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Devil's advocate here... What if that hunter only killed one last year...then two this year?
Would it reset to two for next year? Or just can't take two two years in a row?
Agree or Disagree?
- Thread starter HoytDawg
- Start date
Would it reset to two for next year? Or just can't take two two years in a row?
Personally I think the "older age bucks help herd health" is a lie. How does it help herd HEALTH?
Yes a more balanced age curve is more "natural" and I am sure there is Some benefit. (likely small)
But, during a restoration management plan, does are protected while bucks are liberally hunted. On Purpose.
So is a restoration management plan destroying the herd health? No Its for building the herd. How do you build a herd while destroying herd health??
What I think is true is "older age bucks with big horns are marketable" Be it the TWRA, hunting shows, hunting products, QDMA, Leases, guns, outfitters, ATVs, youtubers, shirt salesmen, etc..... Everybody is using big horns to sell their stuff. Nobody is using a photo of a 4.5yr old 3 point to sell their stuff.
SO lets just be honest and drop the "its for the childrenses" BS and call it what it is. A hybrid trophy management plan where the goal is to manage for old big horned bucks, but leave enough slack in the regs to not alienate the other 90% of hunters who want increased hunting opportunities.
I think a bit more honesty and transparency would do ALL the F&G agencies a lot of good. Yes it would be harder to SELL the hybrid trophy management regulations, but the agencies would retain more integrity and support.
Yes a more balanced age curve is more "natural" and I am sure there is Some benefit. (likely small)
But, during a restoration management plan, does are protected while bucks are liberally hunted. On Purpose.
So is a restoration management plan destroying the herd health? No Its for building the herd. How do you build a herd while destroying herd health??
What I think is true is "older age bucks with big horns are marketable" Be it the TWRA, hunting shows, hunting products, QDMA, Leases, guns, outfitters, ATVs, youtubers, shirt salesmen, etc..... Everybody is using big horns to sell their stuff. Nobody is using a photo of a 4.5yr old 3 point to sell their stuff.
SO lets just be honest and drop the "its for the childrenses" BS and call it what it is. A hybrid trophy management plan where the goal is to manage for old big horned bucks, but leave enough slack in the regs to not alienate the other 90% of hunters who want increased hunting opportunities.
I think a bit more honesty and transparency would do ALL the F&G agencies a lot of good. Yes it would be harder to SELL the hybrid trophy management regulations, but the agencies would retain more integrity and support.
BSK, could you educate me on how going to a lower buck limit wouldn't increase the age structure of bucks in our herd? I am NOT asking that in a smart alec way- it's the argument i hear used most by buddies that are proponents of a 1 buck limit. I just took it as fact, assuming more bucks that live = more older bucks. But I know things don't always work that simply.
We have been managing our buck kills since the mid nineties. Just because you carry over twenty 2 1/2 year olds at the end of season doesn't mean you will have twenty 3 1/2 year olds the following season. It doesn't work out the way the 1 buck crowd thinks it will.
2 is perfect. i cant imagine many hunters not finding 2 acceptable. i know first hand, even in pristine private land, how hard it is to seal the deal on 2 fully mature bucks in the same season.
Theres no doubt about that. i have a ton of 2.5 and 3.5s survive the season (got 4 on cam this morn) that survive each yr and many never show up at a yr older. But i would wager that killing more of those deer wouldnt help either. And while a 1 buck limit would suit my needs best, i still think 2 is pretty good for everybody and do not want to see it reduced.
Madbowh
Well-Known Member
What advantages does a man have by shooting any doe over taking smaller bucks. I would rather shoot a spike than a doe. Is there something I'm missing by not shooting the does.
If you want freezer meat wouldn't a small buck be best compared to taking does?
What if it went to 1 buck per weapon and 1 doe for the entire season? Wouldn't this help population better? Not counting cwd.
If you want freezer meat wouldn't a small buck be best compared to taking does?
What if it went to 1 buck per weapon and 1 doe for the entire season? Wouldn't this help population better? Not counting cwd.
why would you rather kill a spike over a doe. Is there a special value associated with those 2 little pieces of solidified calcium. I assume you are hunting for the meat anyway so harvesting a doe allows you to help with population control, while allowing that buck to reach the older age class that may appeal to other hunters in your area. you still get meat, and they may eventually get a good set of antlers- win , win
i could see them moving to a 2 buck limit, but only one with a rifle. might help twra sell a few more archery and ml tags
Not everyone needs population control….
In my low density area I would rather shoot a small buck as well, especially with the neighbors shooting does in the name of herd management. We don't have the numbers here to support that type management, and that's why I see single digit numbers of does most years during a season.
Madbowh
Well-Known Member
I would rather kill a spike than a doe to keep population up, in unit L I'm sure it doesn't matter but everywhere else it does. You can't eat antlers. I love my mounts but if I never killed one that went on the wall it wouldn't bother me because I'm filling the freezer.
Not counting the rack I'm interested if there is a legitimate reason to shoot does over any buck. I also think if times didn't put us where we are and having lots of antler chasers we wouldn't have half the regs we do. It's almost supply and demand, and the demand for big bucks is outrageous so Gw's and law makers keep changing it, imo. Passionate I don't care what someone does to each their own.... trying to learn from others perspectives(not just big antler perspective)
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Just can't take two bucks two years in a row.
Our buck limit is 3 bucks over any rolling 2-yr period.
This wouldn't be as practical on a statewide basis as in a private hunting club.
When our limit was 2 bucks annually, we had some accomplished hunters trying to "limit out" annually, with little trigger restraint on their 1st buck. Our current system puts a lot more restraint on that very 1st buck because none of the hunters want to be limited by a 1-buck limit the next year following any year they kill 2 bucks.
