Growing Mature Bucks

[Ski]

Of course.
There is also a VAST difference in soil quality between the river bottoms of Western KY and mountain hardwoods of East KY.

But I don't believe there's so much difference between the soils on those far West TN counties bordering the Mississippi River vs. West KY river bordering counties.

The bigger difference than soils (between those TN counties vs KY counties bordering the same River) is antler high grading by TN hunters. This is mainly resulting from the differences in deer hunting regulations, and am not saying TN is wrong nor KY correct, just pointing out that hunting regulations do make differences, often trumping the differences in soils.

There is also a difference in hunter "mindset" when comparing hunting in TN vs. KY. The same TN hunter tends to raise his shooter buck standards when he hunts KY. But again, this is in part due to differences in the hunting regs. Those who live & hunt anywhere along the TN-KY state line see this, even in Middle & East TN, not just far West TN.

I agree 100% that the soil composition on one side of the river is no different than the other side. That river has flooded so many times throughout history that the entire river valley has the same sediment. The people who inhabit it are the same, too, regardless of which side they reside. The river doesn't segregate families and friends to create a border between cultures or beliefs, so I find it hard to believe hunters are that much different in mindset. That leaves only one difference that could reasonably result in bigger deer in KY than in TN, and that is regulations.

Unless something changes with regs we'll never know. Imo, the worst thing a state can do is allow long fun seasons that overlap the rut. I whole heartedly believe anywhere from PA to IA dow to LA, within proximity of the major river sediment bottoms, could produce world record class deer if the herd and seasons were managed to allow deer to reach maturity. Imagine what bucks would suddenly exist in west TN if only does were hunted for 3yrs., no bucks. I don't think it's a stretch to think a new world record typical could be killed that fourth year.

That all said, all of TN does not have that same potential. Most of it does not. But that's the same for every state. All of the big buck states have one thing in common. Their "trophy" zones are the part of the state that is bordered by a major river. The ones that produce the most big bucks are the ones with shorter gun seasons that occur after the rut.

 

[TheLBLman]

I whole heartedly believe anywhere from PA to IA dow to LA, within proximity of the major river sediment bottoms, could produce world record class deer if the herd and seasons were managed to allow deer to reach maturity.

I very much disagree with you, but not like you may be thinking.

MATURE bucks and top-end antlered mature bucks are not one of the same.

It's actually quite possible right now that TN has more "MATURE" bucks than KY!

The "wild card" here is antler-high grading of TN's genetically best antlered bucks being killed more as yearlings, 2 1/2's, & 3 1/2's (than are KY's). This is mainly due to regulation differences between the 2 states.

In TN, we're just killing off more of our "best stock" before they can "express" their genetic potential. We in TN may also be giving a pass to more below average antlered young bucks than hunters are doing in KY. Chew on that thought for a moment.

The people who inhabit it are the same, too, regardless of which side they reside. The river doesn't segregate families and friends to create a border between cultures or beliefs, so I find it hard to believe hunters are that much different in mindset.

Regarding most matters of life, you would be correct with your assessment here of these "river" people's human natures

But as to how they decide what are "shooter" bucks vs bucks getting a pass, there is more difference in these hunters' mindsets than you might think, depending on which state they are deer hunting.

I know too many avid deer hunters living near the TN-KY line, and their shooter buck standards are very different in KY than in TN. This is not because of soil differences, and may be as much about peer influence as the regulatory environments. So it kinda comes down to which came first, the chicken or the egg, but imo, those differences in hunter thoughts were initially shaped most by the respective states' hunting regulations.

 

[Ski]

I very much disagree with you, but not like you may be thinking.

MATURE bucks and top-end antlered mature bucks are not one of the same.

It's actually quite possible right now that TN has more "MATURE" bucks than KY!

The "wild card" here is antler-high grading of TN's genetically best antlered bucks being killed more as yearlings, 2 1/2's, & 3 1/2's (than are KY's). This is mainly due to regulation differences between the 2 states.

In TN, we're just killing off more of our "best stock" before they can "express" their genetic potential. We in TN may also be giving a pass to more below average antlered young bucks than hunters are doing in KY. Chew on that thought for a moment.


Regarding most matters of life, you would be correct with your assessment here of these "river" people's human natures

But as to how they decide what are "shooter" bucks vs bucks getting a pass, there is more difference in these hunters' mindsets than you might think, depending on which state they are deer hunting.

