Agree or Disagree?

[TheLBLman]

Although that may be true, it isn't necessarily so. There was a mountain lion killed in Connecticut that was from South Dakota back in 2011. They have DNA samples of it in states as it walked east. They will walk a long ways. Here's a story on it.

The Dakota wild-origin cat killed in Connecticut was a young MALE.
Young males often travel several hundred miles from their birth areas, in search of a new range containing a female, and no competing older male cats. Some of these young males travel over 1,000 miles.
Female cougars simply don't do this.
The one from Carroll County, TN was a female.
It did not walk from North Dakota to TN.

As to the others documented in TN, I suspect some did make that journey.
It's also becoming increasingly more likely we'll have more young males coming into TN via Arkansas. But regardless from the Dakotas are Arkansas (or Texas, Missouri, etc.), the Mississippi & Ohio Rivers remain a significant barrier to natural dispersal of these animals into TN.

. . . . . first pet killed/child attacked, they'd want them gone...again. the "wild" aint safe...

That does not seem to be happening in California, where pets are regularly eaten by cougars, and several people have been attacked and/or killed by cougars over the past few years.

 

[fairchaser]

Fairchaser I have to disagree with you on this. We're not far from Ames and even on small parcels we have mature deer. We don't shoot them until they get mature and we have chances at more than one on each property every year. We're not like Ames with all the hunters pressuring them. I have to think with Ames pressure in the past and now that's part of the problem. I feel like this because I was a member there before.

With 50 hunters and 200-300 cameras, we have a pretty good census of what bucks are out there. Yes, they're a number of shooter bucks. I have 3-4, 3 or 4 year olds, I'd shoot if given the chance. But not 5-6 year olds. They just don't exist anymore with CWD. I've gotten photos of one buck that was 6.5 in the last 13 years. If you're killing these bucks every year, I'd love to see their jawbones.

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

I can tell by this site and others that Tennessee needs a one buck limit. Not a single picture of a mature deer all fall.

Considering hunters kill less than one buck per hunter I can see where a one buck limit would help.

Even the poachers killing more than two now will change.

 

[mike243]

I can tell by this site and others that Tennessee needs a one buck limit. Not a single picture of a mature deer all fall.

Considering hunters kill less than one buck per hunter I can see where a one buck limit would help.

Even the poachers killing more than two now will change.

Changing the limit wont help the mature buck #s, make it a lottery, I'm sure that will help, cut 1/2 of us out of hunting per year should make 2 mature bucks behind every tree

 

[TheLBLman]

Changing the limit wont help the mature buck #s . . . . .

Incorrect.
Changing the buck limit absolutely has an effect on whether there will be more or fewer bucks killed, and whether there will be more or fewer mature bucks in the subsequent years following the change.

This is a basic math equation.
Hunters statewide kill fewer bucks, more live to an older age in TN.
Hunters statewide kill more bucks, fewer live to an older age in TN.

The real question is whether making a change in buck limits is actually worth the pros & cons of that change.

Going to a 1-buck limit will in fact slightly increase the number of bucks reaching maturity.
Going to a 3-buck limit will in fact slightly decrease the number of bucks reaching maturity.

That said, buck limits are just one of many factors effecting how many bucks live to maturity.

Other factors include:

1) Number of days of gun seasons (this includes muzzleloader).
2) The timing of those gun-hunting days (within or outside peak rut)
3) Number of days of archery season
4) Collective Hunter Mindsets
---- This varies greatly, and is much different today than it was in the early 1990's.
---- This also effects the amount of antler-high grading among harvested bucks.
5) Antler restrictions that define which bucks are legal or not.
6) The number of deer hunters who actually hunt annually
7) How intensely those deer hunters hunt, i.e. how hard and how many days.
8) Whether are not venison is consider highly desirable to eat or not.
9) The availability of deer processors
10) Antlerless deer limits and availability to kill female deer instead of bucks for table fare.

More factors could be added to the above, and all factors have an effect on other factors.

Buck limits do matter, but they are just one piece, albeit a big piece, of the deer management puzzle.

