problems needing solved. I enjoy the challenge and the work, but it doesn't come without risk.

On public land if you spook a buck you can move and find another buck to hunt. It doesn't work that way on your own ground. If you spook him he's gone and all that effort, money, and time spent creating an environment for him is wasted. That in itself will force you to become a better, smarter, more calculating hunter because you're vested in that deer and habitat. And the sense of accomplishment you get when you tag him is unlike any deer you've ever killed on public. Simply indescribable, even if he's not your biggest.

I've hunted public my entire life and still do. It's tough in its own ways. I love it. But it's not tougher than managed private land. It's different with different challenges. I think you're really going to enjoy managing habitat on your own dirt. I'd be interested in revisting this topic from time to time to see how your perspective changes as you experience hunting on land you manage. Having done it myself it has for sure changed my perspective. I used to think it must be easy killing big bucks on well managed private land. Now I know from first hand experience that's not true.

 

[MUP]

I'm an above-average habitat manager.
I'm a below-average hunter.

My habitat management skills have helped draw more high-end bucks to my personal property. Thankfully, I've killed a couple. But I've NOT killed more top end bucks I knew were using my property than I can count (several dozen, that's for sure).

Draw a lot of nice bucks to a given property and even a below-average hunter will kill one now and then.

I'm a below avg hunter, with below average hunting time, with undeveloped woodland property to hunt, and I still fall into the "every now and then" category for a good buck!

 

[PickettSFHunter]

In areas like where I primarily hunt, it can actually be easier to get a nice buck on public land…if you know what you're doing. Low deer densities either way whether it's private or public. You have to use terrain to your advantage. If you have 100 or even 500 acres, you may not have the right terrain or there may just not be a nice buck in that area that year. With huge tracts of public land, you can find the right terrain to kill a good one.

 

[Swampster]

Hmmm. I never knew it was a competition. Guess I've been doing something wrong all these years.

 

[Talome13]

EDIT:
My first response was a little harsh. Personally, I don't think about hunting this much for these types of questions to come up. And I think for questions like these to arise, it speaks for what hunting has become to some people, it's a sad reality (I'm not speaking of the OP at all, just who he's had to deal with). I'm not going to single any one social media platform out, but they hold the evidence to what the minds of some hunters have become.

My advice: Hunt happy, hunt legal, forget everything else.

 

[Bone Collector]

I know this. If a guy is regularly killing older deer ( and usually it's the same few) I'd pay close attention to his methods, regardless of how and where he hunts, but especially if he kills them in a lot of different places.

The bold and red font is kind of my point. If a guy owns a piece of land and sure at some point he had to figure out an area the bucks were using, BUT... maybe with help or research he developed a place they use, and now he is sitting in the same area and shooting big bucks year in and year out, I don't think it matters what he tells me he is doing UNLESS he tells me how to develop an area like he has or if he lets me hunt his spot. If he doesn't do either then it is of no benefit to me.

Again, I am not doing this to bash anyone. These are feelings I have as I start to try to improve habitat. I start thinking, if this works how much will I be hunting and is the accomplishment the same as just hunting raw land or public land.

The red font is kinda what I was touching on with my public land remarks.

 

[TheLBLman]

I don't have much to add, but this:

Hunting & Shooting are two different things,
although shooting is a part of hunting, sometimes a small part,
sometimes a big part.

The best hunter may not be the best shooter;
the best shooter may not be much a hunter at all.

I would put land management in the same area as shooting.

In areas like where I primarily hunt, it can actually be easier to get a nice buck on public land…if you know what you're doing.

I have also found this to be the case.
But it also depends on which apple you're comparing to which orange.