Doe management question

[Urban_Hunter]

I've never followed along with this, but I'm trying to understand. My vision is blurred due to some coyote and fawn deprivation stats I've seen over the years and I'm curious as to what you guys think and do.

I've seen the coyote stat about how a female fawn can have two female fawns and then the three of them have fawns and how over a deer's lifetime it's family tree could have over 100 deer in it, therefore losing that one fawn to a coyote potentially removed 100 deer from the 5-7 year population. My theory has always been, half of those deer are bucks (so 50) and maybe a percentage reaches maturity and a percentage of those are prized bucks. Let's just say 3… out of the hundred. So, if I got my hunting area and take out 10 does, I'm potentially taking away 30 bucks that I would prefer to have on the hoof. Also, reducing the area population by, in the example, 100 fold.

I know there are outside influences as well, I just don't understand how reducing breeding does increases buck chances. However, in owning my property for 6 years, I've only taken 1 doe. The hunting pressure on neighboring properties has dropped significantly since locals have moved out and doctors and yuppies moving in. The deer population seems like it has exploded. However… it seems like buck/doe here is minimally at 10:1. Trail cams make it seem like 20:1. How and why is this the case? Drove our "loop" yesterday evening, a few square miles, counted 54 deer in yards and fields, all does barring two spikes and a 4pt.

 

[themanpcl]

Just my opinion...Depending on what you witness as buck/doe ratio, you would need to decide how many to remove to get your place where you want it. I know I won't ever see all the bucks or does on the lease but I see the same doe groups all the time so I base my removal plan on that. Example: This year like last year, I have seen the same 3-4 groups of does and I am pretty certain they live on the property all year. Total of about 15. There are many more that I see in season that pass through. I know i want to remove the older does out of each group if given the chance but I want to at least remove 4-6 this year. I see many yotes on the property but have never seen any evidence they have taken deer or turkey. I walk the land a lot off season and don't see bones, fur etc. I shoot yotes whenever they present. Depending on what you see for bucks/does and yotes, you can determine your removal number. Now, do I get my quota every year? lol, No, not hardly but I have the number should I be fortunate enough. Just my opinion.

 

[Boll Weevil]

If your deer density and sex ratios are indeed that out of whack it wouldn't make any difference if every single fawn that hit the ground was a buck (vs 50/50). That many mouths reproducing unchecked with finite space and food would likely make for a localized herd of undersized, socially stressed, poorly fed deer. That might be some of what you're seeing already; 53 does and 3 dinks.

 

[BSK]

Doe removal - hence population stabilization or reduction - is only needed if the habitat cannot support the local population. Evidence of this would be 1) severe browse-lines on most food sources, 2) low fawn survival, 3) low body weights of adult deer, 4) high natural mortality rates, as most deer in an overpopulated herd do not die of starvation, they die of malnutrition-related diseases.

Just remember, some habitat can support a lot of deer in a relatively healthy manner. Some habitats cannot support even a low deer density in a healthy manner. EVERYTHING is based on habitat quality. But as the deer density increases, habitat quality declines, as more mouths eat away the best food sources first, leaving only lower-quality food sources remaining.

Also remember you CANNOT stockpile deer like in your example. Eventually you run out of food, or at least high-quality food, and reproductive success will rapidly decline (even without hunting). Most healthy deer herds will double their population every 2 years. But as the herd explodes in size, eventually that population growth slows dramatically once the habitat resources begin to decline due to over-browsing. Eventually, a very overpopulated herd stops growing. Births equal deaths and the herd population stabilizes, albeit at an extremely low health level.

 

[BSK]

However… it seems like buck/doe here is minimally at 10:1. Trail cams make it seem like 20:1. How and why is this the case? Drove our "loop" yesterday evening, a few square miles, counted 54 deer in yards and fields, all does barring two spikes and a 4pt.

