Clarification on transport restrictions within CWD zone

[cbhunter]

I can understand the rules and what the words say, but some times I have to read it and make sure. I think it would be easier if they would word it better instead of the long winded and terminology they use.



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YEP, its clear as mud unless you read it and re read it a few times.

 

[fairchaser]

I can understand the rules and what the words say, but some times I have to read it and make sure. I think it would be easier if they would word it better instead of the long winded and terminology they use.



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YEP, its clear as mud unless you read it and re read it a few times.

Seems like a lot of legalese like IRS regs but sometimes it has to be worded like that to eliminate loop holes.
You could just say don't remove a deer from a positive county until it's rendered safe.

 

[AT Hiker]

So this sounds like the early Aug hunt cannot be a earn a buck, correct?


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[fairchaser]

So this sounds like the early Aug hunt cannot be a earn a buck, correct?


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Correct, since does are off the table, but a positive buck will get you another buck tag.

 

[TNGunsmoke]

So this sounds like the early Aug hunt cannot be a earn a buck, correct?


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August hunt is antlered deer only.

 

[Bone Collector]

I predict these rules will unfortunately be broken countless times going forward.

that is an understatement......

 

[TheLBLman]

So this sounds like the early Aug hunt cannot be a earn a buck, correct?

As I understand it, one could simply kill 2 bucks during August.
Then he could kill a couple antlerless deer during early archery season.
He would then be given two (2) additional buck tags.

Or, if he doesn't want to archery hunt, the muzzleloader & rifle seasons will be opening earlier, allowing plenty of extra new opportunity to kill antlerless deer pre-rut.
This is basically a 4-buck limit for the more avid hunters, perhaps without their killing any more antlerless deer than they normally have done anyway.

Also, if the hunter doesn't want to participate in the August hunt, he can simply kill a couple antlerless deer (like a doe & a fawn) the first week of early archery, then have a 4-buck limit for the remaining months of "deer season".

So, rather than increasing the doe kill, this "earn-a-buck" scheme may potentially make the doe kill even less than it would have been without it!

Since so many people have been "scared" out of eating venison, many who would regularly kill "a" doe (or "a" buck) are no longer willing to kill "a" doe, and will only kill "a" buck for the antlers. And if they're still eating their venison, how many will need to kill more deer than just those 4 bucks?

My reference to "a" is because the majority of TN's deer hunters kill less than one (1) deer annually, whether that deer is a buck or a doe.
Thus, the majority will just stop shooting doe, as they've never been much interested in killing more than 1 or 2 deer annually, and that was when they were actually eating their venison!

With the most avid hunters (those who already kill multiple deer annually) now having easy access to 4 buck tags, I can certainly see the buck kill going up, but the doe kill is most likely going to plummet.

Then with a faster-growing deer density (from the reduced doe kill), CWD has an increase in carriers, half of which become the next year's dispersing bucks, dispersing greater distances than their older sires' rut ranges? Doesn't that help spread CWD even farther than rutting bucks might?

 

[TheLBLman]

I'll be the first to say there are 3 sides to every coin, and exactly where reality falls may be anywhere in between the worse-case & the best case scenarios. But, imo, in terms of CWD, the increased buck limits with the "earn-a-buck" will make little difference and may even be counter-productive. CWD issues aside, and just in terms of sound deer management, the increase in buck hunting is a disaster?

But flip the coin, there may be so many people simply quitting deer hunting (in these areas) within a 2 or 3 years, that these regs become totally irrelevant, and government sharp-shooters will have to be contracted to kill the antlerless deer hunters once did.

What if the number of deer hunters decreases over 90% in these areas?
After this year's slaughter of 2 1/2 & older bucks, people being afraid to eat venison, many will quit deer hunting, many will decide to deer hunt outside the CWD zone?
If I personally had been hunting in these CWD counties, this year would be my last, not because of CWD, but because of those regs.
Why do most deer hunters deer hunt?
The real hunting disaster won't begin until next year in 2020.

 

[TheLBLman]

I believe the transport restriction are very good.
But do agree these rules will be frequently broken both from ignorance and intentionally.

 

[fairchaser]

For clarification, it takes two does turned in for testing to earn one buck tag. Also, there will be some hunters on the margin that may give up deer hunting due to CWD and new rules. But with nothing really to replace it, after people get used to the new rules, it will soon be business as usual with a new normal. This is what's happened in other areas. Can any of us seriously see ourselves sitting in our living rooms on a beautiful fall day during the rut? I can't.

