Chamber throat question

[Tenntrapper]

I recently picked up a '03 Remington 700 in 223. Just started messing around with working up some loads. I used the Hornady COAL guage tool thing to come up with a coal.....see what was available.
Anyway, the measurements imply that it has a very short throat. With one bullet (Nosler) just loading to their coal would put me .030" into the lands. Another bullet (speer) would put me .012" into the lands using speer data. These aren't long bullets. Should also note that both data's above are well short of max coal. Also, loaded some factory ammo in it yesterday...it was a little tight closing the bolt. Not bad, but enough to notice. So my question is...is there a way to lengthen the throat? Or do I just need to except that it's short, and load accordingly?
Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Omega]

A chamber cast may be in order, then you can ream out accordingly if it's short.

 

[rifle02]

There are throating tools that can be rented. They are hand turned. A light touch and careful feel is in order as it is easy to lengthen too much.

 

[skipperbrown]

If you have the tools, take a once fired case, drill the primer hole and thread it for your OAL gauge. Youtube has the bit diameter and threads info. This will give you a little better measurement than using the Hornady modified case. My fired .308 cases are .002 longer at the shoulder than unfired. Then run your throat depth tests again using at least 3 bullets from the same lot for the bullets you will be using the most. It's not that uncommon for match bullets in the same box to measure .003 difference to the ogive. When you push the bullet into the throat, "feel" it with a cleaning rod pushed in from the muzzle doing a push/pull to make sure you are in the lands and lock the gauge and take your measurement. 3 hands help. Document your findings. I'd recommend doing it 4 or 5 times with each bullet to come up with a good average.

Before getting into a DIY fix, you may want to consider sending the gun back to Remington for inspection. If you are sticking bullets with minimum OAL, I'm sure Remington would like to see the rifle and fix it on their nickel. Hitting the lands .030 before the bullet should could result in overpressure on a hot load and Remington would prefer that not happen. I would also expect that you should be sticking bullets in the chamber and getting a nice shower of powder when you open the bolt on an unfired round if the .030 over length is true. Are factory loads jamming or touching the lands too?

I'm really surprised you are experiencing this. Remington barrels are well known for having really, really, really long throats. My .308 Rem throat is so long that a 175g SMK almost falls out of the case when I try to measure it. Make darn sure your chamber is squeaky clean before measuring and you aren't experiencing a carbon ring. If you have a friend with a bore scope, take your rifle and a six pack over for a visit. A visual will rule out carbon ring or a burr left over from reaming. Bad reamer jobs do happen and it has happened to me.

OK, back to the DIY fix: Once you are sure of the throat depth, you can buy a throat hand reamer from Brownells and very carefully ream out the throat to your desired depth. Go slow and use a lot of oil. I think the tool is about $75-100??? If cutting into the lands makes you a little queasy, a decent smith should be able to do it for you for less than $100. I would request a throat depth of at least .050 so you can load out to the lands if you desire and the cartridges will still fit in the magazine. Good luck!

 

[Tenntrapper]

If you have the tools, take a once fired case, drill the primer hole and thread it for your OAL gauge. Youtube has the bit diameter and threads info. This will give you a little better measurement than using the Hornady modified case. My fired .308 cases are .002 longer at the shoulder than unfired. Then run your throat depth tests again using at least 3 bullets from the same lot for the bullets you will be using the most. It's not that uncommon for match bullets in the same box to measure .003 difference to the ogive. When you push the bullet into the throat, "feel" it with a cleaning rod pushed in from the muzzle doing a push/pull to make sure you are in the lands and lock the gauge and take your measurement. 3 hands help. Document your findings. I'd recommend doing it 4 or 5 times with each bullet to come up with a good average.

Before getting into a DIY fix, you may want to consider sending the gun back to Remington for inspection. If you are sticking bullets with minimum OAL, I'm sure Remington would like to see the rifle and fix it on their nickel. Hitting the lands .030 before the bullet should could result in overpressure on a hot load and Remington would prefer that not happen. I would also expect that you should be sticking bullets in the chamber and getting a nice shower of powder when you open the bolt on an unfired round if the .030 over length is true. Are factory loads jamming or touching the lands too?

I'm really surprised you are experiencing this. Remington barrels are well known for having really, really, really long throats. My .308 Rem throat is so long that a 175g SMK almost falls out of the case when I try to measure it. Make darn sure your chamber is squeaky clean before measuring and you aren't experiencing a carbon ring. If you have a friend with a bore scope, take your rifle and a six pack over for a visit. A visual will rule out carbon ring or a burr left over from reaming. Bad reamer jobs do happen and it has happened to me.

OK, back to the DIY fix: Once you are sure of the throat depth, you can buy a throat hand reamer from Brownells and very carefully ream out the throat to your desired depth. Go slow and use a lot of oil. I think the tool is about $75-100??? If cutting into the lands makes you a little queasy, a decent smith should be able to do it for you for less than $100. I would request a throat depth of at least .050 so you can load out to the lands if you desire and the cartridges will still fit in the magazine. Good luck!

