Turkey Population Decline - The data I think we need

[Bone Collector]

I made my first trip to Mississippi this year on a WMA. You have to electronically check in and out daliy. When you check out you are prompted to fill out quick survey on sighting and hearing. Also asks if your hunt was satisfactory. Something like this would work maybe.

that would be really cool, UNLESS they post the survey results online allowing others from in and out of state to vector in on the WMA. The kill #'s do that already....

 

[Bone Collector]

I thought last year that the hen was eliminated from the tags in Fall season?

You are correct. However, I think this is the first or second year. I could be wrong on that, but it wasn't long ago you could shoot 6 hens in one county, cross the county line and shoot 6 more.

 

[Sasquatch Boogie Outdoors]

40 years ago I never walked up the old logging road behind my house without flushing at least 1 or 2 grouse, (ain't seen 1 in years). Rarely in the evening could you set outside without the beautiful call of a bobwhite quail ( ain't seen or heard one in years). There were some bird hunters around back then but I promise you that they were not the reason that those species are now all but extinct on the upper east side. Maybe if we find out what happen to the grouse and quail we will know what's happening to the turkey. Just a thought

 

[DeerCamp]

40 years ago I never walked up the old logging road behind my house without flushing at least 1 or 2 grouse, (ain't seen 1 in years). Rarely in the evening could you set outside without the beautiful call of a bobwhite quail ( ain't seen or heard one in years). There were some bird hunters around back then but I promise you that they were not the reason that those species are now all but extinct on the upper east side. Maybe if we find out what happen to the grouse and quail we will know what's happening to the turkey. Just a thought

It's a great point. A really great point, actually.

I haven't seen any data on increases in coyote populations for Tennessee, but there has to be some connections to things not related to hunting.

 

[DeerCamp]

40 years ago I never walked up the old logging road behind my house without flushing at least 1 or 2 grouse, (ain't seen 1 in years). Rarely in the evening could you set outside without the beautiful call of a bobwhite quail ( ain't seen or heard one in years). There were some bird hunters around back then but I promise you that they were not the reason that those species are now all but extinct on the upper east side. Maybe if we find out what happen to the grouse and quail we will know what's happening to the turkey. Just a thought

Ruffed Grouse Decline Linked to Loss of Young Forest | Woodcock population and young forest habitat management - Timberdoodle.org

timberdoodle.org

 

[Setterman]

Ruffed Grouse Decline Linked to Loss of Young Forest | Woodcock population and young forest habitat management - Timberdoodle.org

timberdoodle.org

This may be true in some places but not this area. We have more ideal grouse habitat now than at any point in my life. They just vanished. Sadly I don't see anyway they're ever coming back either

 

[Carlos]

The free turkey hunting permit idea is one of the best suggestions I've heard.

Someone needs to send this in to the agency, maybe they could implement it for next season.

 

[AT Hiker]

I proposed a $5 turkey stamp. 100% proceeds go to land access.
It fell on death ears.

 

[Hymie3]

I've felt it's a multitude of reasons for a while now. Predators and habitat loss in my opinion are mostly to blame. On my lease there are thousands of virtually untouched acres and population is doing ok. Around the house where I live that used to be in the country and is now being overdeveloped the populations are down. Coyotes and raccoons are everywhere around the house. Even killing my chickens in broad daylight. I cannot discount the experienced hunters and new products available either. And yes, I'm waging war on the coyotes and coons.

 

[poorhunter]

I think the turkeys in suburbia are in long established and still semi wooded areas. Basically neighborhoods that have been around for decades. This explosive new growth and development of new neighborhoods has absolutory led to the decline of countless flocks.