 

[TheLBLman]

. . . . . with nothing really to replace it, after people get used to the new rules, it will soon be business as usual with a new normal. . . . . Can any of us seriously see ourselves sitting in our living rooms on a beautiful fall day during the rut? I can't.

I certainly don't see the "business as usual with a new normal", but I do agree, most of us are not going to be sitting in our living rooms on a beautiful fall day during the rut!

Here's the "new normal" I see regarding deer hunters' behaviors with the new CWD zone:

1) Little change in 2019, other than more will kill more bucks, but at the expense of fewer does killed.

2019 will be the last year many who reside in this zone do most their deer hunting within it.
Knowing this, many will in fact kill 4 bucks, as they now have no reason to give a pass to any promising young buck.

2) For the similar reasons some might have gone to Canada and other states in times past, many resident deer hunters within the zone will simply do most their future deer hunting "outside" this zone (starting in 2020).

Perhaps in the short-term, they won't have to travel far, maybe just to the next county, or maybe just to an adjoining state where the prospects of killing bucks older than 2 1/2 may remain, as they will no longer be there within the "zone".
Again, why do most deer hunters deer hunt if they don't eat the venison?
P.S. It is not for the next year's crop of yearling bucks.

3) Some will entirely quit deer hunting, and/or deer hunt relatively little.
THIS may be the biggest aspect of the "new norm" among today's deer hunters living within the new zone.

But stay in their living rooms on a beautiful fall day during the rut?!?
No way!

Most of these will simply switch their former deer-hunting times to other outdoor adventures!
These "other" adventures will include waterfowl hunting, small-game, fishing, etc.

 

[fairchaser]

I'm curious why you think there will not be much change in 2019 LBLman but all the big changes in behavior are in 2020? Isn't the cat out of the bag? Tell me you don't believe all the big bucks will be killed and there won't be any left next year. No one group of hunters tries to kill big bucks more than Ames and in spite of the quality of hunters and the hundreds of hunting hours spent by each hunter, we never get them all. In places up north such as Wisconsin where CWD has been around a long time, you don't even hear it discussed anymore. There is an adjustment for sure and we all feel gut punched but deer hunting will continue and big mature bucks will still be there and some will get killed. I believe some things will be different for sure but life goes on and people will adjust. If people are still willing to hunt in 2019, then I expect they will continue.

 

[TheLBLman]

I'm curious why you think there will not be much change in 2019 LBLman
but all the big changes in behavior are in 2020?

Without writing a book, I can only touch on what I've been looking at here, but,
It's really quite simple:
SO FAR, going into the 2019 deer season, none of the changes have yet effected the standing deer herd.
To keep things easier, let's mainly just think in terms of Fayette County & the Ames Hunting Club.

IMO, there will be more "big" bucks (think 3 1/2 & older ones) available for killing ("harvest" if you prefer) at the beginning of the 2019 deer season than there was at the beginning of the 2018 deer season.
Why?
Because for many years, more and more hunters have been trending towards targeting 3 1/2 & older bucks, and we have had a simple 2-buck limit.

In large part because of that 2-buck limit (at least outside Ames), and because most area hunters also were eating venison, most hunters were killing about the same (or more) female deer as were killing buck deer.

We hunt for a myriad of reasons, but the main reason most hunters in Fayette County will be deer hunting will be for the opportunity to take "trophy" antlers.
But with the new "mindsets" of "kill them all" and "trophy velvet", the standards constituting a "shooter" buck will suddenly go much lower for most hunters.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Fayette County buck harvest actually doubles in 2019 over 2018, and that increase will come mostly from the 2 1/2-yr-old age class.

Relative to the past few years, there will be only a fraction as many 3 1/2 & older bucks "left standing" going into the 2020 deer season.
There may be more female deer and yearling bucks, but with fewer hunters wanting to kill a doe for the table, and even fewer seeing a yearling buck as having "trophy" antlers, a growing number of Fayette County deer hunters will be "done", at least "done" deer hunting within these CWD counties.
"Done" also may be the non-resident hunters who flooded into the public WMA's in 2019, but don't come back in 2020.

Some will just go elsewhere to deer hunt, some will just start hunting other game (like waterfowl) or start fishing during the time they once deer hunted. Just saying, this will not happen much until 2020.

Tell me you don't believe all the big bucks will be killed and there won't be any left next year.

Of course not.
But I do believe reality will be closer to that than you can imagine.
Let's just say the county has been killing 50% of all the living bucks annually that were 3 1/2 or older.
In 2019, that 50% could easily increase to 85%.
So going into the 2020 season, instead of roughly 50% remaining, we have roughly 15% remaining.
15 divided by 50 = 30% as many "older" bucks available in 2020 vs 2019.