Something is wrong about how those cameras are being set-up. That, or you have extremely low fawn survival. As long as fawn survival is adequate, it is almost biologically impossible to have a pre-hunt adult sex ratio (you don't count all antlerless deer as "does" in sex ratio calculations. Many of those antlerless deer are fawns, half of which are male) exceeding about 3 does per buck. I could go over the math of how that works, but it is accurate. That is IF fawn production and survival are adequate. In a very over-populated herd, it is not uncommon for few fawns to survive to adulthood.

Although what "Nature" produces without the influence of Man is a bit different, a "healthy" managed deer herd should have (pre-hunt) - for every 100 adult does - about 60-70 fawns, and around 60-70 bucks. That would be a fawn recruitment rate of 60-70% and an adult sex ratio of 1.5 does per buck.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Something is wrong about how those cameras are being set-up. That, or you have extremely low fawn survival. As long as fawn survival is adequate, it is almost biologically impossible to have a pre-hunt adult sex ratio (you don't count all antlerless deer as "does" in sex ratio calculations. Many of those antlerless deer are fawns, half of which are male) exceeding about 3 does per buck. I could go over the math of how that works, but it is accurate. That is IF fawn production and survival are adequate. In a very over-populated herd, it is not uncommon for few fawns to survive to adulthood.

Although what "Nature" produces without the influence of Man is a bit different, a "healthy" managed deer herd should have (pre-hunt) - for every 100 adult does - about 60-70 fawns, and around 60-70 bucks. That would be a fawn recruitment rate of 60-70% and an adult sex ratio of 1.5 does per buck.

Very interesting....I was hoping you would reply with some explanation.....I've told people before that it would be extremely rare to see a pre-hunt ratio greater than 3 does per buck and they look at me like I'm from another planet....lol....but when you study on it and do the math and run camera surveys collecting thousands of pictures you see its true.

But I do have a question about Fawn Recruitment Rates at 60-70%...isn't that high for what land managers are seeing currently in the southeast? Or should we expect rates this high? Or I guess I should ask what's the average rate in the southeast today? Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[BSK]

Very interesting....I was hoping you would reply with some explanation.....I've told people before that it would be extremely rare to see a pre-hunt ratio greater than 3 does per buck and they look at me like I'm from another planet....lol....but when you study on it and do the math and run camera surveys collecting thousands of pictures you see its true.

It is all because, in a healthy deer herd with high fawn recruitment, even if you kill no does and every living adult buck, the big crop of male fawns all become yearling bucks pre-hunt the following year. This makes it impossible to have a pre-hunt sex ratio skewed much beyond 3 does per buck. But again, that's assuming a high fawn production and survival rate. Reduce the fawn recruitment rate dramatically and suddenly you can have the pre-hunt sex ratio down around 4 or even 4.5 adult does per buck (given a very high kill rate of bucks each hunting season, which doesn't happen much anymore).

But I do have a question about Fawn Recruitment Rates at 60-70%...isn't that high for what land managers are seeing currently in the southeast? Or should we expect rates this high? Or I guess I should ask what's the average rate in the southeast today? Thanks in advance for your input.

It is high. But I said a healthy deer herd! Something is going on across the Southeast since about 2006 that I (and others) don't understand. In areas that used to see 100-120% fawn recruitment, they are now seeing 30-40%. And that very high recruitment of the past was under a higher deer density than we have now. Something very odd is going on across the Southeast.

 

[UCStandSitter]

@BSK one day I wanna buy you a cup of coffee and listen to you talk about deer for 15-20 hrs

 

[DoubleRidge]

It is all because, in a healthy deer herd with high fawn recruitment, even if you kill no does and every living adult buck, the big crop of male fawns all become yearling bucks pre-hunt the following year. This makes it impossible to have a pre-hunt sex ratio skewed much beyond 3 does per buck. But again, that's assuming a high fawn production and survival rate. Reduce the fawn recruitment rate dramatically and suddenly you can have the pre-hunt sex ratio down around 4 or even 4.5 adult does per buck (given a very high kill rate of bucks each hunting season, which doesn't happen much anymore).


