? on taking does

jag1

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So I have a question about the science of taking does in 2020. It's been 20 years since I was on this site and it seems that the idea of shooting does has evolved somewhat. Back then it seemed the idea was to shoot as many as you wanted. I understand that the deer hunting experience is different across the state and therefore attitudes on this topic. I used to belong to a club in Fayette County many moons ago that went from being able to shoot however many does you wanted to only one. Most members weren't killing many does as they were buck hunting.

I was always of the mindset that let the young bucks go to grow and shoot does for meat. Based on different comments on here the past few weeks have caused me to wonder if things have changed with the herd that I just haven't been paying attention to...am I still living in the past so to speak.

Never mind, I went back and found a thread that addresses some of what I've asked.
 
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DRSJ35

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I think it depends on your population. I'm no biologist just a hunter and observer. If you population of doe's isn't very big. And not many 3 year old or older bucks. I've heard people say I've seen 20 doe's on every sit. Not realizing it's the same 8 doe's your seeing over and over. Then try to bring the population of doe's down. Only to be killing just about every doe you had on the property. So make sure the doe's are not repeat doe's and indeed you have a bunch instead of the same 8 or 10. You don't want to be saying man the deer must have got EHD I'm not seeing hardly anything. Nothing wrong with letting young bucks walk if that what you feel like doing. Cause yet again you don't want to say what happened to the big ones. Well you know there won't be any if they don't grow old enough. That's my uneducated guess.
 

DoubleRidge

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I think it depends on your population. I'm no biologist just a hunter and observer. If you population of doe's isn't very big. And not many 3 year old or older bucks. I've heard people say I've seen 20 doe's on every sit. Not realizing it's the same 8 doe's your seeing over and over. Then try to bring the population of doe's down. Only to be killing just about every doe you had on the property. So make sure the doe's are not repeat doe's and indeed you have a bunch instead of the same 8 or 10. You don't want to be saying man the deer must have got EHD I'm not seeing hardly anything. Nothing wrong with letting young bucks walk if that what you feel like doing. Cause yet again you don't want to say what happened to the big ones. Well you know there won't be any if they don't grow old enough. That's my uneducated guess.

No doubt on an all day sit you can see some of the same doe family groups multiple times..... early in season I also try to consider the number of younger yearlings following mama....safe to consider half of them as button bucks.....also agree nothing wrong with letting young bucks walk....and nothing wrong with shooting them either if that's your goal....but one shouldn't shoot the first two young bucks that walk by then complain that "there are no big bucks in my area"
 

Snake

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Some believe you can't shoot an area out but I know of it happening, maybe not out but to where the population was considerably a lot less after a few years of shooting everything that walked . There are definitely some areas that need the does thinned considerably but not all areas even in unit L are like that. We kinda killed a lot of does on our lease in Giles first few years we had it but when we started seeing less deer we just about stopped and when we lost the lease about 20 some odd years later the ratio was pretty dang close , seeing about as many bucks as does. .
 

jag1

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No doubt on an all day sit you can see some of the same doe family groups multiple times..... early in season I also try to consider the number of younger yearlings following mama....safe to consider half of them as button bucks.....also agree nothing wrong with letting young bucks walk....and nothing wrong with shooting them either if that's your goal....but one shouldn't shoot the first two young bucks that walk by then complain that "there are no big bucks in my area"
For sure, if you shoot the young ones they can't grow up. I'm not opposed to tagging a young buck or doe to fill my freezer before duck season begins. I'd rather take a couple of does for the sole point of letting the younger ones have a chance. At this stage of the game for me, I'd just rather not shoot a doe if she's got this year's young ones with her. I've always heard they have a pretty good survival rate but not sure anymore with the amount of coyotes we have running around.
At the end of the day, IMO, each guy needs to make his decisions on what is right for his situation and what he feels comfortable with as long as it's legal.
 

jason2779

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I think it depends on your population. I'm no biologist just a hunter and observer. If you population of doe's isn't very big. And not many 3 year old or older bucks. I've heard people say I've seen 20 doe's on every sit. Not realizing it's the same 8 doe's your seeing over and over. Then try to bring the population of doe's down. Only to be killing just about every doe you had on the property. So make sure the doe's are not repeat doe's and indeed you have a bunch instead of the same 8 or 10. You don't want to be saying man the deer must have got EHD I'm not seeing hardly anything. Nothing wrong with letting young bucks walk if that what you feel like doing. Cause yet again you don't want to say what happened to the big ones. Well you know there won't be any if they don't grow old enough. That's my uneducated guess.
This is exactly what I have been trying to tell people, just let the does walk, and the young bucks, but our doe population is down badly! Pick out something that is different on a doe and watch you will see that most of the time it's the same doe for example a limp, slit on ear color spot different there is always something different that will stand watch instead of shooting unless you really Need the meat for yourself not someone else, most of the people sound like they really just like stacking their numbers, not all but some you hear only how many deer that they have killed. Me it's about quality deer and making sure the herd is good and healthy.
 

