Potential problems with field-judging age

BSK

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BSK, this post has me thinking about a few of our deer and whether I've been mis-identifying them. This video is from yesterday....is this a 3.5 or 4.5? I do know he would've looked different a month ago.
I'll bet that buck would have looked very different the first week of November. Considering the antler mass, I would say he's a run-down 4 1/2.

Also, we rarely see rut activity after Thanksgiving. I'm blowing up with trail cam picks of deer, including 3 bucks chasing a doe earlier this week. Crazy year!
That is very, very interesting. I haven't checked my cams since Nov. 21st, so I don't know what's going on, but I look forward to finding out. And by the way, the terrain and habitat in the video look exactly like my place!
 

TheLBLman

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My areas in Stewart Co. were not hit as hard by 2022 drought as BSK's area in Humphreys.

But I do think more 3 1/2's are being mistaken for 2 1/2's this year, due to a combination of poor mast and drought adversely effecting both antler & body growth.

That said, I'd like for many of you to carefully study this buck's pic.
This pic was taken smack-dab in the middle of our rut, so he should have been looking his best, not yet run down much from rutting.

I will re-visit this within a few weeks with some more data and pics.

So, how old do you guess this buck to be on November 22, 2023?


P.S. Matson Labs will get the final say (for whatever that's worth or not) :)

2023 11-22.JPG


A couple of things to particularly take note, in helping identify him in some more pics:

1) Note his left G3 is longer than his left G2.
Most commonly, the G2s are longer than the G3s.

2) Note near his rear, it almost looks like something whacked him across the base of his spine.
Viewing down his spine, he seems to "drop off" more & faster than most deer, before you get to the base of his tail.
 
Last edited:

RobbyW

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Henry County TN
This topic won't apply to everyone in TN, just those who hunt/manage in the areas hit hardest by the 2022 drought.

First, let me say I'm not conclusively sure this problem is an absolute fact. It is based on an interesting trend I've observed having looked at a lot of photo census data and compared notes with many landowners/managers who collect trail-camera data. And this trend is - when looking at a census of the bucks using a given property - an unusually high number of 3 1/2 year-old bucks and an unusually low number of mature bucks (4 1/2+) this year.

Many factors influence a local area's "age pyramid" - the percent of the total buck population in each age-class. But it goes without saying that there will almost always be fewer bucks in each older age-class, because of all forms of mortality. In essence, you should see less 2 1/2 year-old bucks than yearlings because some yearlings are going to die each year, so fewer bucks that are 2 1/2 will exist the following year. This continues with each age-class. A local area's age pyramid - especially looked at over a number of years - should show the largest cohort is yearlings, the second largest should be 2 1/2s, the third largest should be 3 1/2s, etc. on up through all the age-classes that exist in the area. Now how big of a difference there is from one age-class to the next oldest will depend on many factors, but I find that the biggest factor is hunter harvest pressure. In fact, hunter harvest pressure is usually so obvious in the data I don't need to be told where the age-based limit for a club or big landowner is. I can see it in the data. If a club/landowner is using a rule (and that rule has been in place for a number of years) that bucks must be 3 1/2 before they are killable by hunters, I will see only a small drop in the number of 2 1/2s from the number of yearlings. The only loss of yearlings to 2 1/2s is through natural mortality - yearling bucks dying of disease, injuries, car collisions, etc. The same will be true of the decline in bucks from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 - only a fairly small percentage decline. But because bucks are "legal" for harvest at 3 1/2, I will see a big drop-off in bucks from 3 1/2 to 4 1/2, and every older age-class as well, as hunters pick off a significant portion of each of these "legal for harvest" age-classes each year.