Wouldn't this coincide with the decline in populations that are not in suburbia though? Populations are declining in all areas at the same time, across all habitat types. Where I live and hunt it is very rural, larges tracts of timber interspersed with some hay fields and pastures, with very very little row crop acreage. The population dropped off the face of the earth in the blink of an eye. In the big picture nothing has changed habitat wise at all. Small things here and there yes, but nothing that would spell the demise on the scale we saw. Turkeys are able to not only survive but thrive in many different environments (both micro and macro). From deserts to swamps, high plains to deep forests, rural to suburban…they are just plain so adaptable in so many ways to so many areas. Their diet is basically unlimited. Yes, everything in the woods wants to eat them, but everything always has wanted to eat them. What I am saying is that there is something else going on that we are just not putting our finger on. Predators, with very rare exceptions, decimate a prey population to the extent we are seeing on such a widespread basis with turkeys, by their predation. Are they a factor? Yes, of course, but that factor is a constant in the equation. I think it's way to simplistic to blame this on habitat loss and predators.

Now, I know these are my own musings, and I could very easily be way off base.

 

[poorhunter]

I've always wondered if this were the case.

The first year I moved here and saw how many turkeys there were, I assumed that the reason I saw so many hens without poults in May and June was because they simply either didn't lay or were infertile because of the high population. That was my first thought, I have zero proof nor have I read any studies that suggest it is a possibility with turkeys. It's not unheard of in the animal kingdom though.

 

[useyourbow]

40 years ago I never walked up the old logging road behind my house without flushing at least 1 or 2 grouse, (ain't seen 1 in years). Rarely in the evening could you set outside without the beautiful call of a bobwhite quail ( ain't seen or heard one in years). There were some bird hunters around back then but I promise you that they were not the reason that those species are now all but extinct on the upper east side. Maybe if we find out what happen to the grouse and quail we will know what's happening to the turkey. Just a thought

Fire ants.

 

[useyourbow]

My $.02. Most deer hunters bait with corn these days. If you don't your neighbors are. Two things come of this. Turkeys become patternable going to corn piles and get ambushed by predators.

Second, availability of corn makes for fat raccoons. Nature provides for greater reproduction when conditions are good so those fat raccoons breed more. Hardly any fur trappers so the raccoons, all 12 under your feeder in fall need to feed in the spring when feeding corn is illegal. No corn, more time for turkey nest raiding.

 

[Shag]

Both deer and turkeys had to be restocked because people decimated the native populations.

The plains were once filled with bison before people decimated the population.

People CAN and HAVE wiped out animal populations in the past. I'm gonna blame people more than anything. Too many hunters killing too many birds. Too many people building and developing leading to habitat loss. Predators and nest raiders definitely don't help. And there's been lots of good points brought up in this post. Great food for thought, guys.

I wish the populations were like they were 20ish years ago. Back then, it was an average morning to hear 12-15 different birds gobbling. I've heard 3, while hunting, all season. And this is in the same country that used to be loaded with turkeys.

 

[spur necklace 3]

My $.02. Most deer hunters bait with corn these days. If you don't your neighbors are. Two things come of this. Turkeys become patternable going to corn piles and get ambushed by predators.

Second, availability of corn makes for fat raccoons. Nature provides for greater reproduction when conditions are good so those fat raccoons breed more. Hardly any fur trappers so the raccoons, all 12 under your feeder in fall need to feed in the spring when feeding corn is illegal. No corn, more time for turkey nest raiding.

Is corn not just as illegal in the fall?

 

[HTROutdoors]

Sorry, but this one will be long. I know we discuss this a lot and I know, most know/think that it is a myriad of reasons for turkey population decline vs. just "the one thing". I think most have figured out that predator/nest predation, and habitat loss play into it, but the more I think about it the more I can't help but feel like we are a huge reason for it. Some of these threads where we are discussing the opening dates this season, whether the limit should be 2 or 3, etc. and some of the comments got me thinking about this a lot lately.