It is high. But I said a healthy deer herd! Something is going on across the Southeast since about 2006 that I (and others) don't understand. In areas that used to see 100-120% fawn recruitment, they are now seeing 30-40%. And that very high recruitment of the past was under a higher deer density than we have now. Something very odd is going on across the Southeast.

Thanks again for the detailed explanation...very interesting...appreciate it.

 

[recurve60#]

Doe removal - hence population stabilization or reduction - is only needed if the habitat cannot support the local population. Evidence of this would be 1) severe browse-lines on most food sources, 2) low fawn survival, 3) low body weights of adult deer, 4) high natural mortality rates, as most deer in an overpopulated herd do not die of starvation, they die of malnutrition-related diseases.

Just remember, some habitat can support a lot of deer in a relatively healthy manner. Some habitats cannot support even a low deer density in a healthy manner. EVERYTHING is based on habitat quality. But as the deer density increases, habitat quality declines, as more mouths eat away the best food sources first, leaving only lower-quality food sources remaining.

Also remember you CANNOT stockpile deer like in your example. Eventually you run out of food, or at least high-quality food, and reproductive success will rapidly decline (even without hunting). Most healthy deer herds will double their population every 2 years. But as the herd explodes in size, eventually that population growth slows dramatically once the habitat resources begin to decline due to over-browsing. Eventually, a very overpopulated herd stops growing. Births equal deaths and the herd population stabilizes, albeit at an extremely low health level.

I truly have to kill alot of does this year.

 

[recurve60#]

It is all because, in a healthy deer herd with high fawn recruitment, even if you kill no does and every living adult buck, the big crop of male fawns all become yearling bucks pre-hunt the following year. This makes it impossible to have a pre-hunt sex ratio skewed much beyond 3 does per buck. But again, that's assuming a high fawn production and survival rate. Reduce the fawn recruitment rate dramatically and suddenly you can have the pre-hunt sex ratio down around 4 or even 4.5 adult does per buck (given a very high kill rate of bucks each hunting season, which doesn't happen much anymore).


It is high. But I said a healthy deer herd! Something is going on across the Southeast since about 2006 that I (and others) don't understand. In areas that used to see 100-120% fawn recruitment, they are now seeing 30-40%. And that very high recruitment of the past was under a higher deer density than we have now. Something very odd is going on across the Southeast.

What I see is nobody killing does in the rut anymore. Scared they'd ruin a chance at a buck behind them. In the 70's, 80's and 90's doe were piled up by the truckloads in ML. Thats quite honestly a big change I see now.

 

[tellico4x4]

We try to kill our does during bow & ML. Whatever we lack in the number we wanted to kill, we do the last two days of regular gun & the 5 day private land antlerless season. Taking them out early seems to help a bit with intensity of rut.

 

[BSK]

Taking them out early seems to help a bit with intensity of rut.

That is the theory, and within reason, true. However, high doe harvests early can produce problems. In the past, I used to push landowners/hunters to shoot for a 1.0 to 1.2 adult does per buck sex ratio. However, often times the intensity of doe harvest required to produce that ratio causes does to become very hunter shy, and they stop moving during daylight. If the does stop moving during daylight, the bucks following them don't move during daylight. Although a "natural" deer herd has an adult sex ratio around 1.2 adult does per buck, from a hunting standpoint, I believe 1.5 does per buck works better. It is still balanced enough to produce good rutting action and a tightly timed rut but doesn't require so much doe killing that you drive the does and following bucks nocturnal.

 

[BSK]

@BSK one day I wanna buy you a cup of coffee and listen to you talk about deer for 15-20 hrs

My wife says I'm really quite boring to listen to. "blah, blah, blah, sex ratios, blah, blah, blah..."

 

[muddyboots]

I like seeing deer. On properties I hunt i shoot does with a bow only. That's just me.

