How will CWD spread?

[fairchaser]

They say nose to nose contact thats why you dont want to run feeders,lick blocks ,ect ,ect .its comeing,quicker than they Anticipated.but its not new it started in california in cattle and sheep they do have antidotes for this disease but they wonte use it.to costly to distrabute.and being the twr is a private Identity and run by insurance companys are deer hunting are doomed.

The only antidote for any sort of TSE or prion disease is to euthanize the animal period.

 

[TheLBLman]

. . . . Ames . . . . . Last season only two bucks were aged 4.5 or older for a total of 27 bucks total killed with only 5 scoring 125 gross. In prior seasons before CWD, the club killed an average of 30 bucks aged 4.5 or at least 125 gross with 40-45 bucks total killed in a season.

Considering Ames is an intensely managed tract of around 20,000 contiguous acres, this makes for a great example (even pre-CWD) as to how TN cannot produce higher-scoring "trophy" bucks like so many other states of the same latitude and farther north.

And I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Ames, as it has been in fact better managed for "trophy" bucks than most large private tracts in Tennessee under intense buck management. I just don't know of another private tract this large, and large enough it shouldn't be greatly effected by what the neighbors do.

That's one buck scoring 125 gross per 4,000 acres, and many the Ames members are very accomplished, avid trophy buck hunters.

 

[fairchaser]

Personally, I'm not worried about catching a transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (TSE) disease from eating a CWD infected deer. Do date, no one has. Now some will say that's only because not enough people have eaten an infected deer. I don't know about that. With Mad Cow Disease (MCD), which is known to be transmissible to humans, in Europe an estimate 38 million people ate MCD infected beef. Of those, 206 people were infected. That's a rate of 5.4 people per million people who ate the infected meat. I'll bet more than a million people have eaten CWD infected venison, and no one has caught the disease yet.

I don't disagree with your numbers but I wonder if the risk of catching alpha gal syndrome from ticks is not similar and yet several on this site have had it.

 

[fairchaser]

Considering Ames is an intensely managed tract of around 20,000 contiguous acres, this makes for a great example (even pre-CWD) as to how TN cannot produce higher-scoring "trophy" bucks like so many other states of the same latitude and farther north.

And I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing Ames, as it has been in fact better managed for "trophy" bucks than most large private tracts in Tennessee under intense buck management. I just don't know of another private tract this large, and large enough it shouldn't be greatly effected by what the neighbors do.

That's one buck scoring 125 gross per 4,000 acres, and many the Ames members are very accomplished, avid trophy buck hunters.

That's true now but prior to CWD, it was one mature buck per 600 acres. Big difference!

 

[TheLBLman]

That's true now but prior to CWD, it was one mature buck per 600 acres. Big difference!

Yes, big difference, but was also pointing out how low scoring these mature bucks are compared to many other states, such as Missouri, Kentucky, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Kansas, etc.

"Mature" bucks are easy to grow, at least they were pre-CWD.
You simply don't shoot them when they're youngsters.
Growing them with antlers scoring above 130 in TN is a totally different matter.

 

[Mescalero]

Here is my .o2.
For the average hunter cwd is a non issue. The vast majority of hunters are not trophy hunters. Since CWD mostly takes out the older animals, (and not a huge % of them) the average joe wont notice. Heck the average public land trophy hunter probably wont notice. Especially since other factors such as EHD, other hunters, old age, and autos are more likely to kill that big buck than CWD.

Now the guys who farm deer on captive ranches can have huge losses. When bucks are bringing $10k + if one of them gets CWD its an expensive loss. Just like if your prize bull dies its costly.

Guys who hunt intensively managed properties where each buck is known by trail camera photos and have a hit list..... they will notice if cwd takes out one of their target bucks. High fence game ranches are in the same boat.

Management agencies from a $$$ perspective LOVE cwd. Big budgets and federal $$$$$$ are being allocated to study and "deal" with it. Most game agencies answer is to "kill more deer and reduce the herd". Isn't that what they are afraid CWD will do? Kill a bunch of deer and reduce the herd? Northern states who went the "kill 2/3 of the herd" route still have CWD. So that method of control didn't work. Might have slowed the spread, Maybe? But it is still around and possibly killing all those deer could have contributed to the spread with concentrations of carcasses.

Fear and hype are the enemy of methodical logical thought, and CWD gets plenty of both. Now that $$$$$$$$$$$$ is in the mix, don't expect any official solution that doesn't require a large ongoing budget.