BSK

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jag1,

From a management perspective, does are harvested for two reasons. First, to control total population. Does are the offspring producers. To limit herd size and growth, young producers must be removed. However, first you must ascertain whether the local population is over biologically desired levels, and that requires assessing the availability and browse pressure on the best quality foods at the lowest food-resource time of year, which in TN is generally late February, before spring green-up. And it is most helpful to assess browse pressure in a late winter following a poor acorn fall. A big acorn crop can take pressure off of the primary food plants which can hide the effects of the current deer density. However, acorn crops cannot be relied upon hence looking at browse pressure in late winter following a poor acorn crop will provide the best browse pressure assessment.

Second doe harvests are used to keep the adult sex ratio in balance. A highly unbalanced adult sex ratio can lead to all sorts of poor animal performance and poor hunting experience problems. In the past, I used to advocate for as close to 1:1 ratio between adult does and adult bucks as possible. However, after working with and hunting deer herds with a wide variety of adult sex ratios, I now suggest hunters shoot for an adult sex ratio of around 1.5 to 1.7 adult does per adult buck. This ratio is balanced enough to avoid major biological problems, yet doesn't require the very intensive doe harvests and ensuing problems of excessive harvest pressure shooting for a completely balanced ratio can produce.

I would also recommend, given today's deer herds and hunter attitudes, using caution with any doe harvest program. In essence, start off slow and if needed, work your way up. Years ago, when doe harvests were first being studied, it was a different world, both biologically and from a hunter harvest perspective. Deer herds were over-abundant and few hunters shot does. In those situations, does could be shot with abandon without much effect. Immigration of over-populated doe groups from surrounding properties, and high reproductive rates could easily swamp even the most aggressive doe harvest practices on a single property (the "doe sink" problem). However, deer populations, reproductive success, and hunter attitudes have all changed. In today's conditions, adult females CAN be overharvested.

If you are considering implementing a doe harvest policy, I can't stress enough how important good data is for measuring results. Running yearly photo censuses is critical to assessing whether your doe harvest policies are having the desired result, or if they are too aggressive. This can only be determined if you have a good sense of how many adult does, adult bucks, and fawns you have each season. "What you see while hunting" will not provide this information, as different age and sex deer behave differently and will be observed by hunters at very different rates than at which they actually exist.
 

jag1

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jag1,

From a management perspective, does are harvested for two reasons. First, to control total population. Does are the offspring producers. To limit herd size and growth, young producers must be removed. However, first you must ascertain whether the local population is over biologically desired levels, and that requires assessing the availability and browse pressure on the best quality foods at the lowest food-resource time of year, which in TN is generally late February, before spring green-up. And it is most helpful to assess browse pressure in a late winter following a poor acorn fall. A big acorn crop can take pressure off of the primary food plants which can hide the effects of the current deer density. However, acorn crops cannot be relied upon hence looking at browse pressure in late winter following a poor acorn crop will provide the best browse pressure assessment.

Second doe harvests are used to keep the adult sex ratio in balance. A highly unbalanced adult sex ratio can lead to all sorts of poor animal performance and poor hunting experience problems. In the past, I used to advocate for as close to 1:1 ratio between adult does and adult bucks as possible. However, after working with and hunting deer herds with a wide variety of adult sex ratios, I now suggest hunters shoot for an adult sex ratio of around 1.5 to 1.7 adult does per adult buck. This ratio is balanced enough to avoid major biological problems, yet doesn't require the very intensive doe harvests and ensuing problems of excessive harvest pressure shooting for a completely balanced ratio can produce.

I would also recommend, given today's deer herds and hunter attitudes, using caution with any doe harvest program. In essence, start off slow and if needed, work your way up. Years ago, when doe harvests were first being studied, it was a different world, both biologically and from a hunter harvest perspective. Deer herds were over-abundant and few hunters shot does. In those situations, does could be shot with abandon without much effect. Immigration of over-populated doe groups from surrounding properties, and high reproductive rates could easily swamp even the most aggressive doe harvest practices on a single property (the "doe sink" problem). However, deer populations, reproductive success, and hunter attitudes have all changed. In today's conditions, adult females CAN be overharvested.

