Rimfire accuracy...

[Tenntrapper]

Maybe or maybe not, but the cheaper ammo, in some cases just will not chamber into a match chamber. It's a matter of the match chamber being the tighter, smaller dimension, while the factory ammo is apparently on the upper, larger side of the specification, like a press fit.

I assume then that tight match ammo in a loose chamber could cause similar accuracy issues?? Cheap ammo might actually shoot better?

 

[MUP]

I assume then that tight match ammo in a loose chamber could cause similar accuracy issues?? Cheap ammo might actually shoot better?

I don't know, I haven't tested that theory yet. LOL But, there are several at the matches that have regular factory rifles and are shooting match grade ammo in them. So far nothing notable that I've seen.

 

[Tenntrapper]

I don't know, I haven't tested that theory yet. LOL But, there are several at the matches that have regular factory rifles and are shooting match grade ammo in them. So far nothing notable that I've seen.

Weekend project??

 

[MUP]

Weekend project??

I have a couple of new .22s that I've wanted to test, 10-22s that I want to know how accurate they can be.

 

[DaveTN]

Machining and metallurgy. I doubt low cost rimfire rifles have certified steels used for the barrels, but I don't know that. Machining, tooling, coolants during machining, heat treat, harmonics. Change anything and you can change accuracy. Same thing with reloading, I just started reloading and I haven't got into reloading for accuracy in a specific firearm, just general range ammo. But I see guys saying they make minute changes in powder, powder amounts, bullet seating, etc., and change a 2" group to an, all rounds touching group. Same thing with manufacturing.

I have a Remington 597 I bought on sale at Bass Pro in 2005. It was a "package" deal with a scope from the factory. When I got there, they didn't have any of the "package" guns left, so they put a $40 House brand Redhead scope on it. I bought it for a plinker.

That gun is very accurate, dime sized groups at 25 yards all day long. (I've only shot it at an indoor range) My BIL wanted a rimfire and I sold it to him, luckily I got it back.

I've had feeding problems with most rimfire ammo, with the exception of CCI Mini Mag. It works in everything I have used it in. Here is something I find unusual… Mini Mag hollow points are more accurate for me than round nose. You would think it would be the opposite.

However…. The shooter is absolutely more important than anything. I've seen guys question the accuracy of a rifle or scope, that couldn't hit the side of a barn if they were standing in it. No matter how much money you spend, it can't overcome a person that is a crappy shot.

 

[Hduke86]

I have a couple of new .22s that I've wanted to test, 10-22s that I want to know how accurate they can be.

Those 10/22's are at least 40 yard "cat running" accurate. Well that's at least when you just keep pulling the trigger and catch up to it on round 7-10

 

[MUP]

Those 10/22's are at least 40 yard "cat running" accurate. Well that's at least when you just keep pulling the trigger and catch up to it on round 7-10

Well, new to me .22s LOL I just haven't shot them yet.

 

[Tenntrapper]

Well, new to me .22s LOL I just haven't shot them yet.

My new 10/22 doesn't shoot anything special. It does good enough...and looks good doing it, but I've just gotten used to the CZs....guess I expected more.

 

[nso123]

I will throw some things out that might help. For context, I have shot Steel Challenge for several years and am currently a grand master who is sponsored by Magnum Research. I shoot their Switchbolt (10/22 clone) in matches. My rifle is speced with a looser chamber for the purpose of reliability. The match chamber that many are discussing is also known as a Bentz chamber. For accuracy the Bentz is king. It is tight, and can cause feeding issues in a semi-automatic when shooting fast. Our team rifles had this chamber initially and refused to run fast. The chambers were reamed slightly larger and we were all good.

Now, as far as accuracy in a rimfire goes, ammo plays a huge role. It's not just the brand, it's down to the lot number that can affect accuracy. For example, Eley is the top ammo in the rimfire accuracy game. When it comes into Texas from England the different lots are tested in a tunnel for accuracy. The best lot numbers are like lottery numbers, and the top shooters have ways of finding out which lots have shown the most promise. If you look on the Killough Shooting Sports site you will see that you order Eley Tenex by lot number in addition to your quantity. At a certain point the barrel is no longer your limiting factor, the ammo is (not considering wind). This is why folks are paying almost $20 per box of 50 for .22 ammo.

 

[Tenntrapper]

I will throw some things out that might help. For context, I have shot Steel Challenge for several years and am currently a grand master who is sponsored by Magnum Research. I shoot their Switchbolt (10/22 clone) in matches. My rifle is speced with a looser chamber for the purpose of reliability. The match chamber that many are discussing is also known as a Bentz chamber. For accuracy the Bentz is king. It is tight, and can cause feeding issues in a semi-automatic when shooting fast. Our team rifles had this chamber initially and refused to run fast. The chambers were reamed slightly larger and we were all good.