IS cwd the looming doom of deer hunting and possibly the human race IF it jumps species ?
I think NO.
I think it is entirely possible that CWD is a form of "deer scrapie" like the scrapie that affects sheep. Its probably always been around but only recently with high fence deer ranching and the advancement of testing, have we known what killed a deer. Prior to deer ranching, a random carcass found in the wild would be attributed to any number of factors.
I believe the biggest factor in CWD is the deer farming and extremely high density in the high fences which concentrates the deer. Much like how one sick kid will give 2/3 the toddlers in a preschool class the flu. Concentrating deer, sheep, or kids allows an infection the opportunity to quickly run through the group. Once it gets outside the high fence has it run through the wild herds knocking off 1/2 or more of the wild herds? Nope.

I don't know what the "correct" philosophy is for dealing with CWD. Perhaps it is hubris to believe that "we" need to "deal with it" at all. Maybe CWD is a naturally occurring illness like EHD, lumpy jaw, bot flys and a host of other issues ?

Your penultimate paragraph is the reason why TWRA and other state Game agencies believe reducing herd size is a chief was to reduce CWD transmission and spread. Not making any value judgment about that response, right or wrong.

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

How did Ames become the epicenter on an 18,000 acre piece of property?

 

[fairchaser]

How did Ames become the epicenter on an 18,000 acre piece of property?

That's a multi-million dollar question. I would say multi-million cost could be low at that when you consider the cost down the road on property values. There are a few evidence based rumors and I believe a few would say they absolutely know how it got here. I don't know for sure so I won't say. It didn't get here through natural movement and I'd say the odds are that it got here from someone with money trying to improve herd genetics in their local herd. It could have also come from deer escaping from nearby deer farming facilities. Either way, it arrived at 70 mph down the interstate. I don't believe it was planted here with any intention to cause harm but through ignorance or irresponsibility from someone unaffiliated with Ames.

 

[Mescalero]

All of the above.

But I like to rely on Occam's Razor and the simplest answer is it spreads most easily and the farthest as the OP observed on the highway when infected live or dead deer are being transported. Why did CWD first appear in West TN and not Middle or East TN? Yes, could have been from a captive deer operation in Fayette or Hardeman Counties (are there such operations there?). Could have been a live deer being transported from, say WI which has such operations, to say TX for a high fence operation. But, the first deer that tested positive for CWD in MS was in Feb 2018 (CWD had probably already been there). Issaguena County, MS is about 250 miles from Memphis. The first deer that tested positive for CWD in TN was in Dec 2018. Yes, correlation is not causation. Do a lot of west TN hunters also hunt in MS, probably? That's my guess. An infected deer killed in MS was transported back home to TN. Could just have easily have been an infected deer killed in WS (first discovered in southern WS in 2002) or northern IL or another midwestern state. A lot of guys hunt OH and it was first found there in 2014 in a high fence operation, but in the NE part of the state and that herd was destroyed. But again, why West TN and no where else in TN for TN's patient zero?

The scavenger theory is plausible, but I think that would be mostly local transmission (same county). I'm no expert on eagles, hawks, vultures, coyotes, but what is the likelihood that a transient coyote that has eaten an infected deer, including that deer's brain and/or spinal tissue, is going to transport the prions on its paws, teeth, fur to the next county let alone interstate? Again, Occam's Razor says locally yes, maybe, but the primary cause of interstate spread? Doubtful.

I hunt exclusively Middle TN and I don't know off the top of my head where to get a deer tested if I chose to do so. That's on me. Is there testing outside of the CWD zone going on? I know there was in 2021. Doesn't seem to be publicized all that much, but again that's on me. There needs to be, but also how many Middle and East TN hunters who used to hunt West TN stopped? When I kill a deer in Maury County or Hickman, I have to note that when I check the deer and TWRA also knows I'm a resident of Williamson. I have to believe that TWRA has the data and knows how many deer that are killed in the CWD zone are killed by hunters resident outside of that zone. It's spreading and it is spreading east and north. I understand the thinking behind TWRA's and other state game agencies' desire to reduce herd size in the CWD zones, but it makes absolutely no sense to me to extend the CWD zone season to January 31 when the deer hunting in all of the other TN units are closed Jan. 8 or 13. And that's why those idiots that the OP observed were out hunting the CWD zone and illegally transporting highly likely infected deer back east. SMH.

Come on TWRA. I always defend you and strongly support you, but use some common sense.

 

[BSK]

I can't speak for the surrounding area but on Ames we have killed fewer deer, fewer bucks and significantly fewer mature bucks. Last season only two bucks were aged 4.5 or older for a total of 27 bucks total killed with only 5 scoring 125 gross. In prior seasons before CWD, the club killed an average of 30 bucks aged 4.5 or at least 125 gross with 40-45 bucks total killed in a season. This season only 75 total deer were killed which is roughly half the deer killed in seasons before CWD. Also, we have 55 hunters compared with 80-90 hunters in prior years before CWD. These anomalies can be explained in a number of ways but certainly CWD has played a role.

Thanks fairchaser.