If you are considering implementing a doe harvest policy, I can't stress enough how important good data is for measuring results. Running yearly photo censuses is critical to assessing whether your doe harvest policies are having the desired result, or if they are too aggressive. This can only be determined if you have a good sense of how many adult does, adult bucks, and fawns you have each season. "What you see while hunting" will not provide this information, as different age and sex deer behave differently and will be observed by hunters at very different rates than at which they actually exist.
Thanks for the detailed answer. I wish I was in a position to have my own land to manage to that point. As it is, I'm blessed to have a few friends that let me hunt on their land but the situation prevents me from acquiring a large data sample of the above. Both are small plots of land. I've decided on getting a camera or two to place out there to get a better idea of what's there after reading many of the posts about cameras. The only "doe harvest policy" really would apply only to me and the landowner's son. At most, we would be taking 3 does each season.
I would agree that many hunter attitudes towards doe harvest have changed although many of the ones I personally know are buck only. I will say that they don't eat as much venison as I do : )
 

BSK

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jag1,

Given your circumstances, a fairly good rule of thumb is to take as many does as you do bucks. In most situations, removing an equal number of adult males and females will do no harm (in an area with a fairly low total buck limit).
 

hbg1

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Around 2005 we took 17 does from 330 acres, the following year there were as many or more on that property
 

philsanchez76

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Hmm... this whole thread is very insightful and interesting. I am only hunting public land in middle TN and I try to bounce around to as many pieces as possible, but it would still be helpful to know which properties could handle taking some extra does and which ones I probably shouldn't. Not sure exactly how to do that other than run cameras all year. @BSK any other suggestions for polling these public pieces?
 

BSK

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I am only hunting public land in middle TN and I try to bounce around to as many pieces as possible, but it would still be helpful to know which properties could handle taking some extra does and which ones I probably shouldn't. Not sure exactly how to do that other than run cameras all year. @BSK any other suggestions for polling these public pieces?
Looking at food resources at the end of winter property to property is the only way to really know. It does take a trained eye, but anyone can learn what to look for. The key is knowing what food resources are most nutritious and desirable in the area. Then being able to assess how much browse pressure is being applied to these resources at the lowest food availability time of year.
 

BSK

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For those who are interested in learning to identify important browse plants, years ago a book was published titled, Forest Plants of the Southeast and Their Wildlife Uses [authors Miller and Miller]. This book is one of my favorite resources. Great pictures and descriptions of each plant as well as it's importance to a variety of wildlife species, but the book is primarily focused on deer. Have no idea if the book is still in publication, but if you can find a copy, buy it!
 

philsanchez76

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Looking at food resources at the end of winter property to property is the only way to really know. It does take a trained eye, but anyone can learn what to look for. The key is knowing what food resources are most nutritious and desirable in the area. Then being able to assess how much browse pressure is being applied to these resources at the lowest food availability time of year.
Is an example of this when I pass by a privet hedge and there are no leaves anywhere below 5-6 feet? Also thanks for the Miller book recommendation
 

DoubleRidge

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For those who are interested in learning to identify important browse plants, years ago a book was published titled, Forest Plants of the Southeast and Their Wildlife Uses [authors Miller and Miller]. This book is one of my favorite resources. Great pictures and descriptions of each plant as well as it's importance to a variety of wildlife species, but the book is primarily focused on deer. Have no idea if the book is still in publication, but if you can find a copy, buy it!

Quick search shows the book recommendation is still available....thanks!
 

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TDW05

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Where I hunt on the east side, I may take 1, but our numbers are so low I question shooting even 1. I just like seeing deer and I'm lucky to see double digits for the entire year. Usually, in my part, the deer you kill is the only deer you see that hunt. I envy the boys on the west side that see 10+ deer a sit.
 

JCDEERMAN

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Where I hunt on the east side, I may take 1, but our numbers are so low I question shooting even 1. I just like seeing deer and I'm lucky to see double digits for the entire year. Usually, in my part, the deer you kill is the only deer you see that hunt. I envy the boys on the west side that see 10+ deer a sit.
Not all of us on the west side LOL - I know the feeling. We are in Hickman and the 2019 and 2020 seasons have been the worst years hunting I've ever had in my life. I went to the east side earlier this year to hunt and saw tons of deer. I had 7 sits in a row without seeing a deer in Hickman. EHD is a bad, bad dude
 

BSK

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Where I hunt on the east side, I may take 1, but our numbers are so low I question shooting even 1. I just like seeing deer and I'm lucky to see double digits for the entire year. Usually, in my part, the deer you kill is the only deer you see that hunt. I envy the boys on the west side that see 10+ deer a sit.
I hunt managed land in Humphreys County, one of the better counties in the region. If I saw 10+ per sit I would be seriously concerned! In a good year, we see at least one deer on only 40-50% of our hunts. An antlered buck on about 25% of our hunts.

The good buck I killed MZ this year was the first deer I had seen in 7 hunts.
 

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