As many know I hunt a lot on the WMAs in my area. I have a small 32 acre tract that we own. There used to be turkeys on my land, but now they are gone. That is mainly due to key habitat loss. There is some hunting now where as when I first bought it I am pretty sure there was none, so maybe a little bit hunting, and predators are everywhere, but the loss of that cow farm to build a brewery dispersed them. However, on the WMAs in a lot of the areas not much has changed. Occasionally a new neighborhood pops up, but that generally means more safe areas and food for wildlife. When I started hunting turkeys in 2010 there were literally flocks of over 100 birds. In deer season it was not uncommon to see 20+ long beard bunched up. Jakes were all over, so that tells me hatches were surviving. Now that is no longer the case. These WMAs are heavily trafficked. There are predators there, but there are a bunch of hunters that are more than happy to have an excuse to pull the trigger, so they get hammered, like all animals. Nest raiders have always been prevalent there. Basically, I cannot see habitat loss and nest raiding predators/predators being the main cause. So while I have been hunting I am thinking, what has changed on these WMAs.

The answer is easy IMO. Our chokes, and shells have changed and the # of hunters has gone up significantly. When I started I was using the only shotgun I owned at the time, a Mossberg 500 capable of shooting 3" shells. My shells were Remington premier magnum #5 lead shot. I had an undertaker choke I got at Wally world for $10. 40 yds. was pushing my luck, and depending on my shooting in the moment 35 yds. may be pushing it. I could go anywhere I wanted most days and never see anyone. I know for a fact in my first two seasons I wounded 2 birds. They flew though so I assumed I had missed. Knowing what I know now, they probably died. Later I shot at a bird in a field on my property that I was certain was at 45 yds, using a different gun, choke and mag blends... he was 65 (I misjudged) and I probably wounded him. The more I think of those birds the more I think how many people have wounded birds and thought they lived, only to go kill another, so essentially they killed x # of birds, but only found Y # of birds, which is what is checked in? Then I start thinking about how many people really hunt turkeys in TN?

So, after all this discussion of the season and limit changes, the pros and the cons, I don't think we will be able to know what type of a difference we are making because we don't have the data form the past, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't start collecting it now for future reference and that data is how many people are actually hunting turkeys? I think we can add a "free" designation that you must have to hunt turkeys, kinda like a migratory bird stamp. Not one that you have to designate when you buy or you can't hunt, but one that can be added with the click of a button on the TWRA app at any time, if you decide to hunt turkeys. Exit surveys are great, but not everyone gets one or will fill it out, so the "stamp" will give us a truer estimate of turkey hunter #'s. With that data we can have a better idea of hunter success vs. total kills and that is a better gauge to base changes on. Simply saying, we killed 40K this year and we killed 35K the year before doesn't tell us anything, if we don't know how many people were out there shooting. If we kill 5k more, but there were 10K more hunters that is not better, that is worse, so knowing the # of hunters is key IMO.

Heard from a farmer that when they have been spreading a specific fertilizer it has been killing any chickens that were around. I believe he actually said it was chicken sh** fertilizer. Which brings me to the conclusion that it has to be a disease. Where they get this chicken sh** fertilizer, all of the birds have to have certain vaccines etc. So we are not talking about all natural here. We know they pump these chickens full of God knows what. But the natural immunity of regular birds that are in the same family/species/subspecies would be affected in some capacity. However I do believe it is a mixture of many causes but primarily disease and predidation.

 

[kaizen leader]

Sorry, but this one will be long. I know we discuss this a lot and I know, most know/think that it is a myriad of reasons for turkey population decline vs. just "the one thing". I think most have figured out that predator/nest predation, and habitat loss play into it, but the more I think about it the more I can't help but feel like we are a huge reason for it. Some of these threads where we are discussing the opening dates this season, whether the limit should be 2 or 3, etc. and some of the comments got me thinking about this a lot lately.

As many know I hunt a lot on the WMAs in my area. I have a small 32 acre tract that we own. There used to be turkeys on my land, but now they are gone. That is mainly due to key habitat loss. There is some hunting now where as when I first bought it I am pretty sure there was none, so maybe a little bit hunting, and predators are everywhere, but the loss of that cow farm to build a brewery dispersed them. However, on the WMAs in a lot of the areas not much has changed. Occasionally a new neighborhood pops up, but that generally means more safe areas and food for wildlife. When I started hunting turkeys in 2010 there were literally flocks of over 100 birds. In deer season it was not uncommon to see 20+ long beard bunched up. Jakes were all over, so that tells me hatches were surviving. Now that is no longer the case. These WMAs are heavily trafficked. There are predators there, but there are a bunch of hunters that are more than happy to have an excuse to pull the trigger, so they get hammered, like all animals. Nest raiders have always been prevalent there. Basically, I cannot see habitat loss and nest raiding predators/predators being the main cause. So while I have been hunting I am thinking, what has changed on these WMAs.

