? on taking does

[jakeway]

I remember when TN went to the 3 does per day limit...BSK said that the does would soon be scarcer and harder to kill than bucks, not necessarily because there would be fewer of them, but because mature does are darn smart and are good teachers! Once they realized they are being hunted hard, they will change their behavior.

Sure enough, that's what's happened on our property. We used to see groups of 4 to 6 does and fawns regularly. This year I saw deer almost every single hunt, yet most were young bucks. The only doe I got a decent shot on after archery season was one doe in ML season. Yet I killed two nice 3.5+ bucks and passed on more young bucks than I can remember. So far we've seen none of the classic signs of over-browsing and all the deer we've taken have been fat and healthy (until they met up with us that is).

 

[TDW05]

I remember going with one of my uncles to shelbyville or wherever out that way and just being in aw. 30 minutes after legal light had already seen 4-6 does, a 4 point posture up to a spike( first and only time seeing that in person), and missed the biggest buck I've seen still to this day. Mainframe 10 hitting a licking branch and scrape. It's a different experience then the east side.

 

[EastTNHunter]

Hmm... this whole thread is very insightful and interesting. I am only hunting public land in middle TN and I try to bounce around to as many pieces as possible, but it would still be helpful to know which properties could handle taking some extra does and which ones I probably shouldn't. Not sure exactly how to do that other than run cameras all year. @BSK any other suggestions for polling these public pieces?

I'm like you in that I balance my harvest over numerous parcels of public land spread out over several miles

 

[philsanchez76]

I hunt managed land in Humphreys County, one of the better counties in the region. If I saw 10+ per sit I would be seriously concerned! In a good year, we see at least one deer on only 40-50% of our hunts. An antlered buck on about 25% of our hunts.

The good buck I killed MZ this year was the first deer I had seen in 7 hunts.

So just to be clear, you are saying that the above example of seeing a deer or so every other sit in humpherys is a well balanced population? Meaning, that's what you want to see for a healthy deer heard?

Cuz there are definitely properties that I hunt where that sounds about right and then there are other properties that I see 4-6 deer per sit.

 

[BSK]

So just to be clear, you are saying that the above example of seeing a deer or so every other sit in humpherys is a well balanced population? Meaning, that's what you want to see for a healthy deer heard?

Cuz there are definitely properties that I hunt where that sounds about right and then there are other properties that I see 4-6 deer per sit.

Much depends on the habitat and terrain. Where I hunt is very steep ridge-and-hollow hardwoods, which greatly limits visual distances. In addition, we've done so much timber thinning and TSI work that most of our habitat is either thick young saplings or timber with a great deal of undergrowth, due to a lot of sunlight getting in under the canopy. So our visual distances are quite short. In fact, our average rifle/MZ shot is only 35 yards, about bow range, and mainly because we rarely have stands set up where we can see a lot farther.

Now if someone was hunting flat open ag land, that would be a different story. Seeing a lot of deer in and around open fields is not abnormal.

Although I will also say we intentionally keep deer density low on our managed land, to keep animal quality high. Unless you have virtually unlimited high-quality food sources available (which few properties do), deer quality and deer density are always going to be inversely related.

 

[Mescalero]

For those who are interested in learning to identify important browse plants, years ago a book was published titled, Forest Plants of the Southeast and Their Wildlife Uses [authors Miller and Miller]. This book is one of my favorite resources. Great pictures and descriptions of each plant as well as it's importance to a variety of wildlife species, but the book is primarily focused on deer. Have no idea if the book is still in publication, but if you can find a copy, buy it!

Thanks BSK! I just checked Amazon and the book is there. I'm going to order it. After hunting private land for a number of years, this year I had to hunt a WMA and that will probably continue next season and possibly beyond given my circumstances. I know oaks, browse grass and honeysuckle, but the challenge for me on this EMA is where and what is the food?

 

[philsanchez76]

deer quality and deer density are always going to be inversely related.

got it. this makes a lot of sense.

 

[fairchaser]

Where have all our does gone? We've killed about 90 does and 40 bucks on 18000 acres. That's less than 1 deer per 100 acres. Yet, you can't see a doe. Many of our members haven't even killed a doe and they have every incentive since it's "earn a buck" this year. There is virtually an unlimited supply of food because of all the food planted for quail and other wildlife. Even our cameras aren't picking up that many does. The doe harvest has been going down for several years too. For at least the last 3 years, we haven't killed 1 per hundred acres. Is this all due to CWD or is there another explanation?

