Sometimes you need to talk to the neighbors......

[bowtechgump]

Let me say upfront that I have not always been able to overcome this situation, but sometimes you have to try. I am tired of hearing people saying that "if they don't kill it, the neighbor will". Did anyone talk to the neighbors? I had a great fishing buddy, who was once a pro-BASS tournament fisherman. Sadly, he passed away from COVID in 2020, but he quit tournament fishing in 2013. He and I started crappie fishing together in 2015 and he...at first kept every 10" crappie......I told him you can't catch a 12" if you keep the 10's. He said what do you mean.....I said that every single individual on this lake knows this boat.....you have everyone come up to talk to you about bass fishing.....asking for you to get back to the tournament fishing. They asked him because if they won one tournament against him, they had bragging rights.....it's honestly a great experience to have people stare at you and call you a great hunter or fisherman. Remember just 30 years ago (sounds like a long time) the buck limit was 7!

 

[bowtechgump]

I guess that my point is, somewhere between my youth and today we lost the reason for getting up at 4AM. Remember when it was important to supply the food to your family? Now it is honestly just what are willing to spend and do for that "big" buck.

 

[kaizen leader]

I for one enjoy getting up early and go hunting and fishing. If I don't I'm letting old get me.

 

[bowtechgump]

I for one enjoy getting up early and go hunting and fishing. If I don't I'm letting old get me.

Remember when it was a moment? The night before? The conversation about last years missed opportunity? Today its become another sales ad or your deer isn't big......I killed a buck in 1992 that the landowner told me.....you know 10 years ago there weren't deer on this place. He told me about how he grew up without having deer in the entire area.....

 

[Boone25/06]

I think I follow where your trying to go with the post but it's kinda all over the place. I agree hunting has changed but in the post it contradicts it's self. What happened to people wanting to go fishing and keep every legal fish to eat instead of the big fish to talk about. What is wrong with the neighbor getting up to hunt and shoot whatever they are happy with instead of only shooting what the neighbors consider a shooter?

 

[rem270]

I've never been a "if I don't kill it the neighbors will" type of person. I'm a "if I kill it then it's for sure dead no matter what my neighbors do".

Some neighbors are good, some are bad. The worst kind of neighbor is a nosey neighbor. I have one of those a half mile north of me. He wants to know what's going on and who's shooting what, all the while trespassing and poaching everywhere. Just last week he wanted to know why the kid was hunting across the road from me so much. Maybe because it's his family property and he likes to hunt.

I don't share info with neighbors and couldn't careless if they share anything with me. I share info with close friends and that's it.

 

[Bushape]

I think I get where you're going with this and IMO the root of a lot of issues in society stems from people needing justification, acceptance, and approval from thousands of "friends." I see it all of the time on some farming groups that I have joined where somebody spends $100k on a piece of machinery then runs to the board seeking "the good and the bad" about the machine. Well, A.) you've already bought it so what does it matter what folks say, and B.) who gives a sh!& what a bunch of strangers think about your method of providing for your family? Keep in mind this isn't 18 yo kids who grew up with cell phones, these are 40-50 yo men with hydraulic fluid in their hair and dirt under their nails that now need everybody to approve of their methods. I catch myself at times being a snob when I see somebody's proud picture of a 47 inch 6 point but that person was probably quaking in their boots when they let that bullet fly. Too much of society, across all races and genders, fixate too much on bringing each other down rather than lifting everybody up and that has had a negative affect on everything, even hunting.

Sorry if this has nothing to do with OP.

 

[megalomaniac]

I guess that my point is, somewhere between my youth and today we lost the reason for getting up at 4AM. Remember when it was important to supply the food to your family? Now it is honestly just what are willing to spend and do for that "big" buck.

Well, times have changed. Noone any longer needs wild game to feed their families. If you are that poor, my tax dollars are now feeding you. Sure, wild game and fish are a great supplement, and my family enjoys both, but there are very few folks in today's society who rely of what they kill to survive....

Since times have changed, and we no longer need to exploit the natural resources to survive, what we choose to keep or kill is more about the overall health of the populations we enjoy hunting or fishing for.

Releasing 10in crappie to grow and spawn to produce more crappie for next year is more important than a FB pic of a cooler full of 10 in crappie. But sometimes its necessary to keep a cooler full of 8 in crappie every trip in an overpopulated pond to reduce the population so the remaining crappie can be healthier to successfully spawn future generations.

