On my soapbox again...

[fairchaser]

Trophy deer, management buck, cull buck, B&C buck, P&Y buck, six pointer, 8 pointer, non-typical, personal best buck, dandy ( my least favorite description) buck and even monster buck. I don't have an issue with names but anyone who pulls the trigger or releases a string should be thankful for whatever they kill. It gave its very life for you and it can't do anything else after that final act.

 

[beefydeer]

I've been hearing ya'll talk about him. How does one go about watching his stuff, Youtube?

Yes, Youtube

 

[TheLBLman]

I almost never watch TV hunting shows because they're so unrealistic, and often present inaccurate biological/management information. . . . . . I also think they often present hunters in a poor light . . . . .

Pretty much my thoughts as well.

I used to feel like I "needed" to kill multiple deer and at least one buck EVERY year.

Now, I truly just enjoy deer hunting, but my ultimate enjoyment is doing that hunting where at least fair opportunities exist for a fully mature buck. For the past many years, I've averaged less than a buck a year, and more than one doe annually.

Nothing wrong with what BSK or anyone else decides makes him happy.

It's all about enjoying the journey.
I know some cannot imagine, but many of us really do "enjoy" passing up some really nice middle-aged bucks, and enjoy passing them up more than shooting them, before it's time.

One of the best definitions of "happiness" is
having something for which to look forward.

Looking forward to the next deer season.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

It wasn't Land of Whitetail was it? LOL I was watching that and had the same thoughts. With hunting shows, you just have to grab the info you can utilize for your specific scenario and discard the other 98%

 

[Ski]

The only deciding factor when I pull the trigger is if I like the way the buck looks and acts when I see him.

Me too. My Ohio buck a few years ago was a 2.5yr old 8pt that probably barely busted 100". He came running to my rattling with his head thrashing & pummeling every thumb diameter tree he could reach, just an incredible show. I drew & released an arrow so fluidly and without much thought. For a moment after I felt conflicted because he was so young, but then I reminded myself of what an awesome experience I just had, and I felt good about it.

I was still a little bothered that I didn't execute better self control. I honestly don't remember drawing the bow or aiming. My brother came with me to drag the deer out and when he saw it, he excitedly asked me if he could have the cape. I told him of course, but why? He said a little girl & her father had come in to his taxidermy shop a couple days prior because she shot her fist buck and wanted it mounted, but the cape had been ruined. Her buck was a 2.5yr old 8pt that could have been a twin to mine. Me shooting the deer allowed that kid to get her mount, plus the business it provided for my brother. I didn't know it at the time of the shot but I'm pretty certain in hindsight that I didn't have much choice. It happened the way it was supposed to happen.

 

[bobbuck]

So glad you are back BSK. Always enjoy reading your posts even though I do not deer hunt anymore. Thank you for sharing your opinions and knowlege.

 

[jag1]

He said a little girl & her father had come in to his taxidermy shop a couple days prior because she shot her fist buck and wanted it mounted, but the cape had been ruined. Her buck was a 2.5yr old 8pt that could have been a twin to mine. Me shooting the deer allowed that kid to get her mount, plus the business it provided for my brother. I didn't know it at the time of the shot but I'm pretty certain in hindsight that I didn't have much choice. It happened the way it was supposed to happen.

That's what I like to call a God moment!

 

[Jbow72]

I used to be on a lease that had a set trophy standard. Funny thing is the leaders or managers of the lease killed so called management bucks every year while the rest of us passed. Needless to say I am not on that lease anymore.

 

[BSK]

To make perfectly clear, let me state that my rant is NOT denigrating those who have high standards and refuse to compromise on those standards, letting many bucks walk each year to the point of going buckless in some years. I absolutely applaud those hunters. They are truly walking the walk, and I have great admiration for that kind of fortitude and commitment. However, that's just not me, and I'm OK with that.

I've been lucky enough that over the last dozen years or so, I've kill a mature buck or top-end 3 1/2 about 3 out of every 5 years. But in those 2 out of 5 years I haven't, as the season dwindles down, I will happily kill a 2 1/2 year-old buck. I do so because I enjoy the experience and because the property I hunt can easily sustain that year after year.

 

[TNGunsmoke]

I like to eat deer, and we eat about 3 a year, so that is what I try to shoot. Most years I am successful at it, a few I am not. I shot 2 this year, but I hit one with the truck, and had her ground up to make my 3 in the freezer. I look more at body size instead of antler size. I like to shoot big bucks as much as anyone, but a big bodied deer is a big bodied deer.

 

[BSK]

I dont enjoy hunting unless I can kill a buck. I dont have to kill one to have fun, but I need to at least have a chance for hunting to be enjoyable. Problem is, we can't afford for everyone I allow to hunt to shoot 2 bucks every year, so I have a 1 buck limit. That caused a new problem. Noone wanted to shoot the old deer at the bottom end of the gene pool. They kept getting passed up by all the adults, kept fighting and injuring my top 3.5yos, and just generally ran the place.

