Ski: How much does hunting pressure drive bucks nocturnal?

[fairchaser]

Has anyone ever experimented with only shooting does that are alone? When does are in a group and one is killed in the field, the remaining deer are now forever changed and will also train their fawns and siblings to come out after dark. Bucks will do whatever the does will do.

On stands where I hope to kill a buck, I will not shoot a doe and they seem to move about more freely. They become my live decoys.

I even had a young doe in one spot would come out to say hi. Seems like she could find my tree even though I moved around and come up to the base and smell me. This was frustrating because I was being careful but she seemed to find me easily. That will keep you humble.

 

[BSK]

Has anyone ever experimented with only shooting does that are alone? When does are in a group and one is killed in the field, the remaining deer are now forever changed and will also train their fawns and siblings to come out after dark. Bucks will do whatever the does will do.

On stands where I hope to kill a buck, I will not shoot a doe and they seem to move about more freely. They become my live decoys.

Nothing exactly like that. But I work with several clubs who noted that bucks stop using food plots in daylight after does get shot from the plots. For this reason, they set aside several plots as "Buck Only" plots. Only bucks can be shot from those plots. The lack of doe-killing on those plots definitely increased daylight buck usage of them compared to plots where does are still being shot.

 

[megalomaniac]

Has anyone ever experimented with only shooting does that are alone? When does are in a group and one is killed in the field, the remaining deer are now forever changed and will also train their fawns and siblings to come out after dark. Bucks will do whatever the does will do.

On stands where I hope to kill a buck, I will not shoot a doe and they seem to move about more freely. They become my live decoys.

I even had a young doe in one spot would come out to say hi. Seems like she could find my tree even though I moved around and come up to the base and smell me. This was frustrating because I was being careful but she seemed to find me easily. That will keep you humble.

So... we only shoot dry does. And never take them from plots or areas we are hunting bucks. I just don't understand why so many folks shoot themselves in the foot with mismanaging their doe harvests.

My son did really well for a 19yo kid. Killed 6 does this year, 5 out of 6 were dry. The one wet one didn't have a fawn with her, but must have been way behind in the thicket or she had recently lost it.

Ended up seeing a respectable 3.5yo 8pt this morn. Nice buck for south MS, just not quite what I was looking for. I ended up seeing 5 deer total this morn well away from plots and feeders.. The other 2 guys sitting on plots with feeders this morn didn't see a single deer.

 

[Ski]

My belief based on experience and trail cams is that deer movement cycles naturally and is repeatable annually like clockwork. Doesn't matter if I'm there hunting or not. The cycles happen. I also do not believe deer vacate their ranges because they encountered a hunter. Sure I believe a deer will avoid a stand site if it's been hunted too much or the deer experienced something traumatic there, but it's not leaving the area. It lives there because it has nowhere else to be. A given area has finite resources that can support only so many deer for so long, so deer naturally are spread about the landscape. They're extremely thin in areas with low resources and congregated in areas with high resources, but any given place will equalize at it's capacity. And hunting pressure doesn't factor into it. You can't chase all the deer out of your area because there's no room for them anywhere else, and other deer will not welcome them.

Deer are prey. They're born to be hunted & eaten by predators. It's literally their place in the ecosystem. That doesn't mean they're going to sacrifice themselves up to slaughter. If you hunt a spot so much that the ground stinks of you then a deer can only assume that it's a predator den. They're going to avoid it. But they aren't leaving the area. And they don't wig out over hunters to the extent that they leave & never come back. Being hunted is part of their life. It's what they're built for. They'll evade imminent danger then settle right back down. Being hunted is such a part of their life that it's normal for them. I would even argue that the more their senses allow them to evade danger, the more comfortable they become in a given area. Otherwise nobody would ever kill a deer on public land, let alone an old buck. Why are those deer there if they're being hunted so constantly? Because it's their home and they have enough familiarity with it to trust their senses in keeping them alive. Private ground is no different. Deer don't know the difference in land ownership.