The biggest complaint many have with a typical 1-buck annual limit (such as statewide in KY) is that if you get lucky with a really good buck in early archery season, you then cannot enjoy any more buck hunting for nearly an entire deer season. Our 3 buck limit over 2 years largely solves that issue.
One thing over the years that has surprised me a bit, with both deer & turkey:
No matter the buck or turkey limits, there seems to be a "harvestable" availability of bucks & turkeys each year. Our collective buck or turkey harvests seem to little change whether the limits are higher or lower. But lower limits tend to increase the average hunter's opportunities to take "a" buck or "a" turkey.
I know this thread is mostly about the pros & cons of a 1-buck limit, but can illustrate a point better with turkeys. For years, our acreage seemed to support an annual turkey harvest of about 12 longbeards. But for many those years, we had a 4-bird limit, and we had 2 accomplished turkey hunters that killed 8 of those 12 birds annually in the 1st 10 days of our spring turkey season.
In other words, 2/3 of the "harvestable" turkeys were dead by the 2nd weekend of the season, which also seemed to be when a majority wanted to start turkey hunting (typically @ April 7). Many these hunters just seemed to think the turkey hunting "should" be better closer to April 7 - April 15 than April 1st. And it "would" have been, if most of the harvestable Toms weren't already dead.
Going to a 2-bird limit has unquestionably increased the opportunity to kill "a" turkey for our average turkey hunter. Ditto for our changing our 2-buck annual limit to what equates to a 1.5-buck annual limit. The main thing I see lower limits doing is spreading the harvest over a larger number of hunters, i.e. increasing hunter success, when that success is defined as taking at least one buck or one turkey.
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I agree and disagree. You may not have 20 2.5yr olds return but they live somewhere. If they survive the season they'll likely become 3.5yr olds somewhere. If they don't come back to your place it's because your habitat can't support them. Any given property has a carry capacity and that's your cap regardless of how many deer you let pass.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
One thing you may not be fully factoring is is natural (and un-natural) mortality of those say 20 2 1/2's that were living at the end of deer season.
Even in the best of habitat, all 20 that survive this deer season will typically not be living by the time the next deer season opens.
One or more will likely have or die of disease or injury, either of which may make him more susceptible to being caught & killed by coyotes or dogs. One or more will likely be poached post-season, or pre-season come fall. One or more may get run over by a truck.
Just saying, if 20 2 1/2's survive this season, should expect 2 to 5 of them to die before the upcoming deer season begins. This mortality seems to be pretty comparable for both the 2 1/2 & 3 1/2 cohorts, so even without any legal hunting, I would expect 4 to 10 of those 20 2 1/2's to die before the fall of their becoming 4 1/2.
For those that survive to 4 1/2, natural mortality increases, perhaps 20 to 40% of those will simply die of some cause before they reach 5 1/2. Almost none, at least in TN, can survive to 7 1/2, even in areas where deer are not legally or illegally hunted.
That said, I'm personally all in favor of giving all 2 1/2's a pass.
They more you pass, the more 3 1/2 and older you have the next year.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
More my theory than proven law, but I believe 3 1/2 & older bucks are particular vulnerable to predation by dogs & coyotes in the 48-hr period immediately after they shed their 1st antler, and until 48 hrs after they've shed the 2nd.
The reason I believe they are more vulnerable is because antler shedding happens at a time when these bucks may already be weak & malnourished, then the smell of blood on their heads can attract dogs & coyotes from amazingly great distances. Same thing happens when a poor shot superficially wounds any deer, i.e. the deer survives the wound, but does not survive a pack of dogs or coyotes, brought to the deer by the smell of blood.
I think an alarming percentage of fully mature bucks die within a week of antler shedding. This is why some have noted many season-surviving 5 1/2's are never again seen as 6 1/2's.
They're dead.
The reason I believe they are more vulnerable is because antler shedding happens at a time when these bucks may already be weak & malnourished, then the smell of blood on their heads can attract dogs & coyotes from amazingly great distances. Same thing happens when a poor shot superficially wounds any deer, i.e. the deer survives the wound, but does not survive a pack of dogs or coyotes, brought to the deer by the smell of blood.
I think an alarming percentage of fully mature bucks die within a week of antler shedding. This is why some have noted many season-surviving 5 1/2's are never again seen as 6 1/2's.
They're dead.
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Bell3wv
Well-Known Member
I would like to see antler restrictions on adult hunters, still allowing the taking of does. This would help the quality of bucks and still allow youts to shoot any buck they want.
MidTennFisher
Well-Known Member
Tennessee went from 3 to 2, now some trophy chasers are advocating for 1. Before we know it, that'll happen and then they'll want you to be able to kill 1 buck every other season and only if it has at least 8 points with a minimum 14" spread. When does it stop with the worship of antler mass?
Right now yall should be way more concerned with the reckless slaughter of West TN's deer, how quickly that might spread to other parts of TN if a CWD test turns out positive (whether it's a lie or not) elsewhere, than whether or not TN has a 1 or 2 buck limit.
Right now yall should be way more concerned with the reckless slaughter of West TN's deer, how quickly that might spread to other parts of TN if a CWD test turns out positive (whether it's a lie or not) elsewhere, than whether or not TN has a 1 or 2 buck limit.
Antler restrictions are a must! 7 points on each side, 22" inside spread, and/or 200". Must have 2 of 3. Or gotta have no more than 3 on one side, under 10" spread, or total gross less than 50". No deer from 2.5 to 8.5 in age. What we need are just more restrictions.