Now, as far as accuracy in a rimfire goes, ammo plays a huge role. It's not just the brand, it's down to the lot number that can affect accuracy. For example, Eley is the top ammo in the rimfire accuracy game. When it comes into Texas from England the different lots are tested in a tunnel for accuracy. The best lot numbers are like lottery numbers, and the top shooters have ways of finding out which lots have shown the most promise. If you look on the Killough Shooting Sports site you will see that you order Eley Tenex by lot number in addition to your quantity. At a certain point the barrel is no longer your limiting factor, the ammo is (not considering wind). This is why folks are paying almost $20 per box of 50 for .22 ammo.

I understand the ammo thing...and I shoot Tenex if I'm trying to get the most out of one.
In my 10/22, Tenex shoots better than tac22, but still nowhere near as accurate as in my CZ.
I guess my question today was more influenced by the fact my 50 yrd groups with bulk ammo in the 22 mag were better than my 30 yrd groups with my 10/22...using Tenex. Just what makes one rimfire more accurate than another?

 

[nso123]

I understand the ammo thing...and I shoot Tenex if I'm trying to get the most out of one.
In my 10/22, Tenex shoots better than tac22, but still nowhere near as accurate as in my CZ.
I guess my question today was more influenced by the fact my 50 yrd groups with bulk ammo in the 22 mag were better than my 30 yrd groups with my 10/22...using Tenex. Just what makes one rimfire more accurate than another?

It can be the chamber, how clean the barrel is, the ammo or a combination of all of it. Put a Kidd barrel on the 10/22 and it might outshoot the CZ, or it might not. The .22 accuracy game is a big time rabbit hole. You'll see stuff like coned breeches vs standard that can cause arguments for days. 2 groove barrels vs other styles is another good argument. Then you have the person who chambers it and whatever secret dust they sprinkle while they work on it. Look at the people who swear by gunsmiths like Bill Calfee or Rich Gotham and you can get into some emotional fireworks for sure. You have some of those guys who will only build a rifle for you if you are considered a top shooter. Rimfire accuracy is an awesome rabbit hole to explore.

 

[redblood]

Chamber, trigger, balance, pressure points (or lack thereof) and barrel harmonics

 

[MUP]

I will throw some things out that might help. For context, I have shot Steel Challenge for several years and am currently a grand master who is sponsored by Magnum Research. I shoot their Switchbolt (10/22 clone) in matches. My rifle is speced with a looser chamber for the purpose of reliability. The match chamber that many are discussing is also known as a Bentz chamber. For accuracy the Bentz is king. It is tight, and can cause feeding issues in a semi-automatic when shooting fast. Our team rifles had this chamber initially and refused to run fast. The chambers were reamed slightly larger and we were all good.

Now, as far as accuracy in a rimfire goes, ammo plays a huge role. It's not just the brand, it's down to the lot number that can affect accuracy. For example, Eley is the top ammo in the rimfire accuracy game. When it comes into Texas from England the different lots are tested in a tunnel for accuracy. The best lot numbers are like lottery numbers, and the top shooters have ways of finding out which lots have shown the most promise. If you look on the Killough Shooting Sports site you will see that you order Eley Tenex by lot number in addition to your quantity. At a certain point the barrel is no longer your limiting factor, the ammo is (not considering wind). This is why folks are paying almost $20 per box of 50 for .22 ammo.

x 10000 on the lot #. I see that myself even. Have several bricks of a certain brand, and of those bricks only 1 lot # stands out above the rest! Like finding a golden nugget in a stream!

 

[mike243]

A match chamber will hold a better pattern longer as the barrel heats up, worn reamers give smaller bores which would make tighter fitting shells, the reamers don't grow and cause over bores, you might get 1 bent that could cause a enlarged chamber, Marlin made a few 22 with match chambers but they are a hens tooth to find. shooting the fast stuff in a match chamber causes wear as the case often hits not just the bullet but the end of the chamber. surprising how different powders and bullets shoot a lot different, I am a firm believer in a 40g lead only bullet, my marlin 7000 would probably out shoot my 10/22T if it had a better trigger, folks have cobbled a couple of hacks for it but none I am comfortable on doing. The chambers are checked I am sure with go/no go gauges, how much tolerance Thay allow I have no clue. I don't use any copper ammo in any of my 22's . years ago I played around with a lot of ammo and found it might take a box of ammo for a barrel to settle into a good pattern, switch ammo and have to start over. the Federal blue box was the best I found for off the shelf ammo, forgot the #, the automatch I bought when I ran out had 3-5 ftf in it, I wasn't impressed. have not bought any 22 ammo in a few years as I hoarded what I could find. I want to come shoot with MUP next year if all goes as planned, time will tell

 

[Tenntrapper]