 

[TheLBLman]

Just my opinion, but the 2-buck limit seems to be the best number when considering all the other factors, at least right now in Tennessee.

One factor not listed in the above list is hunters' personal limits on "practical" harvests, i.e. just how many deer are "practical" annually for a particular hunter to be willing to harvest (or process, or drag, or deal with in any way).

For a majority of TN deer hunters currently, this appears to be no more than two (2), never mind for many it is one, and for a few it is without limit.

When the "practical" hunter harvest limit is considered, some deer managers may lean towards a 1-buck limit for the primary purpose of increasing the doe harvest. The reality is that if a hunter wants 2 deer annually, most hunters still prefer 2 bucks over 1 buck & 1 doe. So a 1-buck limit does in fact help increase the doe harvest, and can be used for that purpose if needed.

 

[7mmWSM]

With 50 hunters and 200-300 cameras, we have a pretty good census of what bucks are out there. Yes, they're a number of shooter bucks. I have 3-4, 3 or 4 year olds, I'd shoot if given the chance. But not 5-6 year olds. They just don't exist anymore with CWD. I've gotten photos of one buck that was 6.5 in the last 13 years. If you're killing these bucks every year, I'd love to see their jawbones.

CWD isn't killing the deer. How many bucks have died from CWD? Hunters are killing the deer not CWD. Doesn't Ames allow any legal buck to be taken on the 18,000 acres?
We don't have to save the jaw bones to age most of our deer from year to year with the history we have of them. Besides I don't know of many deer from 140-159" that isn't mature. But I guess without jawbones you doubt our success on mature bucks.

 

[1jamey]

I didn't read all the comments but has anyone mentioned or thought about earn a buck? With a 1 or 2 buck limit. Maybe 1 buck given and have to earn the 2nd, I don't know just an idea.

 

[TheLBLman]

I didn't read all the comments but has anyone mentioned or thought about earn a buck?

"Earn-a-buck" has generally proven to be a bad idea,
not working in reality like it does in theory.

It has mainly rewarded dishonest hunters while punishing the honest ones.
Just another "complication" in our regs that we don't need.

I've also seen "earn-a-buck" contribute greatly to some dangerous hunting situations.

Also keep in mind that many areas where a 1-buck limit might be considered to protect more bucks, absolutely don't need to be killing more female deer.

The best prescription for an increased doe harvest (when needed) is simply allowing more hunting, with firearms, coupled with a higher bag limit on antlerless deer. This might sometimes mean a 1-buck limit, as we currently see on many quota hunts, where the limit is "3 deer, no more than 1 antlered".

 

[Ski]

Incorrect.
Changing the buck limit absolutely has an effect on whether there will be more or fewer bucks killed, and whether there will be more or fewer mature bucks in the subsequent years following the change.

This is a basic math equation.
Hunters statewide kill fewer bucks, more live to an older age in TN.
Hunters statewide kill more bucks, fewer live to an older age in TN.

The real question is whether making a change in buck limits is actually worth the pros & cons of that change.

Going to a 1-buck limit will in fact slightly increase the number of bucks reaching maturity.
Going to a 3-buck limit will in fact slightly decrease the number of bucks reaching maturity.

That said, buck limits are just one of many factors effecting how many bucks live to maturity.

Other factors include:

1) Number of days of gun seasons (this includes muzzleloader).
2) The timing of those gun-hunting days (within or outside peak rut)
3) Number of days of archery season
4) Collective Hunter Mindsets
---- This varies greatly, and is much different today than it was in the early 1990's.
---- This also effects the amount of antler-high grading among harvested bucks.
5) Antler restrictions that define which bucks are legal or not.
6) The number of deer hunters who actually hunt annually
7) How intensely those deer hunters hunt, i.e. how hard and how many days.
8) Whether are not venison is consider highly desirable to eat or not.
9) The availability of deer processors
10) Antlerless deer limits and availability to kill female deer instead of bucks for table fare.

More factors could be added to the above, and all factors have an effect on other factors.

Buck limits do matter, but they are just one piece, albeit a big piece, of the deer management puzzle.

Agree 100%. Regardless of personal opinion about where the limit should be or why, there's no arguing that lower buck limits don't equal more older bucks in the herd.