I know too many avid deer hunters living near the TN-KY line, and their shooter buck standards are very different in KY than in TN. This is not because of soil differences, and may be as much about peer influence as the regulatory environments. So it kinda comes down to which came first, the chicken or the egg, but imo, those differences in hunter thoughts were initially shaped most by the respective states' hunting regulations.

I dont bite off on the antler high grading. Its just not that singular. I'm not dismissing it as if it doesn't happen. I believe it happens everywhere and is not a TN specific issue, nor do i believe it prevents an entire region or state from producing big antlers.

I regularly hunt MO, WI, and OH. I know hunters in IA, IL, IN, etc. It's the same echo chamber everywhere about high grading, shooting superior young bucks. You blame the TN hunting culture while the big buck states blame out of state hunters. But yall have the same gripe. The difference is that they can and do produce giant racks, even just a few hundred yards away from here. The major difference I see is regulations.

I'll continue to keep an open mind but as of now I see zero reason west TN couldn't produce giants as big as anywhere. The loose, liberal regulations that cater to the masses of gun hunters is what I feel hinders that region of the state's trophy potential. Even if the cause is as you believe, a culture that shoots too many young studs, then that in itself arguably can be pointed directly at regulations that not only allow it but create an environment where it's easy. With a few reg changes TN I believe could be a trophy producer almost immediately.

The problem is that doing so would inevitably piss off a huge population of hunters....at least for awhile. But with the younger generation of hunters being more quality driven, and education on the subject more accessible to them, it's only a matter of time before it happens.

 

[TheLBLman]

I dont bite off on the antler high grading. Its just not that singular. I'm not dismissing it as if it doesn't happen. I believe it happens everywhere and is not a TN specific issue, nor do i believe it prevents an entire region or state from producing big antlers.

IMO, you're are not appreciating the significance of antler high grading by hunters, nor my pointing out that the deer hunting regulations are the #1 factor contributing to it.

Antler high grading will exist anywhere & everywhere there is buck hunting, unless, no bucks were killed prior to reaching full maturity of 5 1/2 or older. That kind of age-based criteria will never happen in most places, or at least not in most places with enough acreage to fully encompass a buck's roamings.

Even where a maturity age rule exists, mistakes happen, and those mistakes typically mean top-end 3 1/2s or 4 1/2s getting killed when the rule is 5 1/2 or older.

We, as individual hunters can reduce antler high-grading by more of us focusing on only taking 5 1/2 & older bucks. It's just not reasonable to expect that from all hunters, much less even most hunters, and again, the best of us will still make mistakes.

What most drives antler high grading is the number of deer gun hunting days. More gun hunting days, more antler high grading from hunters. But it happens anywhere there is any hunting, regardless whether archery or gun.

It happens to a much greater extent in TN than KY mainly because we have over twice as many gun hunting days. Sure, there are other factors, but believe this is #1. Antler restrictions tend to make antler high-grading worse.

I have no problem with TN's regs being tweaked slightly in an effort to slightly increase herd health and slightly decrease antler high grading. About the only thing currently practical & "reasonable" (my opinion) would be to totally end deer season a few days earlier (such as December 31st).

About the only way to near eliminate hunters' antler high grading is to have zero deer hunting.
Even then, the top-end antlered bucks get illegally poached at a much higher rate than average antlered ones.

 

[BSK]

Unfortunately, we don't have the data necessary to say with any certainty what differences KY's versus TN's regulations have on harvests and/or high-grading. I think it's very possible TN deer hunters - knowing they have 2 tags - shoot the first "decent" buck they see (possibly a large-antlered 2 or 3 year-old) knowing they can hold off for Mr. Big with their 2nd tag. On the other hand, KY hunters, having only 1 tag, are constantly holding off for Mr. Big.

But we don't have accurate enough harvest data between the two regions to know if this is a reality.

 

[Ski]

It seems to me we may be talking in circles around one another. I think? we both agree that regulations are the core cause of antler size discrepancy from one state to another.

And don't read me wrong. I'm not against TN's regulations. TWRA and every other state have to walk a tightrope in attempting to keep their constituency happy. In doing so they inevitably piss off large chunks of hunters and rarely please anybody, but that's just the nature of their job. I don't envy them. All I was doing is pointing out a "what if?". If gun season was shorter and didn't occur until after rut, then move ML season to follow gun season, TN would begin producing many, many more trophy animals. If TN paused buck hunting for a couple years, that third year when it opened back up I bet would see tremendous jump in trophy kills. Am I saying any of that should happen? Absolutely not. I'm not qualified to make that decision for everybody else based on my own selfish causes.