After a few years of that style management, I added my 'cull' buck as a 2nd tag. I am the judge, jury, and executioner. I make the call based on trail camera pictures and past sightings if a deer meets the 'cull' buck list. To make the list, it has to be a mature buck scoring less than 120 gross inches. We usually have 2 or 3 each year, and anyone can shoot one of those bucks and it not count as your 'buck of choice' tag. Its a good way to ensure the highest scoring bucks are spread out amongst all that hunt my farms, while still allowing those to keep hunting for a cull even after they have shot their buck of choice.

Am I deluding myself thinking that killing these culls is improving local genetics? Of course not. But these heavy deer provide a lot of sausage, additional hunting opportunity, and may save some middle aged bucks from injuring their pedicles and negatively impacting their rack at maturity.

The problem with 'management' bucks is that whats killed in the actual hunting world, 50% have pedicle injuries and there's nothing wrong with their genetics, 45% are too young to even begin to express their genetic potential, and only 5% are actually genetically inferior bucks.

Here's a few examples of my 'culls' in the past few years

The first is a 5.5yo, 245lb 5pt that scored 116in

The second is a 4.5yo, 192lb 8pt that scored 106in

The third was an oops... I misjudged him as 4.5 when I passed him up earlier in the year,, but he was only 3.5, 165lbs. Injured in 2019 with base of skull below pedicle broken, surprised he survived.

A GREAT post Mega, and the exact RIGHT way to handle true "management" bucks in a club setting. In that situation, "management" bucks are a way of creating extra hunting opportunity. In situations where buck harvest criteria is very high, using bucks that will never meet the harvest standards as "bonus" bucks creates a lot of extra hunting opportunity. On large managed properties where harvest criteria are high, often few total bucks are being harvested each year, yet the property can easily sustain more total bucks being harvested. In that situation, creating "bonus" bucks can actually create a whole new focus for some hunters. I've even seen situations where individual members of a club become "professional bonus buck" hunters. They become super focused on trying to hunt the bonus bucks. This tends to "spread out" hunting pressure on the bucks that do make the club minimums, and simply creates a lot of "free" harvest opportunities.

 

[BARhunter]

The term "management buck" is obviously being overused and also being used as a "for profit" marketing tool. Great post BSK!

 

[Ski]

That's what I like to call a God moment!

That's the way I see it, too.

 

[budro2]

Everyone hunts for different reasons, and we all manage for different reasons.

There are valid reasons for shooting "management bucks" , for most its just a phrase or an excuse.
but for some , it does have real meaning.
Yes,I agree that your impact on genetics is marginal, but what it does do is remove that buck from your food supply , pecking order and the gene pool.
and that allows another buck to take its place, granted it could be better or worse.

Mark Buxton is a wldlife biologist that manages for private landowners both large and small in alabama and SC I believe. He has some impressive results and have a very logical approach depending upon what his landowners desire.

several years ago i noticed that it seemed that I just could not get the quality of bucks I wanted, and still that way today to be honest.
the vast majority of bucks just do not have the genetic ability to exceed a 130 in 8 point class, so I began to think :
Are we high grading our buck population, I know my family has.
we see good bucks on reg basis but have matured to the point we really dont care anything about shooting a 130 in 8 point anymore, but let that 4 yr old 145 in deer show up and we melt the barrel.

and we all know that there is NO Way to determine what genes a doe carries and its proven that she contibutes at least 50% to what antlers her offspring will grow.

I think its no different than high grading timber on a harvest, or keeping the best bulls to breed your heifers. ( even thought this has much more control)
In a wild herd, what I do may help the neighbor more than myself, but at least some one will benefit.

Anway, back to the discussion, when a buck reaches 3 yr old and you have enough history to know his age and see that he lacks potential , its time to put him in the freezer.
Or better yet, let a young hunter shoot him if possible.

I do believe that management bucks are real, and removal serves a good purpose, I just think that most of us do not have the ability to determine unless we have photo history of them.

look up Mark Buxton on Fake book and read some of his opinions, hes pretty plain spoken about it but hes not selling minerals, feed or hunts as some on TV do.

 

[budro2]

I dont enjoy hunting unless I can kill a buck. I dont have to kill one to have fun, but I need to at least have a chance for hunting to be enjoyable. Problem is, we can't afford for everyone I allow to hunt to shoot 2 bucks every year, so I have a 1 buck limit. That caused a new problem. Noone wanted to shoot the old deer at the bottom end of the gene pool. They kept getting passed up by all the adults, kept fighting and injuring my top 3.5yos, and just generally ran the place.