 

[DeerCamp]

Where have all our does gone? We've killed about 90 does and 40 bucks on 18000 acres. That's less than 1 deer per 100 acres. Yet, you can't see a doe. Many of our members haven't even killed a doe and they have every incentive since it's "earn a buck" this year. There is virtually an unlimited supply of food because of all the food planted for quail and other wildlife. Even our cameras aren't picking up that many does. The doe harvest has been going down for several years too. For at least the last 3 years, we haven't killed 1 per hundred acres. Is this all due to CWD or is there another explanation?

With that many acres to hunt (wow) do you think it's possible the deer have learned the hunters patterns?

Dan Enfalt talks about, even on just a few hundred acres, breaking the property down into 40 acre sections and hunting each section. Deer are incredibly good at finding places where humans aren't and then staying in those places during daylight.

 

[fairchaser]

With that many acres to hunt (wow) do you think it's possible the deer have learned the hunters patterns?

Dan Enfalt talks about, even on just a few hundred acres, breaking the property down into 40 acre sections and hunting each section. Deer are incredibly good at finding places where humans aren't and then staying in those places during daylight.

Some of this is true. There are lots of clear cuts and immature pine thickets as well as grass fields where deer can hide. The added pressure they feel from hunters and bucks chasing them sends them to these areas for sure. At the same time, hunters are hunting many of these areas and there are hundreds of cameras out. The anecdotal evidence is there are fewer does and deer in general. I've personally hunted about 20 different spots and only seen does in 3. One of those was one sighting and one was two. The other one several does.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

With that many acres to hunt (wow) do you think it's possible the deer have learned the hunters patterns?

Dan Enfalt talks about, even on just a few hundred acres, breaking the property down into 40 acre sections and hunting each section. Deer are incredibly good at finding places where humans aren't and then staying in those places during daylight.

Just my .02.....I agree with fairchaser that a lot of of this is true (deer patterning hunters) - this happens everywhere. But for the deer patterning hunters on 18k acres, to some extent - absolutely, but highly unlikely throughout that vast landscape. Is the sole reasoning that CWD is the verdict? That is the million dollar question. They may have had some of the bad EHD outbreak we had in 2019. Has there been extensive studies differentiating dead deer in the CWD zone - CWD vs. EHD? Maybe, but I highly doubt it.

 

[BSK]

Where have all our does gone? We've killed about 90 does and 40 bucks on 18000 acres. That's less than 1 deer per 100 acres. Yet, you can't see a doe. Many of our members haven't even killed a doe and they have every incentive since it's "earn a buck" this year. There is virtually an unlimited supply of food because of all the food planted for quail and other wildlife. Even our cameras aren't picking up that many does. The doe harvest has been going down for several years too. For at least the last 3 years, we haven't killed 1 per hundred acres. Is this all due to CWD or is there another explanation?

As others have pointed out, putting a lot of harvest pressure on does quickly drives them nocturnal. I swear does are smarter than bucks, and respond faster and more efficiently to harvest pressure than bucks do.

That said, you have hundreds of cameras out and you're not getting many does on camera. To me, that suggests does aren't there. So does either left the property (extremely unlikely on a property that large) or they no longer exist in the numbers they used to. I would need to know a lot more about census data from the property as well as harvest numbers over time to make an educated assessment the population dynamics. However, I will make a comment concerning doe harvests that not only applies to your situation but to everyone, and that is watch your fawn recruitment numbers closely. So much of doe harvest policies and strategies promoted by myself and others were based on how deer herds had always operated in the past, with very high fawn production/recruitment that could easily replace harvested adults. It used to be common for local deer populations to have fawn recruitment rates of 100 to 120% (10 to 12 surviving fawns per 10 adult does). In that situation, you can literally shoot 1/3 of the entire adult population year after year and have those harvests completely replaced by the huge fawn crops joining the adult population on their first birthdays.

Yet things have changed in the Southeast and no one really knows why. Across the region fawn recruitment rates have been falling, and in many areas quite dramatically. Now fawn recruitment rates of only 30-40% are being reported all across the region. That's basically what I'm seeing on the properties I census in western Middle TN. Many blame coyotes for the major decline. I agree coyotes are having an impact, but honestly we had very high coyote populations back when recruitment rates used to run 100-120%. I personally believe other factors are exacerbating the coyote predation problem, although I'm clueless as to what those other factors are. But whatever they are, they are regionwide.