The point of all this is that, looked at over a number of years, I don't see big swings in the buck age pyramid on individual properties from year to year. Once a local area's age pyramid has developed - based on local harvest pressure - it stays very close to the same from year to year, with only slight differences. Even when hunters/managers change their harvest rules in attempt to produce an older buck age structure, the changes occur slowly from year to year. When properties make major changes in harvest guidelines to produce more older or mature bucks, the changes from year to year are incremental - just a couple of percentage points better from one year to the next (but these add up over time). Now there will certainly be vast differences in the buck age pyramid from property to property because of different amounts of harvest pressure and different self-imposed buck restrictions, but when looking at years of data from a single property, the numbers don't change quickly from year to year.

OK, after that exhaustive explanation, back to the original problem. And let me state again, I'm only seeing this problem in areas hit hardest by the 2022 drought - those areas where the drought was so severe that the acorn crop was a total failure, agricultural crops failed, food plots failed, and even the native habitat dried up (and I saw locations where even the pokeweed and ragweed dried up and died). The problem is a very odd number of bucks field-judged as being 3 1/2 this year. And when I say an "odd number," I'm saying some of these properties have come up with almost as many - and in some cases MORE - 3 1/2 year-old bucks than 2 1/2 year-old bucks. The accuracy of this scenario is highly unlikely. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

My concern is, did the severe drought last year, and post-rut bucks going into a difficult winter (no acorns, no food plots, no agriculture) prevent surviving 3 1/2 and older bucks from adding the body growth the following spring/summer to "look like" they are a year older? The only explanation I can come up with for how numerous properties suddenly have more 3 1/2s than they had 2 1/2s the previous year is that some of those 3 1/2s are not 3 1/2. They are 4 1/2s (or even older) that were severely underfed the previous winter. This is pure conjecture on my part, but the numbers don't lie. If this occurred on just one property, I could come up with all sorts of potential explanations for it. But on multiple properties, all in the same region that all share the commonality of the drought? Yet in areas not as heavily affected by the drought I am NOT seeing this unusual pattern?

Again, this is pure speculation on my part trying to explain a regional anomaly. But it is an educated guess based on a lot of data over many years. But I could be wrong too and it's just an odd, highly coincidental anomaly.
If true would they catch up? Meaning if they eat well this year is it like when I get lazy on mg diet and I go right back or will they remain smaller?
 

backyardtndeer

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My areas in Stewart Co. were not hit as hard by 2022 drought as BSK's area in Humphreys.

But I do think more 3 1/2's are being mistaken for 2 1/2's this year, due to a combination of poor mast and drought adversely effecting both antler & body growth.

That said, I'd like for many of you to carefully study this buck's pic.
This pic was taken smack-dab in the middle of our rut, so he should have been looking his best, not yet run down much from rutting.

I will re-visit this within a few weeks with some more data and pics.

So, how old do you guess this buck to be on November 22, 2023?


P.S. Matson Labs will get the final say (for whatever that's worth or not) :)

View attachment 206890

A couple of things to particularly take note, in helping identify him in some more pics:

1) Note his left G3 is longer than his left G2.
Most commonly, the G2s are longer than the G3s.

2) Note near his rear, it almost looks like something whacked him across the base of his spine.
Viewing down his spine, he seems to "drop off" more & faster than most deer, before you get to the base of his tail.
5.5 or older would be my guess on that deer.
 

DeerCamp

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I haven't posted much about it yet, but I hunted in Oklahoma again this year.

I pulled the trigger on what I was sure was going to be a 140" deer.

The deer was TINY. 122 lbs live weight. Rack was 18" wide inside. It might have hit 120". I didn't even score it.

Fooled me hard.
 

Outdoor Enthusiast

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Carthage, TN
I haven't posted much about it yet, but I hunted in Oklahoma again this year.

I pulled the trigger on what I was sure was going to be a 140" deer.

The deer was TINY. 122 lbs live weight. Rack was 18" wide inside. It might have hit 120". I didn't even score it.

Fooled me hard.
Interesting. I think @Ski has told a story about a "dwarf" buck he killed a few years ago.

