Rut question

[Bone Collector]

First off I hunted about the same as usual this year which is quite a bit after ML kicks off. I didn't get on as much in the last few days as I have been hunting almost all day long most days. I get back on and had 7 pages of kill threads to go through, so congrats to those that got it done.

I didn't see anything I wanted to shoot. This year has been weird to say the least and my little 32 acres just isn't producing bigger bucks like it used to. This is due to "progress" and things building up around me changing the deers patterns, but enough about that, on to the purpose of this thread.

While I was hunting I see a lot of things going on with my own two eyes, as well as pictures from multiple cell cams. When I first bought the place I had 1-2 3.5+ yr old bucks per year running around and maybe a 2.5 yr old or two. They would shift and I would get 1-2 more coming in. As things have grown up around me, no more bucks older than 1.5yr old in the summer. Then come Nov. I get one or two good ones that show up to chase. That didn't really happen this year. I did get 2-3 2.5 yr. old bucks to show up, but that was it. However, I did start seeing bucks chasing does as early as Nov. 6th and did start getting daylight pics of those 2.5 yr old bucks around the 12th-16th. Then everything shut down. Then around the week of Thanksgiving I saw a wide open chase, saw another buck chasing a doe on another property, but at the same time saw does that had abandoned fawns back around the 16th, back with the fawns.... some bucks were back together. Saw a 2.5 yr old buck thanksgiving morning and passed, but he was just walking through.

This got me to thinking. I have read on the deer restocking efforts of the TWRA and it appears that the main 3 states they used deer from were Michigan, Wisconsin, and Virginia. I have heard they got some from NC, and TX too though. It seems yearly I have does that go into estrous in early November. This usually brings in the bigger deer starting anywhere from Nov.10-16th. When that happens I will see lonely fawns about. When mom returns I see them together and small bucks may pester them, but that is it. Then without fail I will see full on chases the week of thanksgiving. Had a 2.5 yr old 8 chasing last year. This year it was a small buck but he was grunting and at a full sprint.

Sorry for the long post, but wanted to give the background info for my logic. My question of course is do you guys think we have a weird rut in TN due to deer being from other regions of the country?

I feel like it is always a trickle and starts early and goes through Thanksgiving. This can be good and bad, depending on how the deer use your land. My land is just a pass through property that deer pass through to feed, etc. If they are there you have a chance, but if you are working or something you may miss your only chance of the year.

 

[philsanchez76]

Good questions. im interested to see what others say. Im based in Davidson/Rutheford so looks like we hunt in similar areas. I concur with your observations though. I almost always witness my first chase on the day right before muzzleloader opens (nov. 4th or so) and im always frustrated cuz im sitting there with a bow and have no shots. Then I think it must be on! And then the subsequent week is pretty slow. Then by nov 11 or so its picking up again and then quickly slows down. Then thanksgiving weekend there's always a flurry of activity again. It makes it very hard to plan days off to hunt, cuz when the heck is the peak time?!

 

[backyardtndeer]

I do believe we have a trickle rut, but not due to where the deer came from in the restocking process..

 

[BSK]

Sorry for the long post, but wanted to give the background info for my logic. My question of course is do you guys think we have a weird rut in TN due to deer being from other regions of the country?

No. The unique genetics of restocked deer have long ago washed out of the population. What we have left in TN is Virginia (southern) Whitetails. Regional peak breeding times have developed that produce the highest fawn survival birth times for that location (and those may be different across very short geographic differences).

As for this year, I would not put too much emphasis on a single year's observations and timing. Local conditions can sway breeding dates a little bit. Severe conditional changes can sway breeding dates quite a bit. But this doesn't mean the genetics of the deer are different, just that environmental differences that cause body condition differences which alter the onset of estrus. Healthy does can enter estrus earlier than less healthy does.

Also don't put too much stock in a single year's observations while hunting. Time and again I've seen vast differences in what is really going on and what hunters see while hunting. I'm not downplaying the important role hunter observations have in assessing the local deer population, but that data is only useful over the long term and as a statistical trend (not a year-to-year correlation). Now trail-cameras are a different story. Having a lot of trail-cameras out over a wide variety of locations can give a pretty good picture of peak chasing/breeding dates, but I find it interesting how often this does NOT correspond with what hunters are seeing.