Thank you for the detailed "how to", much appreciated. That said, I've used several different bullets from each lot....and brand. Still coming up short, compared to the load data...in other words, if I use their coal with their bullet, it will be jammed in the lands.
You mentioned a carbon ring...this may be the case. The rifle has a manufacturer date of 2003. I will give it another good cleaning and try again, see what happens.
Thanks again for the info.

 

[skipperbrown]

What weight bullets are you running?

 

[Tenntrapper]

What weight bullets are you running?

The two I'm trying are the Nosler 64g bonded solid base, and the speer 52g bthp (target match).

 

[skipperbrown]

Those bullets aren't that long and should fit easily into the chamber. If you are running 77g I'd be inclined to think you might run out of room in a tight custom chamber.

If this is a Rem factory barrel, I'd call and talk to them about it.

 

[Tenntrapper]

Those bullets aren't that long and should fit easily into the chamber. If you are running 77g I'd be inclined to think you might run out of room in a tight custom chamber.

If this is a Rem factory barrel, I'd call and talk to them about it.

I scrubbed it good again...
Nosler's coal for that bullet is 2.175, I'm in the lands at 2.140.
Speer's data says 2.200, I'm in the lands at 2.221...i think I can work with this, or at least start and see how it goes.
I remeasured with both bullets again, using 5 different bullets from each brand...then averaged.

 

[TiminTN]

The OAL given in manuals is what fit in their pressure test barrel. The load manual and powder pressures are worked up at their given OAL. If yours is shorter means the case capacity is less and should not use max loads given powder capacity difference. Concentrate on suggested powder charges and less on OAL. How could they know every gun makers throat length? Your doing fine. Paying attention, it will pay off.
To answer your question on freebore, absolutely you can lengthen it. There are throating reamers for every bore size. I lengthened one on a Savage 223 in 7 twist so he could seat 80 grain Amax out where the bearing surface did not pass the neck/shoulder of his case. Huge improvement.

 

[rifle02]

Can not speak to that caliber but I know from experience that 308 Remington Barrels have extremely long throats. I once had a customer request that I shorten it I took one turn of thread recut the chamber remounted the barrel. At 16 threads per inch that made the throat 062 in shorter. He still could not suitably get his bullets close enough to the lands. That is really long. I believe it may have been a lawyer idea. As it was a target rifle with a factory barrel.

 

[MUP]

Can not speak to that caliber but I know from experience that 308 Remington Barrels have extremely long throats. I once had a customer request that I shorten it I took one turn of thread recut the chamber remounted the barrel. At 16 threads per inch that made the throat 062 in shorter. He still could not suitably get his bullets close enough to the lands. That is really long. I believe it may have been a lawyer idea. As it was a target rifle with a factory barrel.

My inexpensive Model 710 Rem 30-06 has .150" jump to the lands with my handloads. It's akrit, but that's a long jump!

 

[GOODWIN]

Like others stated, I'm really surprised at this. Most factory throats are too long. I'd send to Remington

 

[DaveB]

I will give it another good cleaning and try again, see what happens.

1. Use "Wipe Out" foaming bore cleaner. This is just to save some time for the next step. If there was that much carbon your bullet would not be in the lands.
2. No Remington barrel could leave the factory so far out of spec. Even with Rem QC failures, I just do not see it and as noted above Rem throats are generally long. I would take it to a gunsmith. Rem is bankrupt. Someone unscrewed the barrel and put it back on using the eyeball method. Go ahead, ask me how I know this.

 

[Tenntrapper]

1. Use "Wipe Out" foaming bore cleaner. This is just to save some time for the next step. If there was that much carbon your bullet would not be in the lands.
2. No Remington barrel could leave the factory so far out of spec. Even with Rem QC failures, I just do not see it and as noted above Rem throats are generally long. I would take it to a gunsmith. Rem is bankrupt. Someone unscrewed the barrel and put it back on using the eyeball method. Go ahead, ask me how I know this.

Wipe Out is what I used on it. I don't think it is carbon buildup. Never thought about the barrel being taken off. I've kinda put it on the back burner for now. Considering the rifle is 20 yrs old, and Remington's situation, sending it back probably won't happen. I might try a gunsmith...or heck, may just have it rebarreled. I have very little in this rifle..and throwing money at it to "fix" it just seems futile. If I'm going to throw money at it...might as well do it right. Plus, the factory barrel is a 12 twist...pretty limited on what I can shoot out of it. A rebarrel may be my best investment option.

 

[tug]

So far I see a discussion about a throat. I don't see any mention of a chamber gage. As in a 223 go gage and a no go gage. If your closing feels tight, it may have nothing to do with your throat and everything to do with where the shoulder is set in the chamber.

Weird situation.

 

[Tenntrapper]

So far I see a discussion about a throat. I don't see any mention of a chamber gage. As in a 223 go gage and a no go gage. If your closing feels tight, it may have nothing to do with your throat and everything to do with where the shoulder is set in the chamber.

Weird situation.

The very slight, occasional resistance has only been with a certain factory ammo....and it wasn't heavy enough to be a concern. I've used the Hornady headspace gauges to measure fired/unfired/sized, etc. Everything seems fine there.
This is just odd to me as I've never ran into one that I couldn't use published data for.

 

[markwondi]

Where you located? If you're local, I can give you a hand sorting out the issue.