The answer is easy IMO. Our chokes, and shells have changed and the # of hunters has gone up significantly. When I started I was using the only shotgun I owned at the time, a Mossberg 500 capable of shooting 3" shells. My shells were Remington premier magnum #5 lead shot. I had an undertaker choke I got at Wally world for $10. 40 yds. was pushing my luck, and depending on my shooting in the moment 35 yds. may be pushing it. I could go anywhere I wanted most days and never see anyone. I know for a fact in my first two seasons I wounded 2 birds. They flew though so I assumed I had missed. Knowing what I know now, they probably died. Later I shot at a bird in a field on my property that I was certain was at 45 yds, using a different gun, choke and mag blends... he was 65 (I misjudged) and I probably wounded him. The more I think of those birds the more I think how many people have wounded birds and thought they lived, only to go kill another, so essentially they killed x # of birds, but only found Y # of birds, which is what is checked in? Then I start thinking about how many people really hunt turkeys in TN?

So, after all this discussion of the season and limit changes, the pros and the cons, I don't think we will be able to know what type of a difference we are making because we don't have the data form the past, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't start collecting it now for future reference and that data is how many people are actually hunting turkeys? I think we can add a "free" designation that you must have to hunt turkeys, kinda like a migratory bird stamp. Not one that you have to designate when you buy or you can't hunt, but one that can be added with the click of a button on the TWRA app at any time, if you decide to hunt turkeys. Exit surveys are great, but not everyone gets one or will fill it out, so the "stamp" will give us a truer estimate of turkey hunter #'s. With that data we can have a better idea of hunter success vs. total kills and that is a better gauge to base changes on. Simply saying, we killed 40K this year and we killed 35K the year before doesn't tell us anything, if we don't know how many people were out there shooting. If we kill 5k more, but there were 10K more hunters that is not better, that is worse, so knowing the # of hunters is key IMO.

Real data is hard to get but your stamp idea would help. Good thoughts. Think TWRA will see it and consider it? Slim chance. I've only been hunting turkeys for about 5 years. I have noticed a lot of predictors. Dillon ate on the increase in Mid Tn as are yotes. It would be nice to bounty yotes and dill is. That might help.

 

[Bone Collector]

I proposed a $5 turkey stamp. 100% proceeds go to land access.
It fell on death ears.

that is why I suggested it be free. I just feel like any charge whatsoever, will be met with resistance.

 

[Bone Collector]

Real data is hard to get but your stamp idea would help. Good thoughts. Think TWRA will see it and consider it? Slim chance. I've only been hunting turkeys for about 5 years. I have noticed a lot of predictors. Dillon ate on the increase in Mid Tn as are yotes. It would be nice to bounty yotes and dill is. That might help.

well ironically, they may, but it will take time it seems. Most on here and other sites had been suggesting a limit drop, 2 week later season start, and other measures that seem to fall on deaf ears, but all of the sudden they are reality, so who knows. Seems like an easy add.

 

[GreeneGriz]

I read a reply that said we've always had nest-raiders and predators and they can't be the problem. I couldn't disagree more strongly. As someone who has coonhunted and coyote hunted hard since the 1990's, there are more predators now than ever. Poult hatch rates are the lowest they've ever been. Of course weather has some effect on that, but the increase in nestraiding animals because of little hunting pressure is directly affecting the Hatch rate and surviving poults.
When you see a hen wirh 20+ poults, and 2 weeks later there are 2-3 survivors, what else can you blame?
The farms where we've decimated nest raiders and predators, we've seen the turkey population explode.