That's how I see hunting pressure. I don't think it's nearly as big a deal as hunters tend to believe. More than anything I believe hunters fail to adjust more than the deer do. Deer are always on the move and reacting to their environment whether it be drifting in pursuit of food, searching for mates, or evading danger. Hunters on the other hand tend to be static & complacent. They find or create a good spot and set up camp. That spot becomes their permanent go-to. Then when deer learn to avoid it the hunter thinks hunting pressure chased all the deer away. Rather than hunt with more careful thought or mobility, they continue sitting the same spot, which constantly reaffirms to the deer that it's a predator den. IMO hunting pressure affects hunters more than it does deer.

 

[huvrman]

You should check out my lease in south MS... up to 275 hunts so far by members, not a single deer killed. Plenty of deer on cameras after dark, but zero mature bucks on cameras in daylight on plots or corn feeders. Maybe they are just vampires, but my guess is it's hunting pressure that keeps them nocturnal.

In 6 years since I've been on that lease, there have been 7 mature bucks killed. 2 were on food plots/ corn feeders. The other 5 I killed away from plots or 75y downwind of plots. These bucks KNOW where the shooting houses on plots are, and just won't come out in daylight until starvation mode (2nd week of Feb)

I was raised in MS. Lived and hunted there for 20+ years. Also hunted extensively in Missouri, Alabama, and now Tennessee, on properties from 800 acre leases to small 40 acre farms. I've always felt MS deer were the toughest to fool because of the history of dog running in that state. Hard to believe it can't have an effect on deer, even if leases of thousands of acres don't allow it. We never allowed dog running on our properties, yet dogs don't know property lines and inevitably some would come through. And you can't keep rutting bucks from traveling off your property onto someone's who does. So, I'd be willing to bet through the life of a buck, he has that to contend with as well. Add that to all the other stressors and it doesn't surprise me at all they find sanctuary areas and and stay nocturnal.

 

[muddyboots]

I don't hunt anywhere that they aggressively shoot does. Makes a tremendous difference in my opinion. I personally own 20 acres. It is in the middle of some prime farmland. Big deer. When we hunt it my wife or vice versa will drive back here to pick the hunter up to keep from educating deer. It seems to work as we see deer everytime we hunt and I've seen several mature bucks this year but just not the one or 2 I'm after.

 

[fairchaser]

My belief based on experience and trail cams is that deer movement cycles naturally and is repeatable annually like clockwork. Doesn't matter if I'm there hunting or not. The cycles happen. I also do not believe deer vacate their ranges because they encountered a hunter. Sure I believe a deer will avoid a stand site if it's been hunted too much or the deer experienced something traumatic there, but it's not leaving the area. It lives there because it has nowhere else to be. A given area has finite resources that can support only so many deer for so long, so deer naturally are spread about the landscape. They're extremely thin in areas with low resources and congregated in areas with high resources, but any given place will equalize at it's capacity. And hunting pressure doesn't factor into it. You can't chase all the deer out of your area because there's no room for them anywhere else, and other deer will not welcome them.

Deer are prey. They're born to be hunted & eaten by predators. It's literally their place in the ecosystem. That doesn't mean they're going to sacrifice themselves up to slaughter. If you hunt a spot so much that the ground stinks of you then a deer can only assume that it's a predator den. They're going to avoid it. But they aren't leaving the area. And they don't wig out over hunters to the extent that they leave & never come back. Being hunted is part of their life. It's what they're built for. They'll evade imminent danger then settle right back down. Being hunted is such a part of their life that it's normal for them. I would even argue that the more their senses allow them to evade danger, the more comfortable they become in a given area. Otherwise nobody would ever kill a deer on public land, let alone an old buck. Why are those deer there if they're being hunted so constantly? Because it's their home and they have enough familiarity with it to trust their senses in keeping them alive. Private ground is no different. Deer don't know the difference in land ownership.

That's how I see hunting pressure. I don't think it's nearly as big a deal as hunters tend to believe. More than anything I believe hunters fail to adjust more than the deer do. Deer are always on the move and reacting to their environment whether it be drifting in pursuit of food, searching for mates, or evading danger. Hunters on the other hand tend to be static & complacent. They find or create a good spot and set up camp. That spot becomes their permanent go-to. Then when deer learn to avoid it the hunter thinks hunting pressure chased all the deer away. Rather than hunt with more careful thought or mobility, they continue sitting the same spot, which constantly reaffirms to the deer that it's a predator den. IMO hunting pressure affects hunters more than it does deer.

