On my soapbox again...

[jag1]

My beef is that the $$$$$ hunting industry is driving the narrative and peoples perceptions.
When was the last time you saw a show or read a magazine where the focus was NOT on merchandising hunting gear, outfitters, animals, racks or the like?
IMO 90% of hunting and the joy of hunting has nothing to do with the animal you kill. Your buddies will congratulate you and slap you on the back for that booner, but 10 minutes later have lost interest and are looking for a beer. The whole rest of the world doesn't know or care about the size (marketability) of your deer.
Look at how a deer is evaluated. Not by the Joy or camaraderie, or quality time spent in nature (too hard to monetize) but by antler score, age class, body weight, points, rack spread, weapon used or other monetizable metric (score) the industry can figure out how to sell. Then telling you those attributes are what is important and you should look for approval for meeting their standards. Its creating a deer hunters narcissism that ultimately results in dissatisfaction.

When I'm sitting down to breakfast w/my daughter eating backstrap and her homemade biscuits, I don't give a rat's rear-end about those horns. Sometimes deer hunting for me is almost like grocery shopping. I'm there to get meat and enjoy God's creation and relax from the stresses of life. If something good comes along, so much the better.

 

[TheLBLman]

When was the last time you saw a show or read a magazine where the focus was NOT on merchandising hunting gear, outfitters, animals, racks or the like?

Until fairly recently, QUALITY WHITETAILS was the one magazine where the focus was NOT on crap that didn't matter, but rather on the real issues that do. Over the past few years, they also greatly succumbed to most the above, negating what had been their great messaging.

Look at how a deer is evaluated. Not by the Joy or camaraderie, or quality time spent in nature (too hard to monetize) but by antler score, age class, body weight, points, rack spread, weapon used or other monetizable metric (score) the industry can figure out how to sell.

I agree. I described all deer, first & foremost, by sex, then estimated age. There's nothing wrong with additional description, but it has been exploited. You'll have to pull it out of me, regarding how many "points" a buck has, and I care little about "score", almost annually passing up higher "scoring" bucks than the older deer (often female ones) "chosen" for the wall & the freezer.

Choosing what is killed by sex & age is the biggest part of my personal herd management plan, and, what satisfies me most regarding "which" deer I put in the freezer (and on the wall). It's a biologically sound strategy, and least effected by all the marketing gimmicks.

 

[KevinC]

Hunting shows have ruined hunting for alot of people. They buy into the BS that they see and hear. Then when they don't see and kill a big buck they feel let down. The only deciding factor when I pull the trigger is if I like the way the buck looks and acts when I see him. I have let good deer walk just because I just enjoyed watching him do his thing. The hunting shows I don't like is the ones when they do kill a buck they start hyperventilating and thanking God for letting them kill the buck over and over. Don't get me wrong, I thank God for letting be able to in nature and enjoying what he created but not for killing a deer.

You don't like Stan Plotts?

 

[Ski]

several years ago i noticed that it seemed that I just could not get the quality of bucks I wanted, and still that way today to be honest.
the vast majority of bucks just do not have the genetic ability to exceed a 130 in 8 point class

How many 130" 8pts have you actually stuck a tape to? When you only have 8 tines to measure, it takes a whole lotta buck to reach 130".

I far too often see guys on TV guesstimating rack scores on the hoof, and more often than not they're not even close. It's so bad that there are times I have to question myself on how I'm measuring, thinking I must have missed something, then I have to start over & do it again. My taxidermist brother tells me the worst part of his job is having to give the score to guys who just know the deer scored higher, and he has to explain to them that it's a respectable big buck even if the number isn't as high as they'd hoped. He then has to show them what an actual 150" 10pt looks like, and when seeing them side by side they finally understand. Too many hunters have such a skewed idea of what a rack should score, and I think it's because of what they see on TV & social media.

I'm not saying that's you. Your post only made me think of that. You might have dozens of 130" 8s running around for all I know. If you do and need them "culled", I'd happy to help you out with it!

For reference, here's a 131" 5.5yr old 8pt. I'm 6'2"x240lbs lean, and he's as big as I am. He's missing several inches of his right beam tip and left g3, but still wouldn't have made it much past 135".

 

[budro2]

How many 130" 8pts have you actually stuck a tape to? When you only have 8 tines to measure, it takes a whole lotta buck to reach 130".

I far too often see guys on TV guesstimating rack scores on the hoof, and more often than not they're not even close. It's so bad that there are times I have to question myself on how I'm measuring, thinking I must have missed something, then I have to start over & do it again. My taxidermist brother tells me the worst part of his job is having to give the score to guys who just know the deer scored higher, and he has to explain to them that it's a respectable big buck even if the number isn't as high as they'd hoped. He then has to show them what an actual 150" 10pt looks like, and when seeing them side by side they finally understand. Too many hunters have such a skewed idea of what a rack should score, and I think it's because of what they see on TV & social media.

I'm not saying that's you. Your post only made me think of that. You might have dozens of 130" 8s running around for all I know. If you do and need them "culled", I'd happy to help you out with it!