A match chamber will hold a better pattern longer as the barrel heats up, worn reamers give smaller bores which would make tighter fitting shells, the reamers don't grow and cause over bores, you might get 1 bent that could cause a enlarged chamber, Marlin made a few 22 with match chambers but they are a hens tooth to find. shooting the fast stuff in a match chamber causes wear as the case often hits not just the bullet but the end of the chamber. surprising how different powders and bullets shoot a lot different, I am a firm believer in a 40g lead only bullet, my marlin 7000 would probably out shoot my 10/22T if it had a better trigger, folks have cobbled a couple of hacks for it but none I am comfortable on doing. The chambers are checked I am sure with go/no go gauges, how much tolerance Thay allow I have no clue. I don't use any copper ammo in any of my 22's . years ago I played around with a lot of ammo and found it might take a box of ammo for a barrel to settle into a good pattern, switch ammo and have to start over. the Federal blue box was the best I found for off the shelf ammo, forgot the #, the automatch I bought when I ran out had 3-5 ftf in it, I wasn't impressed. have not bought any 22 ammo in a few years as I hoarded what I could find. I want to come shoot with MUP next year if all goes as planned, time will tell

30+ posts in....and Mike makes an obvious observation....reamers don't wear "bigger". Through this entire thread, it has been accepted that reamers wear and cause sloppy, oversized chambers. But Mike is correct....the reamer wouldn't get bigger...it would get smaller...making a tighter chamber.
Now what??

 

[MUP]

It's still a wear vs tolerance situation. Match dimensioned reamers will only cut so many chambers before they wear to out of tolerance specs, too tight. Production reamers will run more chambers bc as they wear they will remain within the production specs longer, bc the production specs are slightly more open.

 

[MUP]

A match chamber will hold a better pattern longer as the barrel heats up, worn reamers give smaller bores which would make tighter fitting shells, the reamers don't grow and cause over bores, you might get 1 bent that could cause a enlarged chamber, Marlin made a few 22 with match chambers but they are a hens tooth to find. shooting the fast stuff in a match chamber causes wear as the case often hits not just the bullet but the end of the chamber. surprising how different powders and bullets shoot a lot different, I am a firm believer in a 40g lead only bullet, my marlin 7000 would probably out shoot my 10/22T if it had a better trigger, folks have cobbled a couple of hacks for it but none I am comfortable on doing. The chambers are checked I am sure with go/no go gauges, how much tolerance Thay allow I have no clue. I don't use any copper ammo in any of my 22's . years ago I played around with a lot of ammo and found it might take a box of ammo for a barrel to settle into a good pattern, switch ammo and have to start over. the Federal blue box was the best I found for off the shelf ammo, forgot the #, the automatch I bought when I ran out had 3-5 ftf in it, I wasn't impressed. have not bought any 22 ammo in a few years as I hoarded what I could find. I want to come shoot with MUP next year if all goes as planned, time will tell

Looking forward to seeing you buddy!

 

[Tenntrapper]

It's still a wear vs tolerance situation. Match dimensioned reamers will only cut so many chambers before they wear to out of tolerance specs, too tight. Production reamers will run more chambers bc as they wear they will remain within the production specs longer, bc the production specs are slightly more open.

I was reading about chambers over on another forum...maybe RFC. They were naming off several different chambers...what Annie uses, lilja, etc.... different chambers cut for the ammo you intend to use. Some chambers are tapered (like a funnel), some are straight walled, one made especially for the EPS bullet, wolf, lapua, etc. How much lead..bullet jam, etc. Some have so much jam(into the lands) that extracting a live round...causes issues. Even the lead angle is dependent upon which reamer is used. Even read that some have so much jam into lands, closing the bolt was difficult. So although I don't doubt that tolerance and wear are contributes... sounding like shape of the chamber is also part of the equation. Best to know what ammo you will be using, then have an appropriate chamber cut.

 

[MUP]

Absolutely. Chamber reamers are almost ammo specific exclusively these days. I don't know what reamer CZ uses, but my ammo has some jam to it, but I can extract a live round without pulling the bullet and spilling the powder out into the chamber. It does well, but I do wonder about a new barrel and a specific reamer for it tho.

 

[Tenntrapper]

Absolutely. Chamber reamers are almost ammo specific exclusively these days. I don't know what reamer CZ uses, but my ammo has some jam to it, but I can extract a live round without pulling the bullet and spilling the powder out into the chamber. It does well, but I do wonder about a new barrel and a specific reamer for it tho.

Same here...never had an issue extracting a live round. I wonder if the 10/22 uses a looser "straight wall" type chamber for reliability reasons. And when you buy a lilja (for example) barrel for it... you're really just buy a better chamber. I'm sure the barrel itself is better, but if it's just more about the chamber.
I tried to find out what chamber CZ uses, but to no avail. I may call them later today. See what chamber...what it's optimized for.
I did realize something the other day...
All the Tenex I've been shooting is the round nose stuff....but what I've been stock piling is the EPS....I haven't even tried it... I didn't realize it was a different bullet shape. Hope the EPS shoots good. I've got too much invested in ammo to not have to buy a barrel with an EPS chamber...if it don't...