As for poaching, it's a static issue that will remain regardless of regulations. There needs to be a swift, severe, and comprehensive campaign to deal with it. IMO it's a MUCH more prominent issue than any other. Between corn piles and road hunting I'd venture say a fair percentage of bucks are taken illegally.

 

[BSK]

It seems to me we may be talking in circles around one another. I think? we both agree that regulations are the core cause of antler size discrepancy from one state to another.

This is where I disagree with most hunters. I think too many hunters see bigger bucks killed in KY than TN, then see the differences in regulations and assume the reason for the bigger bucks in KY is the regulations. I think the two have little to do with each other.

But again, not enough data to be able to say with any certainty.

 

[Ski]

Unfortunately, we don't have the data necessary to say with any certainty what differences KY's versus TN's regulations have on harvests and/or high-grading. I think it's very possible TN deer hunters - knowing they have 2 tags - shoot the first "decent" buck they see (possibly a large-antlered 2 or 3 year-old) knowing they can hold off for Mr. Big with their 2nd tag. On the other hand, KY hunters, having only 1 tag, are constantly holding off for Mr. Big.

But we don't have accurate enough harvest data between the two regions to know if this is a reality.

I agree with all of that. Indeed I sometimes am even involved in it. I'd say guilty of it but I don't feel guilty because I didn't do anything wrong. This year I shot a questionably aged buck for no other reason than he was jerk to all the other deer. Last season I shot a 3yr old because I hadn't had any luck and it was late in the season, so I shot the first rack buck that tickled my fancy. He was by no means "gifted". He only had 7pts and a very small rack for his age & body size.

I also agree that all we're doing is speculative. It's all we have so it's what we do. That said, I speculate from the perspective of a trophy hunter. Although I do fancy myself as a novice habitat tinkerer, I'm mostly driven by hanging giant antlers on my wall. And I travel to do it. That traveling isn't just by chance, though. I'm specifically looking at a map of the USA overlaid with trophy kill reports, picking out patterns and/or areas that I feel will give me an edge. One thing that is immediately obvious is the concentration of trophy bucks killed within 100mi of major river systems. Next is not immediately obvious but becomes so when you begin seeing gaps, areas where trophy kills fade or are void but otherwise the area should be a good producer on paper. When you look at the hunting regs for those states the one thing they have in common is firearms during rut. TN is one of them. While mostly anecdotal it is evident enough for me to use hunting regs in determining whether I hunt a state or not. If I didn't live in TN, I wouldn't make an effort to hunt here.

 

[Ski]

This is where I disagree with most hunters. I think too many hunters see bigger bucks killed in KY than TN, then see the differences in regulations and assume the reason for the bigger bucks in KY is the regulations. I think the two have little to do with each other.

But again, not enough data to be able to say with any certainty.

I'm not so blindly ignorant to ignore other issues. It's nuanced & multi-faceted. But when choosing a place to hunt trophies I have to consider the odds of success so that I don't waste time & money chasing something that doesn't exist. On here it's entertaining to discuss the differing perspectives and I learn an awful lot of insight from yall that I otherwise wouldn't have noticed on my own, so I sincerely do appreciate the dialogue & engagement yall offer. I sure don't know all the answers, nor am I qualified to make decisions for anybody/anything other than for myself.

 

[TheLBLman]

For those of us who most want things to change or start trending in the direction we prefer, we should start first with ourselves?

Last season I shot a 3yr old because I hadn't had any luck and it was late in the season, so I shot the first rack buck that tickled my fancy.

Perfectly legal, even in Kentucky
Last season, I went buck-less, just shot some does, because I couldn't find a single buck that tickled my fancy

 

[Ski]

For those of us who most want things to change or start trending in the direction we prefer, we should start first with ourselves.

That's where we differ. I don't necessarily want to change. If 150" deer were common and everybody was killing them, then I want to hunt only booners. Then if B&C deer become so common that everybody was killing them, I'd only want to hunt world records. At some point there will be diminishing returns and I'd no longer be happy with the change. To be quite honest I enjoy the difficulty of finding and hunting the biggest, oldest bucks I'm able to reasonably hunt. Sliding the odds in my favor with habitat work is a big part of that fun. If it became easy I would no longer glean enjoyment from it.