 

[tellico4x4]

That is the theory, and within reason, true. However, high doe harvests early can produce problems. In the past, I used to push landowners/hunters to shoot for a 1.0 to 1.2 adult does per buck sex ratio. However, often times the intensity of doe harvest required to produce that ratio causes does to become very hunter shy, and they stop moving during daylight. If the does stop moving during daylight, the bucks following them don't move during daylight. Although a "natural" deer herd has an adult sex ratio around 1.2 adult does per buck, from a hunting standpoint, I believe 1.5 does per buck works better. It is still balanced enough to produce good rutting action and a tightly timed rut but doesn't require so much doe killing that you drive the does and following bucks nocturnal.

1.5 is where I like to be as well. Maintained that for several years but have been slowly inching up the past 3. Last two years have been a trickle rut for us. Still getting pics of several pregnant does across property & lots of really small ones around too. We're gonna take a few more does out this year. Only allow to kill them on plots during bow, first week of ML & special antlerless at end of season past two seasons. Seeing mature bucks during daylight is usually not a problem since we implemented that rule.

 

[megalomaniac]

My biggest complaint with doe harvest strategies is that almost NOONE has a clue on what is appropriate for a given property... because NOONE has actually taken the time to do an accurate herd density or age/sex ratio or fawn recruitment ratio.

An example... I have dozens of friends with properties in MS who have signed up on the DMAP program (which allows an individual to kill more than 3 or 5 (depending on unit) does per hunter per season). Universally, the state 'biologists', recommend exactly the same number of does to be killed... 1 per 40 to 50 acres under management. For some properties, that is inadequate... for most, that is FAR too excessive. And what's mindboggling... they continue to recommend the exact same number of does per acre to be killed year after year after year....

Those properties who do kill their recommended does (25 per 1000 acres annually) find the number of trophy bucks (130in or better) to decline drastically over time. At the same time, the quality of hunter experience (seeing seer) drastically declines over the years as well. Yet the same blanket doe harvest recommendations are put forth year after year after year. And when age structure of does killed are skewed towards 1.5 and 2.5yos... guess what... still 1 doe per 40 acres recommended.

Sure, it is easy to make a generalization. And hide that generalization under the guise of 'biology'.. but 95% of hunters are simply not capable of observing, collecting age/ weight/ lactation rates/ sex age trail camera ratios to make the correct doe harvest goals. And that's OK... its fine if the majority of hunters aren't that into it. Nothing wrong with that.... but don't fool yourself thinking you are doing the right thing by killing a bunch of does or not killing any does on your property unless you truly understand herd dynamics and year specific fawn recruitment... and willing to flip in a single year from aggressive doe harvests to conservative doe harvests.


Blah, blah, blah... too much diatribe.

As much as I HATE generalizations when it comes to doe harvests...for the average landowner who isn't into all the data collection, monitoring of habitat conditions, fawn recruitment, etc..... just kill 2 does for every buck killed. That will work for 80% of the properties out there.

 

[BSK]

My biggest complaint with doe harvest strategies is that almost NOONE has a clue on what is appropriate for a given property... because NOONE has actually taken the time to do an accurate herd density or age/sex ratio or fawn recruitment ratio.

An example... I have dozens of friends with properties in MS who have signed up on the DMAP program (which allows an individual to kill more than 3 or 5 (depending on unit) does per hunter per season). Universally, the state 'biologists', recommend exactly the same number of does to be killed... 1 per 40 to 50 acres under management. For some properties, that is inadequate... for most, that is FAR too excessive. And what's mindboggling... they continue to recommend the exact same number of does per acre to be killed year after year after year....

Those properties who do kill their recommended does (25 per 1000 acres annually) find the number of trophy bucks (130in or better) to decline drastically over time. At the same time, the quality of hunter experience (seeing seer) drastically declines over the years as well. Yet the same blanket doe harvest recommendations are put forth year after year after year. And when age structure of does killed are skewed towards 1.5 and 2.5yos... guess what... still 1 doe per 40 acres recommended.