Same thing applies to wild game management. 90% of folks choose to kill or don't kill based on personal choices, with no regards for whether what they choose to kill or not kill benefits the health of the herd/flock for future generations.

If everyone was altruistic and made harvest decisions on what's best for the herd, there would be no need for any game laws.

But since the VAST majority of folks don't hunt/ fish that way, game agencies have to set seasons/ limits to minimize the damage we humans will inevitably inflict on the game we say we love.

Look at Louisiana speckled trout limits... been 25 fish 12in and up for a couple decades, all while the spawning stock has dropped 300%. Limits reduced to 15 fish 13in and up 3 weeks ago and the locals act like you cut off their left nut.

bottom line... every fish you keep or every animal you kill will have positive or negative effects in your local area. Treat every harvest with respect and do so with the intentions you are leaving your area better off than if you had never hunted or fished there.

 

[Ski]

Well, times have changed. Noone any longer needs wild game to feed their families. If you are that poor, my tax dollars are now feeding you. Sure, wild game and fish are a great supplement, and my family enjoys both, but there are very few folks in today's society who rely of what they kill to survive....

Since times have changed, and we no longer need to exploit the natural resources to survive, what we choose to keep or kill is more about the overall health of the populations we enjoy hunting or fishing for.

Releasing 10in crappie to grow and spawn to produce more crappie for next year is more important than a FB pic of a cooler full of 10 in crappie. But sometimes its necessary to keep a cooler full of 8 in crappie every trip in an overpopulated pond to reduce the population so the remaining crappie can be healthier to successfully spawn future generations.

Same thing applies to wild game management. 90% of folks choose to kill or don't kill based on personal choices, with no regards for whether what they choose to kill or not kill benefits the health of the herd/flock for future generations.

If everyone was altruistic and made harvest decisions on what's best for the herd, there would be no need for any game laws.

But since the VAST majority of folks don't hunt/ fish that way, game agencies have to set seasons/ limits to minimize the damage we humans will inevitably inflict on the game we say we love.

Look at Louisiana speckled trout limits... been 25 fish 12in and up for a couple decades, all while the spawning stock has dropped 300%. Limits reduced to 15 fish 13in and up 3 weeks ago and the locals act like you cut off their left nut.

bottom line... every fish you keep or every animal you kill will have positive or negative effects in your local area. Treat every harvest with respect and do so with the intentions you are leaving your area better off than if you had never hunted or fished there.

Great post.

 

[BSK]

I guess that my point is, somewhere between my youth and today we lost the reason for getting up at 4AM. Remember when it was important to supply the food to your family? Now it is honestly just what are willing to spend and do for that "big" buck.

Personally, I never deer hunted or fished to supply food to my family. We love eating what we catch/kill, but that's not why I hunt/fish.

 

[knightrider]

Not everyones goals are the same. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Your neighbors dont have to hunt the way you want or see fit on THEIR side of the fence! Once people started naming deer and having"hitlist" is when the neighbor hating began ,because people starting thinking the bucks were "their deer" because they came across their property at times. Just be happy for everyone who is hunting ethically, legally, and are happy with what they kill.

 

[BSK]

Not everyones goals are the same. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Your neighbors dont have to hunt the way you want or see fit on THEIR side of the fence! Once people started naming deer and having"hitlist" is when the neighbor hating began ,because people starting thinking the bucks were "their deer" because they came across their property at times. Just be happy for everyone who is hunting ethically, legally, and are happy with what they kill.

Oh, it started much earlier than that! Back in the late 90s, when I was working for a group that did private land management all over the country, we got hired to help manage a big place in southern Central Florida. The club members would go on and on and on about how their neighbors were the major problem. The neighbors shot everything. Then by shear coincidence, we got hired to manage the neighbor's land as well. All the hunters on the neighboring property did was complain about how it was their neighbors who were the problem! Two adjoining properties - both being managed for older bucks - yet each absolutely believed the other was killing everything that walked.

 

[knightrider]

Oh, it started much earlier than that! Back in the late 90s, when I was working for a group that did private land management all over the country, we got hired to help manage a big place in southern Central Florida. The club members would go on and on and on about how their neighbors were the major problem. The neighbors shot everything. Then by shear coincidence, we got hired to manage the neighbor's land as well. All the hunters on the neighboring property did was complain about how it was their neighbors who were the problem! Two adjoining properties - both being managed for older bucks - yet each absolutely believed the other was killing everything that walked.

