Not shedding yet

DoubleRidge

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Found matching set 10pt sheds January 23rd.... early for our area....but this buck is one of the more mature bucks using our place.... plenty of does to chase and other bucks to compete with....week ago the trail cam pics show majority of other younger bucks still have both sides...one had shed one side recently.... majority of sheds we normally pick up are in Turkey season.
 

tnanh

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My place is in Perry and we were super hard hit with ehd summer and fall of 2019. Wonder if that had anything to do with the survivors shedding in late Dec. and early Jan. Here.
 

Mr.Bro

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Trying to hold on.
 

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BSK

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What are you considering stressors?
Primarily the stresses of the rut. Some bucks do a lot of chasing, some not so much. But mature bucks are known to lose as much as 30% of their entire body weight during the 6 weeks of the rut. Imagine going from 200 lbs to 140 lbs in 6 weeks due to exertion. That's an unimaginable level of physical stress. And just when they can least afford it, going into winter. In fact, in years where EHD has hit a local deer herd, I've seen more bucks die during the winter AFTER the EHD is over because they could not survive the combination of having to battle the disease and then the stresses of the rut.
 

BSK

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My place is in Perry and we were super hard hit with ehd summer and fall of 2019. Wonder if that had anything to do with the survivors shedding in late Dec. and early Jan. Here.
Oh yes! In fact, in areas hit hard with EHD, I've not only seen the rut serious delayed (by a couple of weeks), but high winter mortality after the rut.
 

Monk74

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I know bucks will get stressed during the rut here in TN, however we have no shortage of doe's. Our mild winters along with high doe populations probably contribute to very little early shedding. Unlike Montana where shedding starts around Christmas. Just a guess but, I'm gonna say not many bucks alive around here have saw weather like this for days on end. Antlers may be dropping like crazy right now or in the couple weeks to come. I'd consider this real stress on a deer.
 

tree_ghost

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I know bucks will get stressed during the rut here in TN, however we have no shortage of doe's. Our mild winters along with high doe populations probably contribute to very little early shedding. Unlike Montana where shedding starts around Christmas. Just a guess but, I'm gonna say not many bucks alive around here have saw weather like this for days on end. Antlers may be dropping like crazy right now or in the couple weeks to come. I'd consider this real stress on a deer.
My comment to my wife this evening reflected this same thought...time to put the miles on!
 

BSK

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I know bucks will get stressed during the rut here in TN, however we have no shortage of doe's. Our mild winters along with high doe populations probably contribute to very little early shedding. Unlike Montana where shedding starts around Christmas.
Monk74, as for Montana and other snowy states, bucks are much more genetically predisposed to shedding antlers early. This reduces the weight they have to carry through heavy snow. Even when northern deer are translocated south, they still shed antlers very early. gain, just a genetic adaptation to where they are from that gives a little extra survival advantage.

Actually, having a lot of does is one of the factors that increases stress on bucks. This is one of the reasons QDM philosophies stress keeping the adult sex ratio balanced. When sex ratios are balanced, the majority of the breeding is done by the most mature bucks - those larger bucks with the body weight that can handle the stress better. When there are far more does than bucks, all bucks are heavily engaged in breeding, even the youngest bucks. And the increased stress on young bucks can have life-long ramifications, reducing potential body weight and antler growth when they reach maturity.
 

Monk74

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Monk74, as for Montana and other snowy states, bucks are much more genetically predisposed to shedding antlers early. This reduces the weight they have to carry through heavy snow. Even when northern deer are translocated south, they still shed antlers very early. gain, just a genetic adaptation to where they are from that gives a little extra survival advantage.

Actually, having a lot of does is one of the factors that increases stress on bucks. This is one of the reasons QDM philosophies stress keeping the adult sex ratio balanced. When sex ratios are balanced, the majority of the breeding is done by the most mature bucks - those larger bucks with the body weight that can handle the stress better. When there are far more does than bucks, all bucks are heavily engaged in breeding, even the youngest bucks. And the increased stress on young bucks can have life-long ramifications, reducing potential body weight and antler growth when they reach lMany of the deer in middle TN were transplanted from Wisconsin.
Monk74, as for Montana and other snowy states, bucks are much more genetically predisposed to shedding antlers early. This reduces the weight they have to carry through heavy snow. Even when northern deer are translocated south, they still shed antlers very early. gain, just a genetic adaptation to where they are from that gives a little extra survival advantage.