Cutting the opportunity for a 3 1/2 or older buck by 70% is enough to make many hunters stop hunting Fayette County?

Keep in mind, we have 95 counties in TN, but Fayette is one of only 8 of these 95 counties that will allow firearms to be used during the August "velvet" buck hunt.
There will be a significant number of TN deer hunters in those other 87 counties eager to travel to those 8 counties allowing the hunting with a gun instead of a bow. These will mainly be "new" summertime hunters who did not participate in the initial 2018 "velvet" hunt (which was archery only in all counties).
Regarding the 2019 "velvet" hunt, "Participation" will sky-rocket in Fayette County.

And, it will not just be TN resident hunters coming to join you.
Since this is all about "trophy" antlers and nothing to do with eating venison,
few of the hunters have concern over any deer they kill having CWD,
other than many just might prefer a buck they kill to have it,
since they could then go kill yet another one as a "bonus".

Think about this.
In 2018, with the ideal that "velvet" is somehow a unique "trophy"
Tennessee put the wheels in motion to make TN a "trophy" destination state for these unique trophy "velvet" bucks.
There were relatively few "takers" because the information just didn't get out quickly enough, and, it was an "archery only" hunt.
But now, Fayette County is a "trophy" destination county, since you can use a gun instead of a bow, unlike 87 of TN's 95 counties.

Of course, the majority of TN's deer hunters may never see much merit in summertime "velvet" buck hunting.
But if only a tiny percentage of nationwide hunters in other states find this appealing,
the good ole days of quality deer hunting in Fayette County become long gone?

No one group of hunters tries to kill big bucks more than Ames and in spite of the quality of hunters and the hundreds of hunting hours spent by each hunter, we never get them all.

But your assumption has more to do with the price of beans than anything at all about your county's deer herd (and hunter) dynamics?

Would you agree that less than 10% of the bucks killed in Fayette County would score the Ames minimum score for being "club legal" at the Ames Hunting Club?

One could easily point out that most of the bucks Ames members pass up would be killed outside of Ames boundaries?

And Ames is a big hunting club with about 20,000 acres of prime deer habitat?

Thing is, even with 20,000 acres, Ames only amounts to about 4% of Fayette County's land mass.
What about the other 96%, some of it being "public" hunting lands?

Also, will Ames "accept" the 4-buck (or higher) limit, or have much different criteria than "statewide" or "countywide"?

If Ames LOWERS it's standards to "ANY" buck instead of just those scoring over 120 B&C, allows 2 bucks to be killed via rifle during August, increase the Ames buck limit from 2 to 4-plus, will the buck harvest greatly increase there as well?
Well, at least you don't have to worry about the general public over-running you there.
But most hunters are not that fortunate?

If people are still willing to hunt in 2019, then I expect they will continue.

Maybe at Ames.
Actually, I agree with you, just think most will be hunting something other than deer,
or doing more of their deer hunting "outside" the CWD zone.

And lastly, should the Ames Deer Hunting Club adopt "same as countywide deer regs" for 2019
what happens to membership renewals come 2020?

Geez, I still ended up writing the preface to my book.

 

[fairchaser]

Thanks for that long explanation LBLman. I don't think hunters will be quite that analytical about the deer herd and what others may or may not do. They will go hunt when they can and will shoot what they want. Once they kill a couple deer or maybe two good bucks and a doe or two they will call it good. They may hunt for that giant for the rest of the season if they have a tag. Most will go out without seeing that giant and call the season successful. I know a few Ames hunters will move on to other areas or even give up hunting. The majority will stay the course and adjust. Unless the deer herd falls off a cliff and it could, I don't see a whole lot changing.

 

[fairchaser]

I don't know yet, because the new rules aren't out but I believe Ames will stay the course with a slight decrease in the minimums. The buck limit of two will remain as is, as will the requirement to kill does. This will change the age structure for bucks as will CWD. The studies have shown that the herd will get younger. Will Ames have the quality and quantity of older bucks going forward? No! Does that cause some hunters to seek other opportunities? Some will. Could this be a microcosm of what happens across the zone? Yes, but on a more limited scale since Ames represents and specific type of hunter. There is still a lot unknown.

 

[TheLBLman]

I don't know yet, because the new rules aren't out but I believe Ames will stay the course with a slight decrease in the minimums. The buck limit of two will remain as is, as will the requirement to kill does.