Sure, it is easy to make a generalization. And hide that generalization under the guise of 'biology'.. but 95% of hunters are simply not capable of observing, collecting age/ weight/ lactation rates/ sex age trail camera ratios to make the correct doe harvest goals. And that's OK... its fine if the majority of hunters aren't that into it. Nothing wrong with that.... but don't fool yourself thinking you are doing the right thing by killing a bunch of does or not killing any does on your property unless you truly understand herd dynamics and year specific fawn recruitment... and willing to flip in a single year from aggressive doe harvests to conservative doe harvests.


Blah, blah, blah... too much diatribe.

As much as I HATE generalizations when it comes to doe harvests...for the average landowner who isn't into all the data collection, monitoring of habitat conditions, fawn recruitment, etc..... just kill 2 does for every buck killed. That will work for 80% of the properties out there.

I give credit to states for implementing DMAP programs. However, giving detailed harvest recommendations without detailed population dynamics data is a dangerous game. That's why I'm hesitant to comment anytime someone on this site asks, "How many does should we kill?" That answer would depend on a lot of factors I don't know.

Once again, I want to emphatically state I appreciate states that try to help landowners/clubs by implementing DMAP programs. However, if they are not going to look closely at each property's data - that they require hunters to collect - why even collect it? In my opinion, THE key piece of data indicating too many does are being killed (as Mega pointed out) is declining harvested doe age. Considering few hunters can identify doe age on-the-hoof beyond 2 1/2, does are basically harvested randomly by age hence their ages are a good random sample. What happened years ago when too many bucks were being harvested? Harvested buck age declined until the majority of harvested bucks were yearlings. The same will be true if too many does are being killed. Their harvested age will decline until the vast majority are yearlings and 2 1/2 year-olds. Just as we biologists/managers harped on how important it was to have a more natural buck age structure for herd dynamics, it is equally important to have a natural doe age structure. If there aren't mature does in the population (which show up in the harvests) problems will arise.

The takeaway is there are no set guidelines for doe harvests. Each property is a unique situation, and hard data is required to make harvest recommendation decisions.

 

[muddyboots]

My biggest complaint with doe harvest strategies is that almost NOONE has a clue on what is appropriate for a given property... because NOONE has actually taken the time to do an accurate herd density or age/sex ratio or fawn recruitment ratio.

An example... I have dozens of friends with properties in MS who have signed up on the DMAP program (which allows an individual to kill more than 3 or 5 (depending on unit) does per hunter per season). Universally, the state 'biologists', recommend exactly the same number of does to be killed... 1 per 40 to 50 acres under management. For some properties, that is inadequate... for most, that is FAR too excessive. And what's mindboggling... they continue to recommend the exact same number of does per acre to be killed year after year after year....

Those properties who do kill their recommended does (25 per 1000 acres annually) find the number of trophy bucks (130in or better) to decline drastically over time. At the same time, the quality of hunter experience (seeing seer) drastically declines over the years as well. Yet the same blanket doe harvest recommendations are put forth year after year after year. And when age structure of does killed are skewed towards 1.5 and 2.5yos... guess what... still 1 doe per 40 acres recommended.

Sure, it is easy to make a generalization. And hide that generalization under the guise of 'biology'.. but 95% of hunters are simply not capable of observing, collecting age/ weight/ lactation rates/ sex age trail camera ratios to make the correct doe harvest goals. And that's OK... its fine if the majority of hunters aren't that into it. Nothing wrong with that.... but don't fool yourself thinking you are doing the right thing by killing a bunch of does or not killing any does on your property unless you truly understand herd dynamics and year specific fawn recruitment... and willing to flip in a single year from aggressive doe harvests to conservative doe harvests.


Blah, blah, blah... too much diatribe.

As much as I HATE generalizations when it comes to doe harvests...for the average landowner who isn't into all the data collection, monitoring of habitat conditions, fawn recruitment, etc..... just kill 2 does for every buck killed. That will work for 80% of the properties out there.

Awesome. Way better then I could have said it.