I love the conversations, debates, studying the cause & effect, habitat work, deer studies, and speculating on regulations. But I'm eat up with deer hunting so all this stuff interests me. It's not like that for most folks. The mass of hunters will kill a 120" 2yr old and it'll be a big trophy for them. They don't care about age structures, high grading, sex ratios, soil quality, or any of the sort and never will. What kind of person would I be if I tried to change that for them?

 

[BSK]

For those of us who most want things to change or start trending in the direction we prefer, we should start first with ourselves?


Perfectly legal, even in Kentucky
Last season, I went buck-less, just shot some does, because I couldn't find a single buck that tickled my fancy

Much depends on the local situation. Every property is unique. Management techniques that work well on one property may not work the same on another. For example, with my unique property situation - where the vast majority of huntable bucks do not live there except during late October through November - we have found that what we kill one year has no relationship to what is on the property the next year. We have killed up to 7 bucks off of 500 acres one year and measured no differences in the buck age structure or antler size the next year. We have also killed no bucks off of the 500 acres and again observed no change in the buck age structure or antler development the next year.

Then again, I have worked with clients with larger properties that have more diverse habitat (have all of the habitat deer gravitate towards, both upland oaks and bottomland agriculture), and have seen amazing results from selective buck harvest, especially efforts towards reducing high-grading. In fact, I would say this has been the most successful management technique I've documented.

 

[BSK]

I love the conversations, debates, studying the cause & effect, habitat work, deer studies, and speculating on regulations. But I'm eat up with deer hunting so all this stuff interests me. It's not like that for most folks. The mass of hunters will kill a 120" 2yr old and it'll be a big trophy for them. They don't care about age structures, high grading, sex ratios, soil quality, or any of the sort and never will.

Heck, if you killed a 120" buck off my place, you would be close to making the Top 10 All-Time list! That's not to say we don't have big bucks. We usually have a buck in the 140s every year and quite often a buck pushing 150. We've even photographed a few pushing the 160 mark, and one that might have sniffed 170. But killing those bucks in our local environment is not easy.

 

[TheLBLman]

. . . . . . have seen amazing results from selective buck harvest, especially efforts towards reducing high-grading. In fact, I would say this has been the most successful management technique I've documented.

That was just a BSK-ism worth repeating
I have found same.

 

[Ski]

Heck, if you killed a 120" buck off my place, you would be close to making the Top 10 All-Time list! That's not to say we don't have big bucks. We usually have a buck in the 140s every year and quite often a buck pushing 150. We've even photographed a few pushing the 160 mark, and one that might have sniffed 170. But killing those bucks in our local environment is not easy.

And that's on intensely managed property. Imagine what it's like for the vast majority of hunters who either hunt local public, a club, or some private ground that belongs to family or is leased. The majority of the hunting population never get a chance to shoot a 120" buck. When they do, they don't care that it's only a dumb 2yr old. They saw a big rack and it's a trophy, quite possibly a once in a lifetime trophy.

My dad is one of those hunters. He's mid 70's and has never killed a buck much over 100". He's hunted the same property his entire life, same property my brother & I have hunted our entire lives. In the past 20yrs between my brother & me there have been probably 2 dozen bucks that busted P&Y taken off that property, with the majority being 140+. The difference is standards and objectives. Us boys hunt racks. Dad hunts meat. He gets excited about taking a 100" 8pt. I'm not going to be the killjoy who tells him not to.

 

[TheLBLman]

Just a little side story.

Last year (2021) I was specifically targeting a 7 1/2-yr-old buck.
I had seen this buck annually, likely even before I could sort his identity from other mainframe 8-pointers. As a 3 1/2 & 4 1/2, he was only slightly above average antlered (for the area), and by no means did he tickle my fancy. I don't think he would touch 130 gross as a 4 1/2.

But at 5 1/2, his antlers went up to over 140, as a mainframe 8. He was now on the potential shooter "list", but I was still not specifically looking for him. But the next year, as a 6 1/2, he became a 150-class mainframe 8, which I consider "world class" most anywhere in the U.S. He then became my #1 targeted buck in 2020. I had two opportunities to take a low-probability shot at him in 2020, almost got him, but didn't.

Surprisingly, he showed as a 7 1/2, still with impressive head-gear, still a mainframe 8, and still with the unique side-kicker that has made him so identifiable since 4 1/2. I planned to give a pass to all other bucks in 2021, specifically focusing on this one, or none. My plans were thwarted when a very accomplished bowhunters stuck this buck on the adjoining property. I spent many hours helping him try to find the buck I had named "Buford".