After a few years of that style management, I added my 'cull' buck as a 2nd tag. I am the judge, jury, and executioner. I make the call based on trail camera pictures and past sightings if a deer meets the 'cull' buck list. To make the list, it has to be a mature buck scoring less than 120 gross inches. We usually have 2 or 3 each year, and anyone can shoot one of those bucks and it not count as your 'buck of choice' tag. Its a good way to ensure the highest scoring bucks are spread out amongst all that hunt my farms, while still allowing those to keep hunting for a cull even after they have shot their buck of choice.

Am I deluding myself thinking that killing these culls is improving local genetics? Of course not. But these heavy deer provide a lot of sausage, additional hunting opportunity, and may save some middle aged bucks from injuring their pedicles and negatively impacting their rack at maturity.

The problem with 'management' bucks is that whats killed in the actual hunting world, 50% have pedicle injuries and there's nothing wrong with their genetics, 45% are too young to even begin to express their genetic potential, and only 5% are actually genetically inferior bucks.

Here's a few examples of my 'culls' in the past few years

The first is a 5.5yo, 245lb 5pt that scored 116in

The second is a 4.5yo, 192lb 8pt that scored 106in

The third was an oops... I misjudged him as 4.5 when I passed him up earlier in the year,, but he was only 3.5, 165lbs. Injured in 2019 with base of skull below pedicle broken, surprised he survived.

Your post is absolutley spot on, or at least I agree with it,
that and $1 will get you a cup of coffee somewhere.

 

[easy45]

I dont enjoy hunting unless I can kill a buck. I dont have to kill one to have fun, but I need to at least have a chance for hunting to be enjoyable. Problem is, we can't afford for everyone I allow to hunt to shoot 2 bucks every year, so I have a 1 buck limit. That caused a new problem. Noone wanted to shoot the old deer at the bottom end of the gene pool. They kept getting passed up by all the adults, kept fighting and injuring my top 3.5yos, and just generally ran the place.

After a few years of that style management, I added my 'cull' buck as a 2nd tag. I am the judge, jury, and executioner. I make the call based on trail camera pictures and past sightings if a deer meets the 'cull' buck list. To make the list, it has to be a mature buck scoring less than 120 gross inches. We usually have 2 or 3 each year, and anyone can shoot one of those bucks and it not count as your 'buck of choice' tag. Its a good way to ensure the highest scoring bucks are spread out amongst all that hunt my farms, while still allowing those to keep hunting for a cull even after they have shot their buck of choice.

Am I deluding myself thinking that killing these culls is improving local genetics? Of course not. But these heavy deer provide a lot of sausage, additional hunting opportunity, and may save some middle aged bucks from injuring their pedicles and negatively impacting their rack at maturity.

The problem with 'management' bucks is that whats killed in the actual hunting world, 50% have pedicle injuries and there's nothing wrong with their genetics, 45% are too young to even begin to express their genetic potential, and only 5% are actually genetically inferior bucks.

Here's a few examples of my 'culls' in the past few years

The first is a 5.5yo, 245lb 5pt that scored 116in

The second is a 4.5yo, 192lb 8pt that scored 106in

The third was an oops... I misjudged him as 4.5 when I passed him up earlier in the year,, but he was only 3.5, 165lbs. Injured in 2019 with base of skull below pedicle broken, surprised he survived.

Your not killing cull bucks in the sense of what BSK is talking about, your simply wanting mature bucks killed, especially those that are keeping higher antler quality deer away. I do the same on our farms, we just try to kill mature deer. We don't allow other hunters besides a kid or two.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Everyone hunts for different reasons, and we all manage for different reasons.

There are valid reasons for shooting "management bucks" , for most its just a phrase or an excuse.
but for some , it does have real meaning.
Yes,I agree that your impact on genetics is marginal, but what it does do is remove that buck from your food supply , pecking order and the gene pool.
and that allows another buck to take its place, granted it could be better or worse.

Mark Buxton is a wldlife biologist that manages for private landowners both large and small in alabama and SC I believe. He has some impressive results and have a very logical approach depending upon what his landowners desire.

several years ago i noticed that it seemed that I just could not get the quality of bucks I wanted, and still that way today to be honest.
the vast majority of bucks just do not have the genetic ability to exceed a 130 in 8 point class, so I began to think :
Are we high grading our buck population, I know my family has.
we see good bucks on reg basis but have matured to the point we really dont care anything about shooting a 130 in 8 point anymore, but let that 4 yr old 145 in deer show up and we melt the barrel.

and we all know that there is NO Way to determine what genes a doe carries and its proven that she contibutes at least 50% to what antlers her offspring will grow.