No matter the cause, low fawn recruitment has MAJOR implications for harvest strategies. Mathematically speaking, you cannot shoot more adult deer than fawns produced each year without the population declining. As an oversimplified example, imagine a given area has 100 adult does with a 100% fawn recruitment, meaning those 100 does produce 100 surviving fawns. That means close to 100 adult deer can be removed from that population and they will all be replaced by those 100 fawns joining the adult population the following year. But what if fawn recruitment drops to only 50%? Now those 100 adult does are producing only 50 fawns, hence only 50 adult deer can be harvested without the adult population being lower the following year. And what happens when the adult doe population has been reduced through hunter harvest or other forms of mortality, such as CWD/EHD? Let's say the adult doe population drops to 60. Those 60 adult does with a 50% fawn recruitment only produce 30 surviving fawns, which means hunters can only take 30 adult deer without the population declining. So we've gone from being able to kill 100 adult deer to only 30. See how low fawn recruitment can cause a domino effect over time?

Again, I don't know your property's situation or data. But low fawn recruitment, in combination with high mortality rates from hunter harvest, predation and disease can be a real problem. It can really change the dynamics of how the deer population has to be managed.

 

[fairchaser]

As others have pointed out, putting a lot of harvest pressure on does quickly drives them nocturnal. I swear does are smarter than bucks, and respond faster and more efficiently to harvest pressure than bucks do.

That said, you have hundreds of cameras out and you're not getting many does on camera. To me, that suggests does aren't there. So does either left the property (extremely unlikely on a property that large) or they no longer exist in the numbers they used to. I would need to know a lot more about census data from the property as well as harvest numbers over time to make an educated assessment the population dynamics. However, I will make a comment concerning doe harvests that not only applies to your situation but to everyone, and that is watch your fawn recruitment numbers closely. So much of doe harvest policies and strategies promoted by myself and others were based on how deer herds had always operated in the past, with very high fawn production/recruitment that could easily replace harvested adults. It used to be common for local deer populations to have fawn recruitment rates of 100 to 120% (10 to 12 surviving fawns per 10 adult does). In that situation, you can literally shoot 1/3 of the entire adult population year after year and have those harvests completely replaced by the huge fawn crops joining the adult population on their first birthdays.

Yet things have changed in the Southeast and no one really knows why. Across the region fawn recruitment rates have been falling, and in many areas quite dramatically. Now fawn recruitment rates of only 30-40% are being reported all across the region. That's basically what I'm seeing on the properties I census in western Middle TN. Many blame coyotes for the major decline. I agree coyotes are having an impact, but honestly we had very high coyote populations back when recruitment rates used to run 100-120%. I personally believe other factors are exacerbating the coyote predation problem, although I'm clueless as to what those other factors are. But whatever they are, they are regionwide.

No matter the cause, low fawn recruitment has MAJOR implications for harvest strategies. Mathematically speaking, you cannot shoot more adult deer than fawns produced each year without the population declining. As an oversimplified example, imagine a given area has 100 adult does with a 100% fawn recruitment, meaning those 100 does produce 100 surviving fawns. That means close to 100 adult deer can be removed from that population and they will all be replaced by those 100 fawns joining the adult population the following year. But what if fawn recruitment drops to only 50%? Now those 100 adult does are producing only 50 fawns, hence only 50 adult deer can be harvested without the adult population being lower the following year. And what happens when the adult doe population has been reduced through hunter harvest or other forms of mortality, such as CWD/EHD? Let's say the adult doe population drops to 60. Those 60 adult does with a 50% fawn recruitment only produce 30 surviving fawns, which means hunters can only take 30 adult deer without the population declining. So we've gone from being able to kill 100 adult deer to only 30. See how low fawn recruitment can cause a domino effect over time?

Again, I don't know your property's situation or data. But low fawn recruitment, in combination with high mortality rates from hunter harvest, predation and disease can be a real problem. It can really change the dynamics of how the deer population has to be managed.

Our fawn recruitment is down considerably. Even management acknowledges this fact for reasons not fully known. There are lots of coyotes but we are being told it makes no difference to shoot them. They are controlled by the food supply. The domino effect seems to be in play here. We are drastically trying to reduce the herd size and stamp out as much CWD as possible. No doe is safe and any buck with a decent rack is also at risk. Thanks for your input. It's appreciated.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

We are drastically trying to reduce the herd size and stamp out as much CWD as possible.

How do the management folks plan on stamping out CWD by reducing herd size? I assume you are talking about "slowing the spread"?

 

[fairchaser]

How do the management folks plan on stamping out CWD by reducing herd size? I assume you are talking about "slowing the spread"?