Actually, having a lot of does is one of the factors that increases stress on bucks. This is one of the reasons QDM philosophies stress keeping the adult sex ratio balanced. When sex ratios are balanced, the majority of the breeding is done by the most mature bucks - those larger bucks with the body weight that can handle the stress better. When there are far more does than bucks, all bucks are heavily engaged in breeding, even the youngest bucks. And the increased stress on young bucks can have life-long ramifications, reducing potential body weight and antler growth when they reach maturity.
Oh ok, help me out. Many of the deer in TN were transplanted from Wisconsin but, hold there antlers here sometimes until March?
Also for the Montana deer, where a mature buck is 50,60,70 pounds heavier than here. Losing two to three pounds of antlers helps? I was taught that they were dropping shortly after Christmas because of much lower doe populations. Possibly all the doe's being bred. There's very little second rut,and no third rut. Doe's will not come into heat again and again like here.So with no doe's to breed and the increasing daylight after December 21st lowers testosterone levels causing release of osteoclasts that lead to shedding. That maybe way off base but the guys who taught been doing their thing a long time.
 

BSK

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Oh ok, help me out. Many of the deer in TN were transplanted from Wisconsin but, hold there antlers here sometimes until March?
Deer from all over the country were used to restock TN, especially from Michigan, Texas, and the Carolinas. However, take a DNA sample of any deer killed in TN today and you will find out it is a Odocoileus virginianus virginianus - a Southeastern Whitetail. The genetic lineages of transplanted deer were fairly rapidly washed out of the region by southeastern whitetails who are MUCH better genetically adapted to the environment. Deer in TN today may carry a few genetic markers showing they have a lineage back to one of the restocked deer, but TN deer today are purely Southeastern Whitetails.
 

BSK

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Also for the Montana deer, where a mature buck is 50,60,70 pounds heavier than here. Losing two to three pounds of antlers helps? I was taught that they were dropping shortly after Christmas because of much lower doe populations. Possibly all the doe's being bred. There's very little second rut,and no third rut. Doe's will not come into heat again and again like here.So with no doe's to breed and the increasing daylight after December 21st lowers testosterone levels causing release of osteoclasts that lead to shedding. That maybe way off base but the guys who taught been doing their thing a long time.
Yes, losing 3-5 pounds of antler makes a difference when pushing through 2 feet of snow, even if it is just a 1 or 2% increase in survival. That is how Natural Selection works. Any heritable advantage for survival gets passed on at a slightly higher rate, eventually becoming predominant in the population. Ask any endurance athlete if carry 3-5 extra pounds makes a difference in performance. It makes a huge difference over the long haul, and winter survival in the North is the ultimate endurance test.

I have not seen data suggesting northern females will not continue to cycle if they don't conceive, but that would make biological sense, as that would be a big expenditure of energy for an offspring that has a low probability of survival. Unlike Southern Whitetails, Northern Whitetails have their breeding timing much more genetically linked. A peak breeding in early November is essential for offspring survival. Breeding too early could mean a newborn fawn killed by a late spring snowstorm or cold snap. A fawn born too late in spring will not be able to put on the necessary body weight to survive their first winter. In the South breeding dates are not as genetically linked, providing enough fluidity that local deer adapting to local conditions can produce very unique breeding dates in pockets. I worked a big project in western GA where peak breeding was late October. Yet just two counties away in east AL peak breeding was mid-January. How these geographically close populations are able to maintain these very diverse breeding dates is somewhat of a mystery, considering how rapidly gene flow occurs in free-ranging whitetail populations.

I have a great deal of respect for many of the "older timer" field biologists. I've worked with many. Their observation skills are excellent. However, many attended university prior to the explosion in knowledge about white-tailed deer biology and social dynamics that has occurred over the last 20 years. In fact, more has been learned about white-tailed deer in the last 10 years than has been learned in all the years previous. If you aren't involved in the research end of biology, you don't hear much about this information. It doesn't "trickle down" well.
 