For reference, here's a 131" 5.5yr old 8pt. I'm 6'2"x240lbs lean, and he's as big as I am. He's missing several inches of his right beam tip and left g3, but still wouldn't have made it much past 135".

I understand, Ive seen a lot of "one fifties" on fake book that maybe had the wrong camera angle. lol

But,
I really do know how to score one, and Ive seen that tape cause a lot of people to cringe.
I even was asked to score a brute last year that someone had taped at 193, he was within 5 inches, but like I told him, its your deer and an absolute monster, who cares if its 187 or 193.
It does not take a lot of skill set to measure a deer, just takes a good 1/4 in tape and understanding the rules. some times a NT;'s main frame determination or a fused tine may have question but typicals are easy.

Ill pass 120-130 in bucks every year, in TN, that 25 years ago I would have swam theTN river , naked in December just to get an opportunity at one that size.
see the deer in my avatar or whatever they call it, thats the last true giant I've chased, he grossed 186/187 or so, and turned out to only be 4 yr old. he changed so much from a 3 to a 4 yr old I did not reconize him until after my son put an arrow in him.
that was 3 seasons ago and an IL deer, btw..

Yes, I do hunt different states, last year I hunted KY, IL and Iowa and did not fire a shot.
I hunted here ( TN) during thanksgivin week and tagged out ( that was a first for me) on a gross 153 10 point.
my second best TN deer ever, and he will net 150s.
I dont even run cameras at home place any more like i do out of state.
That way I dont have any expectations and to be honest, makes it more fun.

 

[JeepKuntry]

I don't watch many shows on tv. If I do I basically take zero advise from them. Their situation and mine are night and day. It certainly can be frustrating as they play a pivotal role of influence of what can be perceived as proper etiquette and the what they should be doing. As an fyi I have always valued your opinion as you are a in the field, research, practical person. Most of my the shows/podcasts I watch come from youtube. There can be egos but I have learned a lot about mapping and hope it applies to this season in terms of sightings.

 

[budro2]

How many 130" 8pts have you actually stuck a tape to? When you only have 8 tines to measure, it takes a whole lotta buck to reach 130".

I far too often see guys on TV guesstimating rack scores on the hoof, and more often than not they're not even close. It's so bad that there are times I have to question myself on how I'm measuring, thinking I must have missed something, then I have to start over & do it again. My taxidermist brother tells me the worst part of his job is having to give the score to guys who just know the deer scored higher, and he has to explain to them that it's a respectable big buck even if the number isn't as high as they'd hoped. He then has to show them what an actual 150" 10pt looks like, and when seeing them side by side they finally understand. Too many hunters have such a skewed idea of what a rack should score, and I think it's because of what they see on TV & social media.

I'm not saying that's you. Your post only made me think of that. You might have dozens of 130" 8s running around for all I know. If you do and need them "culled", I'd happy to help you out with it!

For reference, here's a 131" 5.5yr old 8pt. I'm 6'2"x240lbs lean, and he's as big as I am. He's missing several inches of his right beam tip and left g3, but still wouldn't have made it much past 135".

thats a good mature buck for sure, look at his chest.
I dont see the missing inches, but his brows def help him break 130.
It been a while since i read the study, but only like 5% of bucks have the genetic makeup to exceed 150 at maturity.

 

[Bushape]

Hunting shows have ruined hunting for alot of people. They buy into the BS that they see and hear. Then when they don't see and kill a big buck they feel let down. The only deciding factor when I pull the trigger is if I like the way the buck looks and acts when I see him. I have let good deer walk just because I just enjoyed watching him do his thing. The hunting shows I don't like is the ones when they do kill a buck they start hyperventilating and thanking God for letting them kill the buck over and over. Don't get me wrong, I thank God for letting be able to in nature and enjoying what he created but not for killing a deer.

I hate the hyperventilating too. While I would deffinately thank God if I was able to harvest a monster I certainly wouldn't have a breakdown and start boohooing when I killed my 50th 130" deer.

 

[backyardtndeer]

I quit watching tv hunting shows years ago and don't miss them. Definitely get where your are coming from though.

I like to kill one buck every year as well, but came up empty handed last year. Mature deer just never did seem to use our farm like we usually see.

 

[fairchaser]

These ideas a great in a wild healthy free ranging herd. Throw CWD in the mix and most of your hard work and planning gets trashed. This is especially evident when you find the bucks you've been passing up for 3 years laying in a pile of skeleton bones. Enough to make a grown man cry.

 

[hammer33]

When I was new to hunting it was, Can I kill a dee?. Those were the best! Anything was a success.
Then I got into trophy hunting. It was miserable. Nothing was good enough, and even when I did kill a good deer, it rang hollow.
Now I barely remember the deer I kill but remember the fun I had hunting with friends and sharing the experience. Hunting is awesome again.
*note* not pooping on someone who enjoys a certain style of hunting, just saying that the deer you kill really aren't very important.

