Turkey Population Decline - The data I think we need

[AT Hiker]

^^^#bringbackddt^^^

 

[Setterman]

I agree with you, at least in that the nest raiding predation is little different than it was decades ago (across most of TN). I have thousands of acres where the racoon population has steadily declined in large part due to habitat becoming more ideal for bobwhite quail (and most of the hardwoods larger than 12" being cut).

These habitat changes were "supposed" to greatly enhance turkey nesting success as well.

Also, the coyote population is resilient, but less than it was in the past (when we had 10 times more turkeys).

In the areas I'm looking at, turkey nesting success actually appears pretty good. It's the young poult survival that has dramatically decreased over the past couple decades.

So what else has dramatically changed over the past couple decades?

The only thing I can finger is a dramatic increase in raptors, and their rapid evolution to more specifically "hunt" for turkey poults (most specifically during the 1st 3 months after hatching).

Initially, it seems to be the Cooper's hawks slaughtering the young poults, along with all the owls.

If you want to count "all" turkeys (regardless of age), I suspect the Cooper's hawks kill more turkeys than all other predators combined (in TN). They slaughter them when their young.

As the poults become older, it may then be more the larger hawks & owls that finish off most the survivors of the Cooper's hawks. Sure, coyotes, dogs, housecats, bobcats also get a few.

But by fall, the typical hen that may have successfully hatched a dozen baby turkeys now has only a couple which have survived. One of those is at high risk of being caught by a bobcat or coyote. Then come Spring, the bald eagles, bobcats, and coyotes will focus more on adult strutting Tom turkeys.

Just saying, in many areas, the problem is not nesting success, and it sure ain't chicken chit, nor is it a lack of good habitat, nor is it over-hunting. But it does appear to be heavier, more targeted predation by raptors.

You may have a point on the raptors. I was noticing yesterday a ton of hawks screaming where I was hunting. However, not sure it's a predator issue

 

[Setterman]

As to the quail going near extinction, I believe the #1 cause of this WAS the introduction of fescue grass. But the #1 reason they will never again thrive (even with vast great quail habitat) is raptor predation.

Fescue equals death to quail, but may be of little consequence to turkeys.

Yep, and less edge cover as farmers became more efficient in harvesting and planting border to border

What's fascinating is on our Georgia property our quail population has exploded in the last few years. We went from zero birds to a bunch of covies. We clear cut all the Loblolly pines replanted Long leaf and are on a good burn rotation. The quail have responded amazingly well.

 

[TheLBLman]

You may have a point on the raptors. I was noticing yesterday a ton of hawks screaming where I was hunting. However, not sure it's a predator issue

Most significant factors may vary greatly from one area to another.

Yep, and less edge cover as farmers became more efficient in harvesting and planting border to border.

Talking more about quail now, but some vast areas I'm referring to are non-agricultural areas. They had lots of quail decades ago, essentially none now, despite significant habitat improvements for quail.

What's fascinating is on our Georgia property our quail population has exploded in the last few years. We went from zero birds to a bunch of covies. We clear cut all the Loblolly pines replanted Long leaf and are on a good burn rotation. The quail have responded amazingly well.

That is truly amazing.
There must be something about Georgia making it easier for quail to thrive than similar habitat in TN.

 

[Bone Collector]

This makes sense to me. We used to allow some friends to Coon hunt our place for years. We had good turkey numbers. They quit hunting and the Turkey population declined drastically. We started trapping and now we seem to have a very healthy population since the drop off in numbers around 2015. Now, how many coons did they kill when they hunted? I have no clue and if it were to make a difference anyway? But I do know we have trapped and killed 133 nest raiders in 2022 and 2023 thus far. Was the timing of these events we experienced a coincidence? Who knows??? But I have to think it's a major factor into the overall equation of Turkey population loss.

the sad thing is, is on my small tract of land, there are coyotes, bobcats, fox, racoons and possums. there are armadillos too and skunks, but most do not want to mess with those I have tried to find people that like predator hunting and coon hunting. I try to trap and always manage to kill 3-5 possums and 2-4 coons, but I am not really into predator hunting and I dang sure cannot trap them.
I live in middle TN where you would think people would be looking for places to hunt... I can't really find anyone. I would be open to letting them do the trapping and predator hunting between January (after deer) through early April (before Turkey). Assuming I get more turkeys I may want to hunt them there. Most likely as this would take time I would let them continue through June (if they are ok with the heat). I just want it to quiet down a couple of months before deer season.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

the sad thing is, is on my small tract of land, there are coyotes, bobcats, fox, racoons and possums. there are armadillos too and skunks, but most do not want to mess with those I have tried to find people that like predator hunting and coon hunting. I try to trap and always manage to kill 3-5 possums and 2-4 coons, but I am not really into predator hunting and I dang sure cannot trap them.
I live in middle TN where you would think people would be looking for places to hunt... I can't really find anyone. I would be open to letting them do the trapping and predator hunting between January (after deer) through early April (before Turkey). Assuming I get more turkeys I may want to hunt them there. Most likely as this would take time I would let them continue through June (if they are ok with the heat). I just want it to quiet down a couple of months before deer season.

Trapping nest predators with a dog proof is quite easy. Not sure if you've tried that yet or not. Coyote and bobcat trapping is a totally story. Never caught one of them. Armadillos are just keeping my shooting on point throughout the year - about 40 a year

 

[Bone Collector]

Trapping nest predators with a dog proof is quite easy. Not sure if you've tried that yet or not. Coyote and bobcat trapping is a totally story. Never caught one of them. Armadillos are just keeping my shooting on point throughout the year - about 40 a year

Oh yeah I trap coons and possums with dog proofs, but cannot trap coyotes, bobcats and foxes...

 

[GreeneGriz]

For those who say nest raiders aren't the problem…. Maybe it's time to pull the blinders off your eyes….. (read below) **I did not save and post trail cam and other pics with the data they've collected. ***
"
Well we are 2 weeks into phase one, of the Turkey nest depredation study. This check is basically 1/2 of the time that it takes Turkey eggs to hatch. Here is the score so far.

Property one (trapped last season) Timber/CRP/Ag fields
Week one: 1 nest destroyed (Raccoon)
Week two: 1 nest destroyed (camera failure/unknown predator)
25% of nests destroyed to date

Property two (No crop fields all timber and CRP/not trapped)
Week one: 2 nests destroyed (by Raccoons)
Week two: 2 nests destroyed (by Raccoon)
50% of nests destroyed to date

Property three (Timber bordered by ag fields tilled and or planted/not trapped)
Week one: 2 nests destroyed by (Raccoon) 1 destroyed by Opossum
Week two: 3 nests destroyed (Coyote 1) (Opossum 1) (Raccoon 1)
63% of nests destroyed to date

11 out of 24 nests have been destroyed in 14 nights, that is 46%. The concern I have is that there is no smell of the turkey hen at any of these sites to draw predators. It is reasonable that just the smell or sight of the eggs, is not drawing predators as readily as hen incubated eggs. Now other nests may have lost an egg or two. I do not get close to the "nest" and pull the camera card unless I see significant "nest" alteration.

The opossum in the pictures did not get credit for the "nest" destruction. The coyote was there an hour before and did the eggs in. The opossum was just getting the scraps. You know the old saying "the early predator gets the omelets""