I have never see that situation in the woods personally. I am sure I would be fooled too.
 

DeerCamp

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Interesting. I think @Ski has told a story about a "dwarf" buck he killed a few years ago.

I have never see that situation in the woods personally. I am sure I would be fooled too.
Here was a picture of the deer alive. As you can see I even took time to video him. Watched him for about a minute before I pulled the trigger.



Screenshot_20231118_175559_Photos (1).jpg


I was a little shocked when I walked up on this. Here's all 122 lbs of him.

He was smaller than either of the does we shot.

66424.jpeg
 

Ski

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I haven't posted much about it yet, but I hunted in Oklahoma again this year.

I pulled the trigger on what I was sure was going to be a 140" deer.

The deer was TINY. 122 lbs live weight. Rack was 18" wide inside. It might have hit 120". I didn't even score it.

Fooled me hard.

It happens around here a lot.
 

backyardtndeer

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West Tennessee
Here was a picture of the deer alive. As you can see I even took time to video him. Watched him for about a minute before I pulled the trigger.



View attachment 207038

I was a little shocked when I walked up on this. Here's all 122 lbs of him.

He was smaller than either of the does we shot.

View attachment 207039
Yeah, he has a really small body, did you look at his teeth and try to guesstimate his age.

With you holding the ears back hard to gauge, but he doesn't look 18 inside in that pic.
 

Ski

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Here was a picture of the deer alive. As you can see I even took time to video him. Watched him for about a minute before I pulled the trigger.

I was a little shocked when I walked up on this. Here's all 122 lbs of him.

He was smaller than either of the does we shot.

That is pretty representative of the bucks I kill around here. I've yet to kill a buck here that I wasn't able to swing & throw into the bed of my truck by myself. I don't weigh them but I'd be surprised if any of them have hit 150lbs. And although their racks look big on their bodies, and they're plenty mature, not one has yet met the P&Y minimum of 125". The bucks I'm used to hunting in Ohio & other midwest states are that big often by 2.5 & almost always by 3.5. So I was a bit flabbergasted & confused first couple times I killed a buck here and walked up to put my hands on them. But now I've come to expect it so no shock anymore.
 

DeerCamp

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That is pretty representative of the bucks I kill around here. I've yet to kill a buck here that I wasn't able to swing & throw into the bed of my truck by myself. I don't weigh them but I'd be surprised if any of them have hit 150lbs. And although their racks look big on their bodies, and they're plenty mature, not one has yet met the P&Y minimum of 125". The bucks I'm used to hunting in Ohio & other midwest states are that big often by 2.5 & almost always by 3.5. So I was a bit flabbergasted & confused first couple times I killed a buck here and walked up to put my hands on them. But now I've come to expect it so no shock anymore.
It's not normal for where I hunt in Oklahoma. Our deer average about 175 up there, but last year my brother killed an old buck that weighed 230. Largest bodied deer I've ever personally touched.

Crazy to think that buck weighed 100 pounds more than this one.
 

Ski

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It's not normal for where I hunt in Oklahoma. Our deer average about 175 up there, but last year my brother killed an old buck that weighed 230. Largest bodied deer I've ever personally touched.

Crazy to think that buck weighed 100 pounds more than this one.

Yeah I used to live in Altus OK near the Red River. I don't recall ever seeing tiny deer. They were pretty normal.
 

easy45

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Chester County
This is a good example of what your talking about. This is a deer that we had numerous encounters with last season when we had him pegged as a 3.5 year old. This is a trail cam pic from this year and the kills pic. The deer literally looks the same as he did last year body wise. If we hadn't had history with him I would have guessed him as a 3.5. Mature bucks on this farm are always over 200 pounds live weight but this guy was about 170 and was aged at 4.5 after harvest.


162682-74e0ccc3a1b4a9fb41215938502bf91f.jpg
162683-df679b0d0bdd0af29960815c5cb4e131.jpg
 

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