I think this is exactly right Ski. Deer don't leave their area but simply avoid the areas of heaviest predation or move in those areas after dark. Most hunters and sometimes I think that time and chance are the only reasons we don't see deer in our hunting spots. But the real reason is we've stunk those areas up. Our cameras tell us deer are still present but become nocturnal with few exceptions. We continue to hunt for those fewer and fewer exceptions. It's the law of diminishing returns, however.

 

[45-70power]

I think this is exactly right Ski. Deer don't leave their area but simply avoid the areas of heaviest predation or move in those areas after dark. Most hunters and sometimes I think that time and chance are the only reasons we don't see deer in our hunting spots. But the real reason is we've stunk those areas up. Our cameras tell us deer are still present but become nocturnal with few exceptions. We continue to hunt for those fewer and fewer exceptions. It's the law of diminishing returns, however.

I learned that deer are patterning us while we're patterning them. For proof, just Thursday evening I killed beautiful 9 point, everyone said was nocturnal. All the surrounding neighbors only had night pics as well. By moving cameras around I learned this deer was coming within 40 yards of the back porch scent checking stands I had on the hill, so I hung a stand on power pole 30yards from the porch. With all night pics being around 730 to 1030 pm, I started riding my four wheeler through the woods every night between those hours, checking cameras at night as well. He started coming through only in daylight, associating night as fourwheeler danger. Then I sat in the closest stand, so he couldn't get behind me to wind me, and killed him the first evening sit in that stand. He patterned me so I broke the pattern, to break him. Always assume they're patterning you, mature bucks are not just dumb animals, he was aged around 7 by taxidermist.

 

[DeerMan66]

It makes a tremendous difference on one of my properties. 900 acres used to be hunted heavily. Every day. You could not kill a mature deer there. They just would not move in daylight. Does either. Now spikes walked around like dummies. Fast forward to now. Members cut in half. No retirees now so no one person can hunt every day. Chance to kill a mature buck everytime you go. Regardless of time of year. Now I'm not going by facts like you have. I'm going by self observation and results.

Sounds like age discrimination to me. LOL.

 

[DeerMan66]

No hard data, but anecdotally, I did notice something interesting this year. For quite some time we hammered the does. It didn't take long before does were afraid to show their faces in daylight. We noticed a dramatic reduction in the number of buck-doe chases we were seeing in comparison to the early years, before we were intensively managing. In combination with our high doe harvest practices, the EHD outbreak of 2007 and the "slaughter all deer" policy on a neighboring Refuge dropped our doe populations to crazy low levels. In fact, in 2019, I caught exactly ONE buck-doe chase on camera. We stopped shooting does altogether, the Refuge ended it deer slaughter program, and we created a massive amount of cover habitat. This has produced a major rebound in doe numbers. But what we've noticed linked to that is the sudden increases in buck-doe chases we are seeing. We no longer bother does as they feed in food plots, and the bucks are coming there to chase them around. In 2020 through 2022 I was catching 30-40 chases on cam per season. This year, in 2023, I caught an amazing 80 chases on cam. I never thought I would see anything like that.

How many cameras to capture the 80 chases?

 

[DeerMan66]

I learned that deer are patterning us while we're patterning them. For proof, just Thursday evening I killed beautiful 9 point, everyone said was nocturnal. All the surrounding neighbors only had night pics as well. By moving cameras around I learned this deer was coming within 40 yards of the back porch scent checking stands I had on the hill, so I hung a stand on power pole 30yards from the porch. With all night pics being around 730 to 1030 pm, I started riding my four wheeler through the woods every night between those hours, checking cameras at night as well. He started coming through only in daylight, associating night as fourwheeler danger. Then I sat in the closest stand, so he couldn't get behind me to wind me, and killed him the first evening sit in that stand. He patterned me so I broke the pattern, to break him. Always assume they're patterning you, mature bucks are not just dumb animals, he was aged around 7 by taxidermist.

That was a stroke of genius. Great job.

 

[BSK]

How many cameras to capture the 80 chases?

8

And the chases are now up to 85. I'm still entering some late December data and I picked up a couple more chases. But then this has been a year like no other. In an average year, I'm going to record about 600 buck camera "events." This year, I'm at 1,300 buck events and still counting.