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BSK

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On the project I mentioned in western GA, we were working with an extremely large (14,000 acres) private property that had not been hunted in many years. Few deer alive on that property had experienced hunting pressure. The deer were "zoo deer." They wandered around in broad daylight and we would have to honk the horn to get them out of the roads so we could drive through. But because the the long period without being hunted, the population was well over capacity. Browse lines were everywhere, body weights were low even for mature deer, fawn survival was terrible, and buck antler growth per age-class the lowest I've ever seen aside from coastal deer. Peak breeding was in mid-November, but was a bit more strung out than it should have been. Almost all bucks had shed their antlers by late December, with some dropping mid-December, as soon as peak breeding was over.

Due to the long period of being unhunted, the local deer population was not suffering any of the social structure problems so common at the time. The adult sex ratio was very balanced and male/female age structures in fantastic shape. All of the problems in performance were linked to the nutritional and social stresses associated with over-population.

Although we attempted to lower the population, with such a large area and high deer density to work with, our best estimates were we only dropped the population density by about 5%. However, we VASTLY improved the habitat, which was full canopy hardwoods and pine plantations. Through timber thinning, the large-scale use of fire, and a small percentage of the property in food plots, over the next couple of years herd performance sky-rocketed. Body weights and fawn survival rose dramatically. Antler growth for mature bucks went from small stunted racks that looked like a yearling's antlers to some 150-caliber antlers. Peak breeding advanced into late October (which is what is normal for that region), and the breeding window shortened. Most interesting, bucks that had all shed by the end of December were now holding antlers until March. A few of the most mature bucks were dropping late February, but most held until March and some would still be holding antlers into the first week of April.

Experiments we conducted in Alabama with deer herd that had major social dynamics problems (low buck age structure and severe sex ratio problems), found that balancing the sex ratio, advancing the buck age structure reduced rut stress among bucks to accomplish the same thing - dramatically delaying antler drop. We saw this pattern throughout the Southeast so frequently, that we began to use antler drop timing as a pretty good anecdotal indicator of nutritional and social stresses within a local deer population.
 

Monk74

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Yes, losing 3-5 pounds of antler makes a difference when pushing through 2 feet of snow, even if it is just a 1 or 2% increase in survival. That is how Natural Selection works. Any heritable advantage for survival gets passed on at a slightly higher rate, eventually becoming predominant in the population. Ask any endurance athlete if carry 3-5 extra pounds makes a difference in performance. It makes a huge difference over the long haul, and winter survival in the North is the ultimate endurance test.

I have not seen data suggesting northern females will not continue to cycle if they don't conceive, but that would make biological sense, as that would be a big expenditure of energy for an offspring that has a low probability of survival. Unlike Southern Whitetails, Northern Whitetails have their breeding timing much more genetically linked. A peak breeding in early November is essential for offspring survival. Breeding too early could mean a newborn fawn killed by a late spring snowstorm or cold snap. A fawn born too late in spring will not be able to put on the necessary body weight to survive their first winter. In the South breeding dates are not as genetically linked, providing enough fluidity that local deer adapting to local conditions can produce very unique breeding dates in pockets. I worked a big project in western GA where peak breeding was late October. Yet just two counties away in east AL peak breeding was mid-January. How these geographically close populations are able to maintain these very diverse breeding dates is somewhat of a mystery, considering how rapidly gene flow occurs in free-ranging whitetail populations.

I have a great deal of respect for many of the "older timer" field biologists. I've worked with many. Their observation skills are excellent. However, many attended university prior to the explosion in knowledge about white-tailed deer biology and social dynamics that has occurred over the last 20 years. In fact, more has been learned about white-tailed deer in the last 10 years than has been learned in all the years previous. If you aren't involved in the research end of biology, you don't hear much about this information. It doesn't "trickle down" well.
Interesting, makes me wonder why peak breeding in northwest Montana is last 10 days of November?
 

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