 

[BSK]

But as for the idea that this year is a very different rut, for western Middle TN, absolutely. The drought has had a major impact on the timing of the rut.

 

[Shooter77]

No. The unique genetics of restocked deer have long ago washed out of the population. What we have left in TN is Virginia (southern) Whitetails. Regional peak breeding times have developed that produce the highest fawn survival birth times for that location (and those may be different across very short geographic differences).

If this is so, then why is there so many peak ruts in states like AL that deer 20 miles from each other are a 1-2 months apart? I can see some based on region/environment, like deer in east TN mountains, the need to be born more consistent to survive compared to a deer in middle/west TN that have less snow and cold and more food sources.

 

[BSK]

If this is so, then why is there so many peak ruts in states like AL that deer 20 miles from each other are a 1-2 months apart? I can see some based on region/environment, like deer in east TN mountains, the need to be born more consistent to survive compared to a deer in middle/west TN that have less snow and cold and more food sources.

And that is one of the great unanswered questions. In the Deep South, I've seen deer 20 miles apart have peak breeding dates almost 3 months apart. What it is that makes breeding at one time better than another for fawn survival in a given location is probably something we haven't even thought of. But there are a few locations where "weird" peak breeding times produce fawn birthing times that are highly beneficial in obvious ways. But not everywhere. In fact, not in most regions of the south. But these very different localized breeding dates are not linked to past genetic lineage, only naturally Selected current genetics. This is just like humans. Ancestry DNA can tell you where your ancestors are from, but that doesn't mean any of those regional genetics are still active in your body. You may display no traits of the region your ancestors were from. I have a lot of Irish genetics in my system, yet I display zero Irish traits.

 

[Dennis]

And that is one of the great unanswered questions. In the Deep South, I've seen deer 20 miles apart have peak breeding dates almost 3 months apart. What it is that makes breeding at one time better than another for fawn survival in a given location is probably something we haven't even thought of. But there are a few locations where "weird" peak breeding times produce fawn birthing times that are highly beneficial in obvious ways. But not everywhere. In fact, not in most regions of the south. But these very different localized breeding dates are not linked to past genetic lineage, only naturally Selected current genetics. This is just like humans. Ancestry DNA can tell you where your ancestors are from, but that doesn't mean any of those regional genetics are still active in your body. You may display no traits of the region your ancestors were from. I have a lot of Irish genetics in my system, yet I display zero Irish traits.

Can't hold your whiskey eh?

 

[DMD]

I haven't seen much rutting deer activity in person in years. I don't know why, i just figure it is coincidence. I see lots of deer just no rut activity. Been probably 5 years since I've seen a buck chasing a doe. Weird.

 

[BSK]

Can't hold your whiskey eh?

Ha! By expressed traits, I'm pure Anglo-Saxon (as is most of my genetic code). But like many Europeans, I've also got that Irish and pesky Viking DNA as well.

 

[slabhead]

I've only seen 2 chasing this year on different tracks of land, and that's it. Really strange in Hickman County...had 4 bucks come by Saturday...had a 2 1/2 yr old 8pt and a 3 1/2 7pt come by together. They stopped and feed around for 10-15 minutes. The 7pts hocks were a little stained, the 8pt were clean. about an hour later had a 6pt and spike come by together. My son saw 10 does and no bucks he was about 1/2mile from me. Still getting a few pictures, got a really nice 10pt that disappeared right before muzzleloader and finally showed up last Tuesday and that's it. Had numerous 9s and 8s, plus a lot of smaller bucks. they've about disappeared.

 

[Headhunter]

I can tell you in Middle Tennessee that it has always been messed up. One group of friends hunted a farm about 2 miles from us as the crow flies.

For about 15 years, the first week of muzzleloader, he would be calling, texting etc. stories and pics, etc. of all the rut activity they were seeing and the nice bucks killed when they killed one. Of course I was hunting, our farm would be dead as far as rut activity. We were 2 miles apart. Actually one buck I have mounted, I killed out of a bachelor group of 7 on opening morning of muzzleloader. I saw that bachelor group together 2 more times that week.

Either the first or second week of gun season, I would be calling, texting, etc. him about how the rut had kicked in on the farm we hunt and the bucks we killed when we saw one we wanted to kill. His place would be post rut, not only seeing very little, if any rut activity, but they would seeing almost no deer at all.