That's what I had assumed, as I believe Dr. Houston and the Ames leadership understands that if they adopted the "countywide" regs they would have only a few members renewing come 2020.

Over the past couple decades in particular, the majority of deer hunters have embraced what I will call biologically sound deer management, which is somewhat different from traditional quantity buck-only target production. That's "target" in terms of shooting targets which are young buck deer.

I believe a majority of deer hunters have now transitioned from a "quantity" to a "quality" mindset, not just in terms of the deer herd, but in terms of their complete hunting experiences. Ames should always have more to offer in terms of the latter, and I don't see Ames' current leadership killing the geese laying their golden eggs under any guise of combating CWD.

IMO, these TWRA reg changes in the "CWD" zone remain more about TWRA's desire to increase target production, increase non-resident license sales, than about fighting CWD. Exception is in regard to the transportation restrictions which I applaud, even though they may make little difference in fighting the spread.

I'm saying much of this in the context of so many CWD experts emphasizing the need to reduce the deer density (to reduce the spread). Ongoing deer density can only be reduced by focusing on the doe harvest. Even under "normal" circumstances, GREATLY increasing the buck hunting opportunities, particularly with more effective weapons (even without increasing the buck limits), GREATLY increases the buck harvest.

But, increasing the buck harvest has been taken light years farther now (in this "zone) by having an August "velvet" buck firearm hunt.
Add to this TWRA's "conversion" of the former very best "archery only" hunting days (late October - early November) to gun-hunting days.

I know you will counter there was little participation when this "velvet" hunt began last year (August 2018), but this unprecedented announcement was only made right before the hunt, and it was "archery" only. I suspect most hunters only heard about it after it had occurred.

Going to be different this year.
Not only do hunters have advance notice to make their plans, but a much larger segment will be interested now that it's not limited to "archery only".

 

[TheLBLman]

There are 8 other states bordering Tennessee.
Do any of them have a summertime (AUGUST) "trophy velvet" buck hunt?

The closest to this type of hunt I'm aware is the Kentucky "statewide" archery season opening ("either-sex") on September 1st.
There are lots of non-resident "trophy" buck hunters drawn to KY just for that VERY limited opportunity to kill a "velvet" buck.
Ironically, the majority of Resident KY deer hunters are not interested in it.

Keep in mind most bucks at this latitude seem to "shed" their velvet around the 1st week of September.
So not only is KY's "velvet" opportunity very limited, but if a hunter kills "a" buck in KY's early archery season,
that hunter may NOT kill another buck that year in KY.
One buck, and done, in Kentucky,
THE State that has become the national role model for simple, yet effective, biologically sound deer management.
P.S. I personally prefer a 2-buck limit, but cannot dispute the 1-buck limit's effectiveness in increasing the doe harvest.

So, if I were a guy in any of the surrounding states, I could now go to Fayette County, TN and kill 2 "velvet" bucks with a rifle.
Even better, if I want to come back in October & November, I would still have the option of killing at least 2 more bucks in TN (with a rifle)!

About the same money & logistics involved, but where would most non-residents get the most bang for their bucks?
P.S. That's what this is all about.

Ames' members are somewhat "protected" from the bloodbath of buck killing that's about to occur county-wide with the 2019 deer season.

Those who will be hurt the most are TN resident hunters who mainly hunt public lands.
Going to be much more "crowded" than anything we saw in the 1980's & 90's.

With the assumption that CWD will soon be found in the counties bordering this CWD "zone",
we're on a trajectory of greatly expanding this "zone" by 2020 (if not sooner!).
Highly unlikely Natchez Trace WMA will not be within the "zone" by 2020?
Possibly the entire State of TN will be under these same or similar regs within a couple years?

Bottom line is this:

Even though antlerLESS deer have virtually no limit in Fayette County, TN
MOST hunters have always preferred to kill bucks simply because bucks have antlers.
Even if the antlers are small, most hunters have still preferred killing bucks with antlers.

With most hunters (in the "zone") now being scared to eat venison, fewer of their friends wanting it as a food item, you are going to see the doe harvest nose-dive. And this reduced doe harvest may be driven as much by the increased buck-hunting opportunities as the food scare.

The end result is most hunters (in the zone) will be "buck only" deer hunting,
and going back to the "shooter buck standards" of the 1980's.

Even many of the best-antlered YEARLING bucks are going to get whacked in the August velvet hunt.
The average age of harvested velvet bucks will be exactly 2 1/2 years old,
and promoting the hunting of these "trophy" velvet bucks (again, most killed will be 2 1/2) will ongoing insure very few bucks living to 3 1/2.