I think its no different than high grading timber on a harvest, or keeping the best bulls to breed your heifers. ( even thought this has much more control)
In a wild herd, what I do may help the neighbor more than myself, but at least some one will benefit.

Anway, back to the discussion, when a buck reaches 3 yr old and you have enough history to know his age and see that he lacks potential , its time to put him in the freezer.
Or better yet, let a young hunter shoot him if possible.

I do believe that management bucks are real, and removal serves a good purpose, I just think that most of us do not have the ability to determine unless we have photo history of them.

look up Mark Buxton on Fake book and read some of his opinions, hes pretty plain spoken about it but hes not selling minerals, feed or hunts as some on TV do.

budro2,

You make a couple of good points I agree with.....taking a "management buck" does remove a deer from eating available food supply....and it does make room for another buck to remain in the area.... especially if the management buck has that "bully" attitude..... lastly I agree the effects on the gene pool is marginal.... actually minimal at best.
But having 130" 8pt's...with occasionally seeing 145" bucks....I'd say your doing something right!!

Zero doubt "killing deer" is a tool for the land and habitat manager...we need to take some deer....and/or improve the habitat to carry more deer on the property.

But I may be getting off topic from the original post....the frustration is with people who kill a buck and then make excuses of why they killed the buck....and I agree...that's very irritating.

 

[DeerCamp]

I promised myself I wouldn't do this, but I can't hold my tongue.

To start, I almost never watch TV hunting shows because they're so unrealistic, and often present inaccurate biological/management information. To say they infuriate me would be an understatement. I also think they often present hunters in a poor light, but that's the topic for a different rant. This rant is about how overblown and misused the practice of "management bucks" has become. The concept of "management bucks," bucks that can be removed from a population because they will never meet the goals of the management program, comes from massive trophy ranches in Texas. On these ranches, very, VERY few trophy bucks per area are actually being removed each year, hence more bucks have to be removed to keep deer densities in line. Since more bucks have to be removed, they choose to remove bucks that are highly unlikely to ever become trophy bucks, such as very underperforming (well below average) 3 1/2 and 4 1/2 year-old bucks. These are "management bucks" - bucks that are removed for total deer density concerns, and they are chosen because they are unlikely to meet management goals. But unless you have quite a few thousand acres to work with, and have near COMPLETE control over the local deer population, and ABSOLUTELY NEED more bucks removed than you currently are, few have any legitimate reason to actually be removing management bucks.

Well, I'm scrolling through the channels the other day and I come across a deer hunting program and I see the show's host talking about managing his small farm and all the things he's doing for the deer herd (and most of it is well thought out and appropriate), but then he gets on a kick talking about how important his management buck program is - removing "inferior" bucks. He talks about how he tries to take at least one management buck each year, and how that's just as important as taking enough does and habitat management.

So here's my soapbox opinion: I think "management buck" has become the new "cull buck" excuse for shooting a buck. Just claim the smaller than management goal criteria buck you shot was a management buck. Do so while sounding regretful that it has to be done. Explain how much good that buck's removal will do for the herd in the long run. Tada! You've just assuaged and hidden your inner guilt for the fact you really just like killing a buck or two every year. How about this instead? Admit you really want to kill at least one buck each year. You do your part by not shooting young bucks, but when the chips are down, you still want to take an older buck, even if it isn't a top-end older buck. So swallow your pride and do so. No harm to the herd done. Who cares what your buddies/peers think? Your hunting and management enjoyment is yours and yours alone, and should not be about what others will think. Shoot an older buck of choice, no matter his antler size, and enjoy the experience.

This is ultimately the reason I left the "Tennessee Deer Hunters" facebook group.

No point in fighting the fight, so I just ejected.

When it comes to hunting shows, I love Meat Eater, The Western Hunter and Solo Hunter. All public land. All good folks. Throw a few epi's of Catman in there too

 

[hammer33]

My beef is that the $$$$$ hunting industry is driving the narrative and peoples perceptions.
When was the last time you saw a show or read a magazine where the focus was NOT on merchandising hunting gear, outfitters, animals, racks or the like?
IMO 90% of hunting and the joy of hunting has nothing to do with the animal you kill. Your buddies will congratulate you and slap you on the back for that booner, but 10 minutes later have lost interest and are looking for a beer. The whole rest of the world doesn't know or care about the size (marketability) of your deer.
Look at how a deer is evaluated. Not by the Joy or camaraderie, or quality time spent in nature (too hard to monetize) but by antler score, age class, body weight, points, rack spread, weapon used or other monetizable metric (score) the industry can figure out how to sell. Then telling you those attributes are what is important and you should look for approval for meeting their standards. Its creating a deer hunters narcissism that ultimately results in dissatisfaction.

 

[Nimrod777]

Thanks for the post, BSK, and since you haven't heard me say it yet, I'm glad you are back!