Mineral and Corn
- Thread starter Rakkin6
- Start date
I agree, everybody forgets that half of a bucks dna comes from momma doe. I put out di-cal/phosphate, salt, trace and selenium. If that fawn is getting the right minerals prenatal and while nursing it'll be healthier and fight of diseases better. I despise high fence operations but,ask one of the cats that feed their families because of big antlers if it helps.
And, the flip side to that drivel is that I wouldn't care if the deer population went to nothing as long as the turkey population flourished.
Different strokes for different folks.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
I'm not BSK, but I think he would agree that the benefit is only extremely slight. Deer will seek plants to replete any mineral deficiencies they have naturally. And there is a 'potential for harm... enough that the argument can be made that the risks outweigh the very small benefit.
That being said, I DO run salt/ minerals on all my farms... simply for getting pictures in late summer and up until the bucks move to scrapes. But that's the only reason, I'm not kidding myself that I'm actually helping the deer themselves.
Good question .
BSK
Well-Known Member
Do minerals licked from a mineral lick actually do that? No evidence they do.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Corn left out in hot humid weather rapidly develops a mold that produces a toxic bioproduct called aflatoxin. Only tiny, tiny amounts of aflatoxin is deadly to turkeys (around 50 parts aflatoxin to a BILLION parts corn - so low you would never know the mold is there). Exact amounts required to kill a deer are unknown, but probably in excess of 500 parts per billion (still so low you would never be able to see it). How much does it take to make a deer sick? Depends on how sick. But if it is killing turkey it certainly can't be good for deer. And I've seen landowners kill turkeys by using corn spin feeders in the summer.
Salt licks have the benefit of killing most infectious agents (viruses/bacteria) because of the high saline environment. The salt crystals rupture the walls of the bacteria. However, the infectious prions that cause CWD have no cell walls. They are not even alive. They are simply an abnormally folded protein. And unfortunately, the high saline environment of a salt lick actually folds the prion protein more, making it more infectious.
BSK
Well-Known Member
High-fences see most of the results they do because their enclosed deer are much freer from the normal stresses of life than free-ranging deer. I've worked with high fences that do a lot of supplementation and ones that don't. Their results are about the same. Bigger, less stressed deer. Now that's discounting genetic manipulation. I've seen that too and the results can be scary.
BSK
Well-Known Member
I wish I could describe epigenetics in detail, but I cannot. It is an extremely complicated topic and as of yet, not a fully understood process. But in a nutshell, during times of physical/nutritional stress, proteins can become attached to an individuals DNA. As that DNA replicates, it carries the attached protein with it. These proteins can drastically alter the function of the DNA (preventing genes from turning on or off at the correct time). And since these proteins are attached to the DNA, they are heritable, and that's the critical part - they can be passed on to offspring.
Epigenetics was discovered while researching the effects of famine in Scandinavian countries. It seemed to be a strange coincidence that women who had experienced severe nutritional deficiencies during a famine, no matter how much later after the famine was over and how great their health was at the time of pregnancy, produced a much higher percentage of underperforming children (low birth weights, poor health through life), than women who had never experienced a famine. It was found that the periods of famine produced these epigenetic proteins that attached themselves to the women's DNA, and these proteins were passed down to their children, causing poor health and underdevelopment.
A few years back, in a university study (may have been Univ of SD), researchers looked at the white-tailed deer of the Black Hills versus white-tailed deer farther east in the state in the Plains. It was noted deer in the Plains were much larger in body and antler than deer from the Black Hills. Wanting to show these differences were caused just by differences in food quality, deer captured from the Black Hills were moved to a facility in the Plains, and raised side by side with local deer (although the two groups were not allowed to interbreed). The researchers assumed that as soon as the Black Hills deer had been eating the same food sources as the Plains deer, and living in the same environment, the differences between the two groups would vanish. But they didn't. At least not for several years. It took at least 3 years before Black Hills does bred to Black Hills bucks began growing close in size to the local Plain deer (and they never caught up in body size). This is where the idea came about that a does health - long before she becomes pregnant - is such an important factor in producing bucks that can express their full potential at maturity. However, although their observations were correct, their theory on why it took so long for the Black Hills deer to start catching up to the Plains deer was wrong. It wasn't just the condition of doe before pregnancy. It was epigenetics. Due to the lower nutrition and higher stress life of living in the Black Hills, DNA altering proteins were attaching themselves to the Black Hills deer' genetics and that was being passed on to their offspring, lower the offspring's life-long growth potential.