People have unreal expectations fir the most part and have to blame some one

 

[redblood]

Personally, I never deer hunted or fished to supply food to my family. We love eating what we catch/kill, but that's not why I hunt/fish.

its not why i hunt, but it may be why i fish......and i throw back lots of legal fish. But i doubt i would fish as much if i didnt love to eat them

 

[MUP]

Hunting is just part of what hunting was/is/ and will be for as long as I live. Getting outdoors to enjoy God's creation, and, to HUNT God's creation, for food. Sure I don't NEED the food, as I can buy what I need at the local store, but hunting, to me, is about supplementing my food supply with what God has provided, and allowed me to pursue and hunt. I love having deer meat in the freezer, and horns on the wall, but I still say I hunt for meat. My case in point is this years opening day buck kill. I was watching this buck come across the ridge, trying to figure out just what he was, when, in the back of my mind, I hear my wife's voice, saying "we don't have any deer meat in the freezer, so you need to shoot something". So, I buckled down and shot the first deer I saw, which was a nice buck. Having that meat in the freezer just gives me a good feeling thru the winter, moreover than the enjoyment of having the horns to remind me of the hunt, which is also a good feeling itself.

 

[Kelljp]

Back in 1999 timeframe, the 3 farms around my place decided to have an unofficial rule of 8 point or better and mandatory taken of a doe.
Within 3 years we were seeing some really nice bucks for East TN.
Then in 2019 two pieces of property that joined these farms changed hands and was leased out to hunters from out of town. The feeders and permanent tree stands went up. During covid there was always someone hunting it.The sighting of big bucks are no more. The only positive is we have seen better genetics in the bucks, fewer spikes and more symmetric racks. The idea of managing is noble, but unless your on thousands of acres it's only a pipe dream.

 

[BSK]

Back in 1999 timeframe, the 3 farms around my place decided to have an unofficial rule of 8 point or better and mandatory taken of a doe.
Within 3 years we were seeing some really nice bucks for East TN.
Then in 2019 two pieces of property that joined these farms changed hands and was leased out to hunters from out of town. The feeders and permanent tree stands went up. During covid there was always someone hunting it.The sighting of big bucks are no more. The only positive is we have seen better genetics in the bucks, fewer spikes and more symmetric racks. The idea of managing is noble, but unless your on thousands of acres it's only a pipe dream.

I couldn't disagree more. But the smaller the property, the more intense the habitat management has to be to hold deer during daylight, during hunting season. Where they are the rest of the time doesn't matter too much.

 

[Ski]

The idea of managing is noble, but unless your on thousands of acres it's only a pipe dream.

That could be true in certain circumstances, and neighbors certainly play a role. But it's not true across the board. I've got a 100acre property that I do quite well on in terms of seeing bucks grow into maturity.

On another 180acre farm I do a whole lot more but can't realize its potential almost singly because of neighbors. They're welcome and in the right to shoot anything they want on their places. I don't own the deer nor do I hold ill feelings toward the hunters. But it's a fact that having a quality hunt on that farm requires a whole lot more work than the other farm where pressure is minimal. Just part of it.

I've always approached it as something is better than nothing. Just like investing. Not every dollar in will be two dollars out. Sometimes we have to accept a lower return with hopes that it can incrementally grow.

 

[BSK]

I've always approached it as something is better than nothing. Just like investing. Not every dollar in will be two dollars out. Sometimes we have to accept a lower return with hopes that it can incrementally grow.

Well said Ski. Can you get the same results on 125 acres as on 2,000 acres? Of course not. But can you make vast improvements on that 125 acres? You bet. But it will take far more work than on the 2,000 acres.

 

[Ski]

But it will take far more work than on the 2,000 acres.

It will also take far more careful consideration how and when it gets hunted. While I do not believe hunters pressure deer so hard that they outright leave the area, I for sure believe the deer will adjust their habits to their environment, and if that means changing course by a couple hundred yards to steer clear of a very active stand then they will. And on a smaller property "only" a couple hundred yards could mean over the line into neighboring properties.

 

[LenS]

I hunt more than 125 acres, but nothing close to 2,000, and we have been able to greatly improve the quality of our hunting by doing some simple things. Now, our part of NW middle TN does have a lot of deer, so that helps.