Yes, that's definitely part of it. I believe the idea is to reduce the herd and allow animals from outside the area, with lower rates of infection to fill in and replace animals with higher infection. Also, since CWD is spread from deer to deer mostly, it's density sensitive. Fewer deer results in less virus spread. They will never stamp it out. That's clear, it's here to stay. But, it might be possible to reduce the spread and reduce the infection rate. All this is theory and may not work. But, management feels like they have to try and keep CWD at bay until a better solution comes along.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Yes, that's definitely part of it. I believe the idea is to reduce the herd and allow animals from outside the area, with lower rates of infection to fill in and replace animals with higher infection. Also, since CWD is spread from deer to deer mostly, it's density sensitive. Fewer deer results in less virus spread. They will never stamp it out. That's clear, it's here to stay. But, it might be possible to reduce the spread and reduce the infection rate. All this is theory and may not work. But, management feels like they have to try and keep CWD at bay until a better solution comes along.

Airplane crop-spraying with bleach? Kidding

It is still hard for me to fathom that fire does not kill it. I am hoping the river systems also help slow the spread.

 

[jag1]

There are lots of coyotes but we are being told it makes no difference to shoot them.

Once when I was a park ranger in Southern Cal many years ago, I bought a book called God's Dog I believe it was. We had tons of coyotes out there, far more than what we had back home. The take away that I got from that book was our govtmt had spent many dollars on trapping, shooting, poisoning coyotes for years and the population only grew. Somehow they increased their reproductive output in the face of persecution. As you said, the prey population will largely regulate their numbers.

 

[BSK]

Our fawn recruitment is down considerably. Even management acknowledges this fact for reasons not fully known.

Tell them to "join the club." No one can really figure out why fawn recruitment is so low all over the Southeast. Coyotes are playing a role, but they've been around far longer than the low reproductive success.

 

[BSK]

Once when I was a park ranger in Southern Cal many years ago, I bought a book called God's Dog I believe it was. We had tons of coyotes out there, far more than what we had back home. The take away that I got from that book was our govtmt had spent many dollars on trapping, shooting, poisoning coyotes for years and the population only grew. Somehow they increased their reproductive output in the face of persecution. As you said, the prey population will largely regulate their numbers.

There's an article on the QDMA's website that details probably the best large-scale coyote study ever conducted. If I can find the link, I'll post it. But what they found was that trying to kill them out will never work, for reasons detailed in the study concerning their movement patterns. In addition, coyotes do kill a lot of fawns during the fawning season, but what is more disturbing is that they kill a lot of adult deer all year-round too. The one "answer" they found was that because coyotes are primarily "eyesight" hunters, providing a lot of thick cover, especially tall-grass cover, reduces how much of a local coyote population's diet is deer. Basically, giving deer lots of extremely low-visibility cover to hide in reduces how many of them fall prey to coyotes. They also suggested making sure managers plan for thick cover directly adjacent to open feeding areas like food plots. Giving deer quick escape cover in the locations where they are most frequently hunted by coyotes is key.

I have to admit, now that I've switched most of my trail-cameras to video mode, I'm SHOCKED at how often I got video of coyotes chasing deer in food plots. It happens frequently.

Years ago, I did an analysis of hunter observation rates for hunters hunting over food plots. I compared total deer and older buck observations for food plots that had cover directly adjacent versus plots surrounded big open hardwoods. I found total deer sighting were higher when cover was directly adjacent, and older buck sightings MUCH higher for plots with cover adjacent. Now I guess I know why - defense against coyotes.

 

[BSK]

Just ordered this book on amazon. I am gonna carry it in my pack during my post season scouting this year. Thanks to y'all I might just become a woodsman yet!

As an example of some of the things I look for when assessing a property in late winter, I tend to seek out specific "indicator" plants - plants that I know deer preference for and have seen in all levels of deer usage. Two of my favorite indicator plants are Japanese honeysuckle - the vine, not the bush (Lonicera japonica), and Greenbrier (Smilax). Japanese honeysuckle is highly preferred by deer in winter. It is one of the first plants to show excessive browse pressure. So in late winter I look to see how heavily browsed this plant is in the area. The only problem with Japanese Honeysuckle it that deer have browsed it out of existence in some parts of TN! So a lack of honeysuckle is usually an indicator deer densities were too high in that area in the past. Because it is lower on the deer preference list than honeysuckle, Greenbrier is far more ubiquitous in TN. Looking at how intensely greenbrier has been browsed in late winter tells you how much deer were relying on "moderate" quality foods during the winter. What I'm looking for on the greenbrier is how much of the feathery branches have been browsed away. Seeing some of these thin outer branches bitten off is normal. But seeing most of the greenbrier eaten back to the main stalk, or even worse only main stalks bitten down to a foot off the ground, is not a good sign at all.