 

[Stumpsitter]

I remember back in the early mid '80's is was a big deal to get a buck in my area. I can remember it was a big deal just to find some sign or to even see a deer. All these shows have done is give a lot of people a false sense of reality of what there property can or will produce. It doesn't matter how big his rack is , if you're happy with him then take him. That's what I tell whoever hunts my place. I choose not to shoot smaller deer by choice. I let my limit and then some walk every year. I know that some get harvested and that's fine. It's my choice. The deer I've let walk have been a lot of kids first on my neighbors property and that's a good thing. The long and short story is this, the hunting industry has taken a lot of the magic out of it for a lot of people ,though it has helped with some of the technology, it has taken away some of the purity out of deer hunting. Just my opinion.

 

[Moonman]

Great post! We are eaf up with the pet deer so bucks are few ob my 45 acres. I'll take a buck if I get a chance but the does ear me alive. They are the best eating. They eat my garden so I figure I should get one or two.

 

[BSK]

I also don't want anyone to think this is a discussion between passing or not passing bucks. I pass up a lot of bucks every year. The other hunters on the property pass up a lot of bucks, even bucks that are "legal" shooters by our rules. But late in the season, a buck I've already passed may not be so lucky a second time!

 

[Headhunter]

Great post, only about 20 years or so late. I have been saying the exact same thing since the late 1990's and amazing how much people blast me, tell me I am an idiot, etc. when I say the basically the exact same thing. I have and still tell them a "cull buck" does not exist in the majority of deer hunters worlds. If you want to kill a buck, kill it, you can but if you only kill it because it you believe it is a cull, a management buck, etc. then that is just an excuse to kill a buck. Far from the only reason, but for sure one of the reasons I have almost never watched any hunting shows.

 

[TheLBLman]

I also don't want anyone to think this is a discussion between passing or not passing bucks. I pass up a lot of bucks every year. The other hunters on the property pass up a lot of bucks, even bucks that are "legal" shooters by our rules. But late in the season, a buck I've already passed may not be so lucky a second time!

I believe BSK and I see pretty much eye-to-eye on most aspects of deer management, and likely most aspects of deer hunting.

One exception, late season, I tend to raise my personal standards regarding just what constitutes a "shooter" buck.

My exception to this would be a fully mature buck presenting at the end of the season, AND, my having little hope remaining for a pre-determined target buck. Otherwise, there is generally no way I'm later in the season killing a buck previously given a pass. The pass is generally good at least until the next year.

My thinking is that ANY mature buck is a cherished trophy, I eat venison, and mature bucks have a lower probability of surviving (until next hunting season) compared to a middle-aged buck.

And, most any (late-season) middle-aged buck has a high probability of surviving to next season when he will in fact then be an older buck, likely becoming a greater harvest accomplishment for some hunter, than had I decided to just kill him late season. Anything younger than mature still gets a pass, regardless of early or late season.

Will also say that that "shooter buck standards" are just as site specific as other aspects of deer management (for me).

 

[Ski]

My thinking is that ANY mature buck is a cherished trophy

Me too. I know a few guys who won't shoot an old bruiser because he's missing tines or just over the hill & not as impressive. Not me. I like those old survivors & fighters.

 

[BSK]

Good post TheLBLman. To each his own. I have the highest regard for those who are perfectly happy living by very strict personal standards for what they shoot and not compromising. As long as they are "perfectly happy" with that.

 

[TheLBLman]

Thanks, BSK.

As long as they are "perfectly happy" with that.

One of the more difficult thoughts to convey to other hunters is that many of us are in fact "perfectly happy" going buck-less when we don't see a buck we want to shoot. Doesn't really seem like some "strict" personal standard, but rather a fulfilment of a plan coming together.

Part of this has to do with genuinely wanting to help other hunters take what would to them be a "trophy" buck, sometimes even their best buck to date. In that regard, I was greatly rewarded this past deer season.

Did not say I'm "perfectly" happy going deer-less, as I do regularly eat venison.
For that purpose, I'm "perfectly happy" taking a doe or two or three annually.
If I kill a buck, or two, I cut back a doe, or two.
Practically speaking, somewhere between one and three deer annually keeps an ample supply of venison in my freezer.

Like most deer hunters, I am both a "meat" and a "trophy" hunter, making no apologies for either. Unlike some, I consider a mature doe a better "trophy" than a middle-aged buck. Since there are usually plenty of doe (of all ages), just really have no need, no desire to kill a middle-aged (or younger) buck.

Still, I'm not going to be "unhappy" if I'm just "unlucky".
I really do enjoy the hunting, just being able to hunt is a blessing for which I'm grateful and happy.

Combine the above with being an avid wildlife photographer, a somewhat successful "hunter-manager" . . . . . . .
guess can say am still "perfectly happy" when a year ends buck-less.

Looking Forward to a Great 2021 Deer Season!

 

[7mm08]

You missed the number one factor on those "management bucks" in TX. Those ranches don't have to the population dynamics for every client to kill a "trophy" buck, so they do you a favor (wink wink) and charge you less for a management buck all the while hunters think they're getting a deal and doing the ranch a favor but all its actually about is the ranch making more money.
I have friends who work those ranches. They get culled whether a paying hunter kills it or the hired help. So it's nothing more than a money racket.

Are you saying sitting in a heated box 100 yards from a pile of corn in the road isn't sporty? But hey IF those " management bucks" pay the bills and keeps the developers away..... I'm all for it.