1, we have serious cover. There is a 60 acre patch of that thick, nasty, western middle TN deep hollows that we simply don't go into. Now we do hunt some of the exits of that cover, but we just don't go in it. Some of it hasn't been walked in for over 2 years, and that was only to retrieve a deer. Sanctuary is important. I've killed many a nice buck that was coming out of the thick cover or was searching it looking for a doe.

2, we stopped shooting yearlings. 20 years ago we hammered the does pretty hard. Now, we are far more particular about that but we take several does off of the place if the herd can stand it. We then stopped shooting 2.5 year olds. I think that alone made the biggest of differences. Let a buck get passed 2.5 and who knows what will happen. And I will be the first to say that isn't for everybody. However, if you can stand to let a buck of two walk, who knows what might come from that.

3, we don't overhunt and we switch up stands regularly.

4, we talked to the neighbors and they by and large are abiding by the same practices as we are. One older couple want meat and usually end up killing a couple of yearling bucks. Good for them. They are happy, and are usually done hunting before the rut even starts. Most other neighbors are after bigger deer. It's crazy how this has changed. 20 years ago opening morning of rifle season sounding like a war. Now we will hear maybe 5-10 shots maximum for the week.

 

[TX300mag]

I've never undtood shooting a deer that you don't want to shoot just so your neighbors won't have a chance at shooting it.

 

[DeerCamp]

I guess that my point is, somewhere between my youth and today we lost the reason for getting up at 4AM. Remember when it was important to supply the food to your family? Now it is honestly just what are willing to spend and do for that "big" buck.

It's never been just about food. I'm looking at a set of hunting magazines right now on my desk from the 1950s, and there are not pictures of does on the cover.

 

[TX300mag]

Oh, it started much earlier than that! Back in the late 90s, when I was working for a group that did private land management all over the country, we got hired to help manage a big place in southern Central Florida. The club members would go on and on and on about how their neighbors were the major problem. The neighbors shot everything. Then by shear coincidence, we got hired to manage the neighbor's land as well. All the hunters on the neighboring property did was complain about how it was their neighbors who were the problem! Two adjoining properties - both being managed for older bucks - yet each absolutely believed the other was killing everything that walked.

This is actually the norm and not a unique situation.

There are WAY too many factors to take into consideration before you can say for certain your neighbor possibly hunting different than you is ruining things for you.

I'm

 

[Ski]

It's never been just about food. I'm looking at a set of hunting magazines right now on my desk from the 1950s, and there are not pictures of does on the cover.

Where I'm from there is an outcropped rock that is smooth over its entire surface about the size of a big trampoline. Carved into it is numerous ancient petroglyphs, several of which depict giant antlered deer and even what's been interpreted to be a shaman or chief wearing huge antlers on his head. Go anywhere in Europe and tour some old castles and you'll see antlers decorating the halls & walls. We humans have an affinity for antlers. The bigger the better. It's literally in our DNA. Just like folks say you can't cull genetics out of a deer herd, you can't shame the love of antlers out of my DNA.

 

[DeerCamp]

I hunt more than 125 acres, but nothing close to 2,000, and we have been able to greatly improve the quality of our hunting by doing some simple things. Now, our part of NW middle TN does have a lot of deer, so that helps.

1, we have serious cover. There is a 60 acre patch of that thick, nasty, western middle TN deep hollows that we simply don't go into. Now we do hunt some of the exits of that cover, but we just don't go in it. Some of it hasn't been walked in for over 2 years, and that was only to retrieve a deer. Sanctuary is important. I've killed many a nice buck that was coming out of the thick cover or was searching it looking for a doe.

2, we stopped shooting yearlings. 20 years ago we hammered the does pretty hard. Now, we are far more particular about that but we take several does off of the place if the herd can stand it. We then stopped shooting 2.5 year olds. I think that alone made the biggest of differences. Let a buck get passed 2.5 and who knows what will happen. And I will be the first to say that isn't for everybody. However, if you can stand to let a buck of two walk, who knows what might come from that.

3, we don't overhunt and we switch up stands regularly.

4, we talked to the neighbors and they by and large are abiding by the same practices as we are. One older couple want meat and usually end up killing a couple of yearling bucks. Good for them. They are happy, and are usually done hunting before the rut even starts. Most other neighbors are after bigger deer. It's crazy how this has changed. 20 years ago opening morning of rifle season sounding like a war. Now we will hear maybe 5-10 shots maximum for the week.