As far as I know, the Miss. State is the only university currently studying the role of epigenetics in white-tailed deer, and their finding some fascinating things.
But epigenetics is probably a major contributing factor into why sudden improvements in herd dynamics and habitat quality often DON'T produce the dramatic improvements in deer performance many landowners expect. It often takes many years - even decades - basically a number of generations of deer, to lose the negative influence of epigenetics on the local population.
Epigenetics was discovered while researching the effects of famine in Scandinavian countries. It seemed to be a strange coincidence that women who had experienced severe nutritional deficiencies during a famine, no matter how much later after the famine was over and how great their health was at the time of pregnancy, produced a much higher percentage of underperforming children (low birth weights, poor health through life), than women who had never experienced a famine. It was found that the periods of famine produced these epigenetic proteins that attached themselves to the women's DNA, and these proteins were passed down to their children, causing poor health and underdevelopment.
A few years back, in a university study (may have been Univ of SD), researchers looked at the white-tailed deer of the Black Hills versus white-tailed deer farther east in the state in the Plains. It was noted deer in the Plains were much larger in body and antler than deer from the Black Hills. Wanting to show these differences were caused just by differences in food quality, deer captured from the Black Hills were moved to a facility in the Plains, and raised side by side with local deer (although the two groups were not allowed to interbreed). The researchers assumed that as soon as the Black Hills deer had been eating the same food sources as the Plains deer, and living in the same environment, the differences between the two groups would vanish. But they didn't. At least not for several years. It took at least 3 years before Black Hills does bred to Black Hills bucks began growing close in size to the local Plain deer (and they never caught up in body size). This is where the idea came about that a does health - long before she becomes pregnant - is such an important factor in producing bucks that can express their full potential at maturity. However, although their observations were correct, their theory on why it took so long for the Black Hills deer to start catching up to the Plains deer was wrong. It wasn't just the condition of doe before pregnancy. It was epigenetics. Due to the lower nutrition and higher stress life of living in the Black Hills, DNA altering proteins were attaching themselves to the Black Hills deer' genetics and that was being passed on to their offspring, lower the offspring's life-long growth potential.
As far as I know, the Miss. State is the only university currently studying the role of epigenetics in white-tailed deer, and their finding some fascinating things.
But epigenetics is probably a major contributing factor into why sudden improvements in herd dynamics and habitat quality often DON'T produce the dramatic improvements in deer performance many landowners expect. It often takes many years - even decades - basically a number of generations of deer, to lose the negative influence of epigenetics on the local population.
JCDEERMAN
Well-Known Member
Very, very good stuff.
woodsman04
Well-Known Member
"Supplemental" wildlife feeding is bad altogether. Deer and turkeys were here long before we thought we had to feed them dang corn.
Alabama legalized baiting for deer a couple years ago. It's all about money, they don't care about the resources
Alabama legalized baiting for deer a couple years ago. It's all about money, they don't care about the resources
Lincoln Co Archer
Well-Known Member
Thanks BSK for taking the time to post on this subject.
DoubleRidge
Well-Known Member
See post #11 and #14 for an explanation of why every deer in KY and TX isn't dead
Stumpsitter
Well-Known Member
I have never figured out why anyone would put corn out when there are plenty of things for deer to eat other than just to get pictures. As far as salt licks, I have done several different things.