Also spent many days trying to find the dead-head, but never found anything. In retrospect, I believe an unprecedented flood right after Buford was hit, likely washed him away in the creek he appeared to have gone.

I wish someone could have recovered him, but I have no regrets in the hunting "journey" made possible by simply giving a rather average mainframe 8 a pass. While I do have a large private hunting area, it's not large enough that most bucks don't spend more time on other people's property, as did this one. Yet he still survived to 7 1/2, and had to be on many other hunters' radar when he became 5 1/2 & older.

Just saying, don't worry so much about the guy down the ridge maybe shooting one you give a pass. Shoot what tickles your fancy, but keep in mind many bucks do not express enough of their antlers' genetic potential until the hit 5 1/2 (almost most will be close at 4 1/2).

If you really want to up the ante on producing above average antlered mature bucks in your hunting area, it's imperative to routinely give all 3 1/2's a pass.

 

[TheLBLman]

IMO, post-rut natural mortality is extremely high on both 5 1/2 & 6 1/2-yr-old TN bucks, and very, very few will live to 6 1/2 or 7 1/2, even in areas they're not hunted. But I do believe many can be hunted & killed as late as the hunting season they're 6 1/2. If not killed by human hunters, I believe most 6 1/2-yr-old TN bucks simply die of "natural" causes, which commonly includes pneumonia (for poor aged health) and predation (commonly by dogs, not just coyotes).

But if you want the ultimate TN deer-hunting challenge, try specifically targeting a 5 1/2 or older doe in Unit L. This can be a great way to end your annual deer season.

 

[Ski]

If you really want to up the ante on producing above average antlered mature bucks in your hunting area, it's imperative to routinely give all 3 1/2's a pass.

On some properties I do just that because history has shown they have a fair chance at surviving into old age. On some properties not a chance. It's a revolving door of young bucks and rarely if ever have a a mature buck roaming in & out. Not everywhere holds the same potential. Doesn't mean I'm going to shoot a 3yr old, but if I do it'll be on one of those properties. I save my higher standards for my higher odds properties. When in Rome ....

But if you want the ultimate TN deer-hunting challenge, try specifically targeting a 5 1/2 or older doe in Unit L. This can be a great way to end your annual deer season.

That is true. These old nannies in unit L are clever & seasoned.

 

[BSK]

My dad is one of those hunters. He's mid 70's and has never killed a buck much over 100". He's hunted the same property his entire life, same property my brother & I have hunted our entire lives. In the past 20yrs between my brother & me there have been probably 2 dozen bucks that busted P&Y taken off that property, with the majority being 140+. The difference is standards and objectives. Us boys hunt racks. Dad hunts meat. He gets excited about taking a 100" 8pt. I'm not going to be the killjoy who tells him not to.

My hunting land is family land. We own and hunt it for entertainment and as an excuse to gather as a family. We have 5-6 family member that hunt it fairly intensively, although 2 of the hunters only come in from out-of-state for 5-7 days of hunting opening week of MZ season, and that's it for them for the year. Because of this, any buck 2 1/2 or older is a target. This allows those short-term hunters a good chance of killing a buck each year. And we do kill a fair number of 2 1/2 year-olds. We've got a wall full of 85-95 class 2 1/2 year-old 8-point European mounts to show for it. I'm one of the only hunters that tries to hold off for 3 1/2 or better. I don't put in the most tree-stand time, in fact far from it. But it does seem odd that of the 101 bucks that have been killed off the property in the 36 seasons we've owned/hunted this property, the top 8 bucks ever killed are mine. I'm by no means a great, dedicated or skilled hunter. In fact, I get lazier the older I get. But knowing something about how bucks use terrain and habitat seems to pay off. That doesn't mean I'm passing up buck after buck each year, but it does seem to up my odds of having one of the better bucks wander by.

 

[TheLBLman]

The family that hunts together, stays together

We have 5-6 family member that hunt it fairly intensively, although 2 of the hunters only come in from out-of-state for 5-7 days of hunting opening week of MZ season, and that's it for them for the year. Because of this, any buck 2 1/2 or older is a target. This allows those short-term hunters a good chance of killing a buck each year.

Not criticizing this thought, but my personal paradigm has shifted somewhat from "killing a buck" each year to "killing a deer" each year.

I honestly get more personal satisfaction in taking a mature doe than a young buck.

Even the paradigm for "young" has changed, as there was I time when I and many others considered a 2 1/2 to be an "older" buck. We even had TWRA's top deer manager saying or thinking that at one time.