Never could understand how 2 farms so close together could be so different, this happened every single year for about 15 years. On both farms, most all momma does were killed when seen, we both basically killed every single momma doe we could for all those years, we tried to never kill a young antlerless deer. They were the glory days of our hunting for us in middle Tennessee. Best day I had for total bucks seen in one day was 15. One of my favorite buck kills, I shot 2 momma does at daylight, opening day of gun season. They had 4 yearlings with them, I watched 6 or 7 different bucks chase one of those yearlings all around the cow pasture and the cows. A couple hours later a small doe came out and a great buck was after her, he didn't make it far. I still to this day only shoot momma does and they need to be with other deer so I make sure I don't kill young deer. We used to have a lot of "orphans" on the farm we hunted. It for sure made the hunting much better.

 

[Bone Collector]

As for this year, I would not put too much emphasis on a single year's observations and timing. Local conditions can sway breeding dates a little bit. Severe conditional changes can sway breeding dates quite a bit. But this doesn't mean the genetics of the deer are different, just that environmental differences that cause body condition differences which alter the onset of estrus. Healthy does can enter estrus earlier than less healthy does.

Also don't put too much stock in a single year's observations while hunting. Time and again I've seen vast differences in what is really going on and what hunters see while hunting. I'm not downplaying the important role hunter observations have in assessing the local deer population, but that data is only useful over the long term and as a statistical trend (not a year-to-year correlation). Now trail-cameras are a different story. Having a lot of trail-cameras out over a wide variety of locations can give a pretty good picture of peak chasing/breeding dates, but I find it interesting how often this does NOT correspond with what hunters are seeing.

That is the issue. This isn't a single year, seems to be every year for the last 10 years. Rut seems to start in Early November. Big bucks show up starting between Nov. 5th and 10th. Does start disappearing and abandoning fawns around the 12th-14th. "Lockdown" seems to occur at the end of ML or right around gun opener, depending on the year (this year ~Nov.17th). A lot of times gun opener is dead. This year saw 0, which is abnormal, but does happen. Saw one fawn on Sunday. Then started seeing fawns and young bucks. Then the Tuesday before TG I see a buck chasing a doe on a different property. Wednesday Afternoon, I see a 4 pt full on chasing a doe on my place grunting and everything, then a random 2.5 yr old on TG morning. Then it dies again.

Seems like every year does go in to estrous around Nov. 10th-12th. Big buck daytime pics occur from around Nov. 5th through the 17th, but usually from the 12th-16th, but they are passing through. I try to take these days off, but work doesn't always allow for it.. However I have seen bucks (mostly young, but some big) and had pics of daytime chasing as late as Nov. 29th. It seems most of my does come in to estrous early and then I have does going in to estrous around Thanksgiving, which is why this thought crossed my mind. Later I have fawns go in in December, and have had instances of a fawn going in in January and that is when I get pics of bucks that I've never seen before and they are usually pretty big.

 

[Bone Collector]

Good questions. im interested to see what others say. Im based in Davidson/Rutheford so looks like we hunt in similar areas. I concur with your observations though. I almost always witness my first chase on the day right before muzzleloader opens (nov. 4th or so) and im always frustrated cuz im sitting there with a bow and have no shots. Then I think it must be on! And then the subsequent week is pretty slow. Then by nov 11 or so its picking up again and then quickly slows down. Then thanksgiving weekend there's always a flurry of activity again. It makes it very hard to plan days off to hunt, cuz when the heck is the peak time?!

Exactly!

 

[DeerCamp]

No. The unique genetics of restocked deer have long ago washed out of the population. What we have left in TN is Virginia (southern) Whitetails. Regional peak breeding times have developed that produce the highest fawn survival birth times for that location (and those may be different across very short geographic differences).

As for this year, I would not put too much emphasis on a single year's observations and timing. Local conditions can sway breeding dates a little bit. Severe conditional changes can sway breeding dates quite a bit. But this doesn't mean the genetics of the deer are different, just that environmental differences that cause body condition differences which alter the onset of estrus. Healthy does can enter estrus earlier than less healthy does.