 

[BSK]

I don't disagree with your numbers but I wonder if the risk of catching alpha gal syndrome from ticks is not similar and yet several on this site have had it.

Alpha-Gal Allergy effects tens of thousands of people. Even back in 2020 the number exceeded 40,000. It can be contracted quite easily by tick-bite. Now I do believe some people have a genetic disposition towards it (just like any other infectious disease), but it is nowhere near as low as 5.4 people per million exposed like MCD.

 

[Bone Collector]

I'll bet more than a million people have eaten CWD infected venison, and no one has caught the disease yet.

I'd bet way more than that. CWD has been around since the 60's if what I have read is true. Furthermore testing wasn't hardly available until after the MCD incident and CWD spreading into places like Wisconsin and Michigan (big deer hunting states).

If it's been around since the 60s and they couldn't test or didn't test, I'd say 10's of millions of people have eaten infected meat over that period.

 

[BigAl]

Alpha-Gal Allergy effects tens of thousands of people. Even back in 2020 the number exceeded 40,000. It can be contracted quite easily by tick-bite. Now I do believe some people have a genetic disposition towards it (just like any other infectious disease), but it is nowhere near as low as 5.4 people per million exposed like MCD.OI

I have alpha gal, so I can't eat venison. So I no longer have to worry about eating deer that might be infected with CWD. One of just a couple of positives from having AG.

 

[BSK]

I have alpha gal, so I can't eat venison. So I no longer have to worry about eating deer that might be infected with CWD. One of just a couple of positives from having AG.

That's very interesting. Most people with AG can still eat venison, but not all. The AG reaction is actually to the fat in the meat as it is being metabolized. We butcher our own, and remove all fat and facia before packaging, and add no fat to our ground meat. Myself and two sisters had/have AG and two of us could eat venison without reaction but one could not.

 

[BigAl]

That's very interesting. Most people with AG can still eat venison, but not all. The AG reaction is actually to the fat in the meat as it is being metabolized. We butcher our own, and remove all fat and facia before packaging, and add no fat to our ground meat. Myself and two sisters had/have AG and two of us could eat venison without reaction but one could not.

I've only tried it once, last year at Talladega. Someone gave it to me so I'm not sure how lean it was, but I did have a reaction. Not a full blown one. I've gotten to the point where I can eat certain things or a little here and there, this was a small amount of venison. With AG, different people to different things in different ways. I have around 5 or so different types of reactions myself, not all at the same time.

 

[BSK]

I've only tried it once, last year at Talladega. Someone gave it to me so I'm not sure how lean it was, but I did have a reaction. Not a full blown one. I've gotten to the point where I can eat certain things or a little here and there, this was a small amount of venison. With AG, different people to different things in different ways. I have around 5 or so different types of reactions myself, not all at the same time.

While I still had AG, I could eat a slice or two of baked ham and be OK. But more than that and I would get a reaction. No idea why the difference. But beef, any beef, and I was going into severe anaphylaxis. Thankfully, after 20 years of avoiding beef, the AG was gone.

 

[AT Hiker]

That's very interesting. Most people with AG can still eat venison, but not all. The AG reaction is actually to the fat in the meat as it is being metabolized. We butcher our own, and remove all fat and facia before packaging, and add no fat to our ground meat. Myself and two sisters had/have AG and two of us could eat venison without reaction but one could not.

My sister in-law has AG, about 5 years into it. She cannot eat any mammal without having a reaction.
Even if a utensil touches mammal meat she can get sick.

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

That's a multi-million dollar question. I would say multi-million cost could be low at that when you consider the cost down the road on property values. There are a few evidence based rumors and I believe a few would say they absolutely know how it got here. I don't know for sure so I won't say. It didn't get here through natural movement and I'd say the odds are that it got here from someone with money trying to improve herd genetics in their local herd. It could have also come from deer escaping from nearby deer farming facilities. Either way, it arrived at 70 mph down the interstate. I don't believe it was planted here with any intention to cause harm but through ignorance or irresponsibility from someone unaffiliated with Ames.

If the state will simply tighten the regulations back up you'll be fine. Like everywhere else that's had it for decades out west. I just don't know if they'll do it soon enough.

 

[BigAl]

While I still had AG, I could eat a slice or two of baked ham and be OK. But more than that and I would get a reaction. No idea why the difference. But beef, any beef, and I was going into severe anaphylaxis. Thankfully, after 20 years of avoiding beef, the AG was gone.

Funny, I react to baked ham. But I can eat cured country ham. Same with bacon, I can eat it as long as its cured. guessing the salt or curing process plays into this. I can now eat some beef but have to stick to lean cuts. No ribeyes or hamburgers, mostly lean filets. Still trying to figure out pork, I can eat some but have to be careful. And sausages are a big no.

 

[Soft Talker]

Heard it spreads pretty good on a biscuit. Not worried about it one bit