You are 100% right. Shooting 2.5 year old bucks is the single biggest factor in what your buck population looks like.

A LOT of bucks make it to 2.5, but many of them don't make it to 3.5. Once they get to 3.5, their behavior greatly reduces encounters with hunters.

For most folks, it is hard not to shoot 2.5 year olds when that's all you are seeing though.

 

[DeerCamp]

This is actually the norm and not a unique situation.

There are WAY too many factors to take into consideration before you can say for certain your neighbor possibly hunting different than you is ruining things for you.

I'm

I'm not a 1 buck limit guy. I'm probably a 2 buck limit guy, but also wouldn't go to meetings to argue against a 3 buck limit.

I think that the limits should be based on biology, harvest data, and the inability of one or a few people to significantly impact the hunting quality of the people that hunt around them.

While we might not want trophy minded people setting limits, I also know the "Can't eat the horns guy" that paradoxically passes a doe to shoot a yearling buck and posts pictures of it to facebook.

I know a bunch of people that shoot deer but don't eat venison. I know some people that shoot the first deer they see and are happy to have a full freezer.

In my view, bag limits should be set to accomodate most hunters wishes while preventing any particular group from delcaring victory.

 

[BSK]

You are 100% right. Shooting 2.5 year old bucks is the single biggest factor in what your buck population looks like.

A LOT of bucks make it to 2.5, but many of them don't make it to 3.5. Once they get to 3.5, their behavior greatly reduces encounters with hunters.

For most folks, it is hard not to shoot 2.5 year olds when that's all you are seeing though.

I completely agree. Personally, I no longer shoot 2 1/2 year-old bucks. But I have a bunch of family members that only get to hunt for a week each year. I have no problem with them shooting a 2 1/2. I'm not sure I could guarantee myself an above average 3 1/2 year-old buck in a week's time.

 

[DeerCamp]

Not everyones goals are the same. Why is that so hard for people to understand? Your neighbors dont have to hunt the way you want or see fit on THEIR side of the fence! Once people started naming deer and having"hitlist" is when the neighbor hating began ,because people starting thinking the bucks were "their deer" because they came across their property at times. Just be happy for everyone who is hunting ethically, legally, and are happy with what they kill.

The neighbor hating thing is interesting.

We have a neighbor who has historically shot a bunch of deer my wife and daughters have passed. He's 60+ years old and apparently never shoots does. I have solid reasons to believe he doesn't always check them, and from what I gather he gives the deer to other people to process. Considering he posts the kills on every social media platform in existence, I can reasonably assume his intentions.

While I don't think we ever consider these deer "our deer", it's hard knowing that the management practices around him are the primary reason he shoots as many deer as he does. It's hard not to think "if he would just stop shooting everything with antlers, he might actually kill something to show off since that's him MO". It's hard not to think we are wasting our time.

The truth is, here in unit CWD we have the ability to dramatically alter HIS hunting success.. There have been a few times where I've thought that if we just set up on the travel routes on our place that take the deer to him, and just start hammering them, maybe after a while of not seeing deer he will get tired of hunting here. I have permission to hunt both sides of him. I mean, we could light the place up and I'd have no problem finding good homes for the venison. And with 3 bucks tags a piece, that's 12 bucks for my house. We certainly see enough bucks over the course of a season to fill those 12 tags.

But we don't do that because it's self defeating and as @megalomaniac pointed out, doesn't leave it better than we found it.

Meanwhile, when my other neighbors who seem to have slightly different motivations kill a buck, I'm genuinely happy for them and get in on the celebration. In fact, i constantly share pictures of deer we are seeing in hopes they are fortunate enough to cross paths with them.

Perhaps it's because they are considerate, friendly and there's a feeling that we are in together, even if we have slightly different management practices.

 

[BSK]

I'm not a 1 buck limit guy. I'm probably a 2 buck limit guy, but also wouldn't go to meetings to argue against a 3 buck limit.

I think that the limits should be based on biology, harvest data, and the inability of one or a few people to significantly impact the hunting quality of the people that hunt around them.

I believe I was one of the first people in TN pushing the idea of passing up young bucks to produce more older bucks. I've stuck with that ever since. However, looking at long-term population censuses versus harvest data, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't as important what age bucks are killed, it just matters how many total bucks are taken out of the population (percent of the buck population removed). You can advance buck age structure just as quickly by limiting total harvest as you can simply manage the age of harvested bucks.