"IF" there's ever to be another change in the buck limit then every perspective and opinion should be heard and weighed because it's apparent that not only is there a sharp contrast between hunters on what they want out of their hunt, the opportunity also varies pretty drastically from one end of the state to the other. IMO every hunter who buys a license should have equal say in how the herd is managed, additional to recommendations from the departments biologists who keep track of herd health and statistics. None of us are ever going to get it exactly the way we want it and that's fine with me.

 

[102]

It never ceases to amaze me how when a buck increases in age, he becomes infinitely more difficult to kill. On pressured land, deer mature and learn to avoid hunters in direct proportion to the number of NEGATIVE encounters they have with humans. And the more these negative encounters are are also associate with human smell, the more thorough and complete the eduction becomes.

So...let a buck get some age...and he learns how to disappear.

Older age buck structured population may often result in fewer sightings.

And only the more skilled hunters CONSISTENTLY kill these bucks.

 

[MUP]

I know I don't for sure! I know they're there tho.

 

[HoytDawg]

It never ceases to amaze me how when a buck increases in age, he becomes infinitely more difficult to kill. On pressured land, deer mature and learn to avoid hunters in direct proportion to the number of NEGATIVE encounters they have with humans. And the more these negative encounters are are also associate with human smell, the more thorough and complete the eduction becomes.

So...let a buck get some age...and he learns how to disappear.

Older age buck structured population may often result in fewer sightings.

And only the more skilled hunters CONSISTENTLY kill these bucks.

It really is amazing how in a span of 1-2 years a buck can go from one of the dumbest creatures in the woods to an absolute ghost

 

[Jcalder]

I didn't read all the comments but has anyone mentioned or thought about earn a buck? With a 1 or 2 buck limit. Maybe 1 buck given and have to earn the 2nd, I don't know just an idea.

You wanting a record number of does checked in, regardless of what was truly killed lol

 

[fairchaser]

CWD isn't killing the deer. How many bucks have died from CWD? Hunters are killing the deer not CWD. Doesn't Ames allow any legal buck to be taken on the 18,000 acres?
We don't have to save the jaw bones to age most of our deer from year to year with the history we have of them. Besides I don't know of many deer from 140-159" that isn't mature. But I guess without jawbones you doubt our success on mature bucks.

I apologize for doubting your success. For sure Ames doesn't experience success at those levels. We did have that success prior to the discovery of CWD. Maybe it's incorrect to assume CWD is the primary cause. But, it's at least a contributing factor. Yes, CWD kills bucks directly or indirectly and impacts older bucks more so. Anecdotally, you can ask any hunter that's hunted Ames for many years and they are universal in their opinions as to the impact of CWD on older bucks.

 

[CrossVolle]

Managing a state like Tennessee with such a wide range of habitats and herds with a blanket anything seems irresponsible.

Unit regs to their prescription but 2 bucks in all of them?

 

[7mmWSM]

I apologize for doubting your success. For sure Ames doesn't experience success at those levels. We did have that success prior to the discovery of CWD. Maybe it's incorrect to assume CWD is the primary cause. But, it's at least a contributing factor. Yes, CWD kills bucks directly or indirectly and impacts older bucks more so. Anecdotally, you can ask any hunter that's hunted Ames for many years and they are universal in their opinions as to the impact of CWD on older bucks.

No problem Fairchaser. I've always liked your post. With nobody knowing for sure we all have our opinions and speculations. CWD has ruined a lot for all of us in this area one way or another.

 

[mike243]

They dropped it to 2 so I haven't seen the increase in mature bucks yet and it's been how long now? how long would it take to see a increase if dropped to 1 ? it must be simple to explain?

 

[mike243]

I posted how to get older deer but nobody wants to step up and try it, why? we would be lucky to raise the average age even at that, I would hazard that more licenses would be sold, according to some $$ is all twra cares about.

 

[Wooden Arrow]

the Mississippi & Ohio Rivers remain a significant barrier to natural dispersal of these animals into TN.

it took coyotes about 50 years, but now the dang things are everywhere. too many bridges, lol!