Also don't put too much stock in a single year's observations while hunting. Time and again I've seen vast differences in what is really going on and what hunters see while hunting. I'm not downplaying the important role hunter observations have in assessing the local deer population, but that data is only useful over the long term and as a statistical trend (not a year-to-year correlation). Now trail-cameras are a different story. Having a lot of trail-cameras out over a wide variety of locations can give a pretty good picture of peak chasing/breeding dates, but I find it interesting how often this does NOT correspond with what hunters are seeing.

Exactly this.

I was hunting about a mile from my buddy last week. Saw 5 bucks chasing. He didn't see a single deer.
He texted me " I guess the rut is over".

Nope - deer are just weird.

 

[killingtime 41]

the building up of houses all around you where farms use to be if to close to you or built right in the way of where they would come from or go to might affect some. Other than that. In my observation in n east Tn. It'll bust open week before thanksgiving. Then trickle out the rest of season. I've got a spotted fawn on camera still. Mama Had to be bred in December or January

 

[RockMcL]

I really enjoy following this subject line and pick up a lot of info.

I am seeing rut activity now but numbers of deer in chase/competition just seems down. I am finally seeing scrapes and rubs but it's like the deer are low on vitamins. Hate to say it but so far the bucks remind me of going to Walmart, just how lazy do you have to be to shop in pajamas and your fuzzy slippers...

Maybe there is hope though, (not for the lazy humans) one of my sons shot a buck a few days ago that was defending "his doe" so aggressively that the competitors couldn't get even to the edge of the draw she was in. He could only see flashes of the buck and it was classic hair raised, fluffed up, snot & sperm flying, high t dominance. He would shoot up out of the draw and pound down a buck then rush to the otherside and pound down another.. My son shot the buck without a good look except to the kill shot. It was a 2 1/2 yr 6 point I guess with balls of black powder & testosterone.

I have pics of that young buck hair raised and rushing pushing around big bucks for around a week or maybe even two. Swear the way the bigger older bucks were acting I was expecting to see their fuzzy slippers on. Just odd.

Toward dusk tonight I sat on the deck and listened to either breeding or chasing or fighting going on to the east slope of the hollow. Eventually whatever was happening moved out of my hearing but at least it is happening...

 

[megalomaniac]

Far too many hunters make incorrect assumptions about the rut for 2 reasons... low sample size... just because you personally don't observe an estrus chase or tending does not mean the rut is not going on...for example, 'I hunted all weekend and didn't see a single doe in heat, and I saw 15 of them!'

Or 2... they don't understand the dynamics of the actual breeding cycle... that it starts out with just a sporadic doe or two here and there in estrus, which then triggers the intense seeking phase, leading to peak breeding/ lockdown, then followed by another (although less) intense seeking phase. This is spread out over 2 or 3 weeks... an example would be 'the rut is on! I saw 2 different bucks chase 2 different does like crazy' (but fail to recognize they were just yearling bucks chasing inreceptive does which has little bearing on actual breeding timing).

On my farms, actual seeking and peak breeding were right on time. Signs like orphaned fawns due to mothers being tended by bucks were right on time. Actual tending and breeding by mature bucks was right on time. Scrapes being abandoned/ used less frequently were right on time. But I am more (or less, depending on how you view it) fortunate than most in that I am hunting an intentionally unpressured deer herd prior to the rut with multiple hunters collecting observation data every single day for a 2 week period, in addition to 15 trail cameras collecting data as well.

 

[RockMcL]

I know in my very southern middle tn location that we have fawns dropped over 4 months. Maybe not every year but it does happen.. The January land owner doe season is frustrating for us because we often see the best mature buck activity during that week.

 

[Bushape]

But as for the idea that this year is a very different rut, for western Middle TN, absolutely. The drought has had a major impact on the timing of the rut.

Care to elaborate on how the drought is affecting things? I'm sure you've addressed it on here already but I missed it.

As for the rut occuring at drastically different times within fairly close areas, I hunt in Southern Wayne Co. and have experienced the same thing for years. I used to let this board convince me of the need to hit the woods heavy due to an influx of activity in Hardin or Lawrence. Years of experience has taught me that it just doesn't get going on my lease until early Dec. Everybody talks about being in the woods in November and it just isn't so for me. However, the entire month of December is just amazing. Saw the biggest buck of my life 4 years ago with a pack of does on Christmas eve.