Kinda like the 1980's & 1990's TN deer hunting when huge numbers of non-residents flocked to TN when we had a 4-buck gun limit?
Well, by some measures, we had an 11-buck limit back then, but most non-residents could come kill 4 with a gun then, just as they now can once again.

My hope is much of the CWD fear-mongering will subside, more hunters will realize eating venison remains safe, even healthier than store-bought chicken. Maybe, just maybe, we will find better ways of dealing with it before we destroy sound deer management and quality deer hunting experiences.

I predict CWD will soon be discovered in West KY,
and many will be shocked at how differently the KDFWR handles the discovery than has TWRA.

How so? I can envision a "0" buck limit, but by killing "a" doe first, a hunter can "earn" 1 buck tag.
Maybe, a hunter will be allowed to kill multiple does in a current year, to earn multiple buck tags for use in future years.
We might even see KY allow up to 2 bucks annually, for those who "earn" them by killing 2 antlerLESS deer FIRST.
Pure speculation, don't need an angry mob coming to Frankfort in protest.
But I do NOT see KDFWR putting out hunting regs that INCREASE the ongoing deer density by reducing doe harvest,
which is exactly what TWRA has done.

 

[Boll Weevil]

I can only speak for myself and my neighbors (who also manage large tracts), ain't no one doing anything different in terms of harvest plans. We'll still manage for 5.5 year or older bucks and only kill enough does based on summer census, size/number of doe groups, fawn recruitment, and adequate meat in our freezers. Of the people I've spoken with, not a single landowner has said they're doing anything different and I wouldn't be surprised if other managed properties are the same.

We've all managed way too long and growing some real dandies to just blow it in a single season. Will CWD get an occasional old buck...yep...and it's likely been that way for years. But good grief we can only kill/eat so many does and old bucks aren't exactly keen on waltzing about in broad daylight (except on beanfields in the summer).

 

[fairchaser]

I can only speak for myself and my neighbors (who also manage large tracts), ain't no one doing anything different in terms of harvest plans. We'll still manage for 5.5 year or older bucks and only kill enough does based on summer census, size/number of doe groups, fawn recruitment, and adequate meat in our freezers. Of the people I've spoken with, not a single landowner has said they're doing anything different and I wouldn't be surprised if other managed properties are the same.

We've all managed way too long and growing some real dandies to just blow it in a single season. Will CWD get an occasional old buck...yep...and it's likely been that way for years. But good grief we can only kill/eat so many does and old bucks aren't exactly keen on waltzing about in broad daylight (except on beanfields in the summer).

I respect that decision Boll weevil. Are your tracts in the middle of the hot zone yet and what is the prevalence rate on your older bucks. I guess what I'm asking is whether at some point, will there be any 5.5 year old bucks and if so, will they have anything on their heads to speak of? From my experience at Ames and from what I've heard the experts say bucks that age are going to be extremely rare and if they live that long they will have the disease. I wonder too if CWD melts the antlers off bucks even though they don't appear to be symptomatic.

 

[TheLBLman]

I can only speak for myself and my neighbors (who also manage large tracts), ain't no one doing anything different in terms of harvest plans. We'll still manage for 5.5 year or older bucks . . . . . Of the people I've spoken with, not a single landowner has said they're doing anything different . . . .

We've all managed way too long and growing some real dandies to just blow it in a single season. . . . . . . . . old bucks aren't exactly keen on waltzing about in broad daylight (except on beanfields in the summer).

Your last sentence alludes to what the summer "velvet" buck hunt is all about?
Define "large" tract?

I often see bachelor groups of bucks summertime feeding in bean fields several miles from where they shift their summertime range to their fall range (typically in October).
How many managed tracts have perimeter boundaries even a single mile from the tract's center?

IMO, you would generally need at least a thousand acres under the management for which you speak,
to not have it mostly derailed by what the neighbors are doing.
An old "rule of thumb" has been 10,000 acres.

I do agree with you that most "managed" properties will continue to do their best with biologically sound deer harvests.
This will especially be the case when it's mostly local hunters hunting their own land,
and plan to hunt their land in subsequent years following 2019.

But, many (perhaps most) tracts of land are not really "managed" so much as they are simply "hunted" via "statewide" regs, and this year, a gun season opens in August instead of November.

How much of any particular buck's summertime vs. fall vs. rut ranges overlap
with both "un-managed" tracts, as well as with some "public" lands?

Of course, I would do just what you're planning if in your boots.