I have used 1/2 a pail of lucky buck and a Trophy rock. Just to get a spot started. After that it's a combination of stockman trace mineral, dicalcium phosphate, stockman regular salt & grape coolade or pink lemonade. The salt,trace, & di-cal will work by itself too. I've put salt blocks on stumps and had a lot of luck like that.
I have used 1/2 a pail of lucky buck and a Trophy rock. Just to get a spot started. After that it's a combination of stockman trace mineral, dicalcium phosphate, stockman regular salt & grape coolade or pink lemonade. The salt,trace, & di-cal will work by itself too. I've put salt blocks on stumps and had a lot of luck like that.
I also read an article describing "mineral stumps". That's essentially a tree that was cut or broken but the roots survive and sprout new growth. It's basically new twigs sprouting from already established tree roots. Apparently it is deer super food, offering more mineral AND protein than mineral licks or supplemental feeding. Certain trees are better than others, but once established supposedly the deer keep it nubbed so it lasts indefinitely.
I've seen these bushy little stumps in the woods before, but never realized their significance. Now I search for them. They are nature's mineral lick and corn pile all in one spot.
Personally, I'm increasingly becoming more of a mind that deer were here long before we were offering them corn and salt. Even though we might do so with good intentions, it's quite possible that we do more harm than good when we make attempts to enhance their health. I for one certainly am not smart enough to foresee unintended consequences, so maybe the best I can do is nothing at all. I'm still going to grow plots and manage habitat, but I think maybe I'll stop the minerals. I already don't feed or use corn.
I've seen these bushy little stumps in the woods before, but never realized their significance. Now I search for them. They are nature's mineral lick and corn pile all in one spot.
Personally, I'm increasingly becoming more of a mind that deer were here long before we were offering them corn and salt. Even though we might do so with good intentions, it's quite possible that we do more harm than good when we make attempts to enhance their health. I for one certainly am not smart enough to foresee unintended consequences, so maybe the best I can do is nothing at all. I'm still going to grow plots and manage habitat, but I think maybe I'll stop the minerals. I already don't feed or use corn.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Go take a look at a recent clear-cut or heavy thinning. Within the first year you'll find stumps with a dozen or more sprouts coming up off the rim, and most of them will show heavy browsing, depending upon the species. Unfortunately, deer seem to like the white oak stump sprouts the best, with red oak second. They rarely touch the poplar, and almost never touch the hickory, elm, sourwood and sweetgum stump sprouts.
This can lead to a real problem. If food sources are limited, and the timber harvest area small, deer will eat away all the oak stump sprouts but leave the popular, elm, and sourwood alone, allowing only those species to mature. You may cut an oak forest but get back only a poplar/elm/sourwood forest in return.
Shed Hunter
Well-Known Member
Do you think clear cuts like the ones done on Natchez Trace are a good idea for wildlife management?
BSK
Well-Known Member
I haven't seen them. But as long as enough area is clear-cut, so the existing deer density cannot eat away all the oak stump sprouts, then I'm not too worried. But I have to admit, I'm suggesting clear-cutting less and less frequently. I prefer thinnings, even fairly heavy thinnings. In my opinion, the perfect timber harvest for wildlife is just the red and white oaks 10" and under DBH left standing, and virtually NOTHING else. This provides maximum sunlight on the ground but leaves acorn bearing oaks standing to repopulate through acorn production. Usually, a good acorn year can produce so many oak seedlings the following growing season that deer cannot eat them all.
JCDEERMAN
Well-Known Member
Good to hear - That's close to what we are having done right now. Leaving ALL red oaks (not many of them in the cutting areas), and also leaving white oaks 12" and up DBH. Everything else will be cut and taken out.
I think it's important to note, that managing these areas AFTER a timber harvest are often overlooked. I'm guilty of it and now have to fix the problem I caused. IF your goal is natural food and cover all in one....and sustaining that type of environment for many years
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