Bullet not stabilizing

[tn gunman]

Any of you smokeless muzzleloader shooters have any advice on why I can't get my bullets to stabilize their tumbleing hitting target sideways at 100 yards. At 25 yards getting it on paper they punch a clean hole so they are flying right at that distance. It's a Encore 18" SSK Industries 45-70 barrel 1/14 twist converted by Jeff Hankins. I know the twist is a little bit fast for light bullets, I thought going to a heavier bullet would fix the problem but that's not the case. I'm shooting bullet to bore I've shot everything from 200-300 grain bullets. I've tried the bullets sized looser and sized so tight almost can't get them seated and same result. I've tried different powder charges from 50g-53g-55g-60g of IMR 4198 same result. I had chosen this short 18" SSK barrel because I wanted a lightweight compact smokeless to run and gun with in a climber hunting in the woods also wanted as short as possible because I'm running it suppressed. I thought maybe the supressor could be affecting the bullet but makes no difference suppressed or not same result, tumbleing bullet, however it's not very fun to shoot unsuppressed at 18" long it is stupid loud. Only thing I have left to try is shooting sabots, but can't shoot them with supressor, so if they were to work it kinda defeats the purpose of having a smokeless barrel this short. Any suggestions or pointers?

Forgot to mention ignition source, Im using modules with Federal 215M primers.

 

[Jcalder]

What ignition are you using. @jlanecr500 is the man for these smokeless guns.

 

[ADR]

Any wad?
Did Jeff have a recommended load for this setup?

 

[tn gunman]

Haven't tried a wad yet just got some yesterday but it's my understanding that they help with accuracy issues not sure there going to help bullet stabilization but I'm for sure going to try them. I didn't ask Jeff about a load I know he recommends 270g Pittman Accumax and IMR 4198 around 60 grains in his CVA Scout conversions. I haven't tried the Pittman but tried an 300g Arrowhead long range bullet that I shoot out of my other smokeless this is a similar bullet more of a long range high BC bullet it tumbled as well.

 

[ADR]

For sure would try a wad. I've got some 300 grain fury's you can try if you'd like. If a snug fitted fury over a wad on top of 60 grains 4198 doesn't shoot well I wouldn't know where to begin. There's a lot of guys here that have ALOT more experience than myself so I would defer to their advice.

 

[Jcalder]

Haven't tried a wad yet just got some yesterday but it's my understanding that they help with accuracy issues not sure there going to help bullet stabilization but I'm for sure going to try them. I didn't ask Jeff about a load I know he recommends 270g Pittman Accumax and IMR 4198 around 60 grains in his CVA Scout conversions. I haven't tried the Pittman but tried an 300g Arrowhead long range bullet that I shoot out of my other smokeless this is a similar bullet more of a long range high BC bullet it tumbled as well.

Have you ran it over a chronograph. It sounds like you may have an ignition problem like I did in my first smokeless.

 

[jlanecr500]

The #1 cause of tumbling is the lack of stabilization. In sabotless sml's it is usually due to lack of rifling engagement. Engagement is achieved by obturation ( swelling of the bullet when the charge goes off). Light loads typically used in single shot conversions do not obturate as well as hotter loads for more substantial barrel diameters. This is where a dry wool wad comes into play. The wad tends to seal the pressure, delivering the kick in the pants to the entire rear surface of the bullet, prevents leakage around the bullet, and helps keep powder dry. I advise using a wad in any sabotless sml that is used in hunting.

A choked barrel ( tight at the muzzle and loose at the breech) can do the same thing. You want your bullet to have 5 to 10 pounds of resistance when seating on the powder. To check, use an analog bathroom scale. Zero the scale with the gun and ramrod on it. Then load a bullet and watch the scale as you push it down the barrel. At least 5 pounds of pressure needed to push the bullet onto the powder.

I used to have a Savage rifle action with an EABCO Savage accuracy barrel in 450 marlin (same bore as 45-70). It was a 1-14 twist. WGK has it now and it loves Barnes 275 xpb's with a wad and a load of n120.

 

[tn gunman]

I shot with sabots today and all shots stabilized it shot well with light blue harvesters and 195 Barnes expanders, beware shooting sabots with a supressor will fill it full of small pieces of the sabot, I had to take it apart and clean it after ever couple shots and check it for pluggeage after every shot which isn't a big deal because you have to take supressor off to load. This will work for hunting but not ideal. I had planned to shoot my sized 200g Hornady FTXs with the wads that I have which are veggie fiber wads, but I I walked out and forgot them, I'm going to order some dry wool wads and try them with my 200g ftx nextweek when I get back from hunting Illinois.

 

[jlanecr500]

I shot with sabots today and all shots stabilized it shot well with light blue harvesters and 195 Barnes expanders, beware shooting sabots with a supressor will fill it full of small pieces of the sabot, I had to take it apart and clean it after ever couple shots and check it for pluggeage after every shot which isn't a big deal because you have to take supressor off to load. This will work for hunting but not ideal. I had planned to shoot my sized 200g Hornady FTXs with the wads that I have which are veggie fiber wads, but I I walked out and forgot them, I'm going to order some dry wool wads and try them with my 200g ftx nextweek when I get back from hunting Illinois.

You really need to step up to a 250g bullet in a 45 if sabotless.

 

[tn gunman]

I have some 250 ftx and some 300 xtp my buddy is going to give me a few 270g pitman Accumax to try I also have some barnes 250 but I figured solids were way harder to obliterate than cup and core bullets, I'm pretty sure that bullet obliteration is the issue.

 

[jlanecr500]

One valuable bit of information that you likely have never heard. When choosing a barrel to convert or ordering an sml barrel, buy the barrel that has the narrowest lands. Narrow lands are easier for the bullet to obturate or wrap the jacket around the lands.

 

[tn gunman]

No luck with wool or veggie wads under bullet getting it to obturate, going to try some thinner jacketed bullets next, got a couple of parker ballistic extreme 250s from a friend to try if they don't work I may just abandon bullet to bore all together, and shoot saboted Barnes 195 expanders.

 

[jlanecr500]

The solids will need to be annealed. I place a piece if flat stock across a pot of cold water. Place the bullets in line on the flat stock, turn off lights, heat bullet til glow orange, tip off into water.

Since you're suppressed, you want lower velocities. Get some n110 and try 36gr with a 250gr bullet.

 

[tn gunman]

It doesn't necessarily have to be suppressed Im just trying to keep it from ringing my ears it's far from quiet even suppressed, stupid loud without, my goals were to have a light weight compact rifle to hunt out of a climber with, but if I can find some n110 I'll definitely give it a try.

 

[philsanchez76]

My smokeless mz (CVA scout conversion) shoots lights out with Hornady XTP (they must be fairly soft) but for sure any time I try to shoot a copper solid without annealing they tumble like crazy. One thing you may try is using a poly wad. Those seem to seal the barrel really tightly. Even more than veggie or wool. May be worth a try.

 

[tn gunman]

Thanks I'll definitely give the poly wads a try.

 

[Deadpool]

Clean the barrel really, really good and it will quit tumbling.

 

[jlburdge]

Any of you smokeless muzzleloader shooters have any advice on why I can't get my bullets to stabilize their tumbleing hitting target sideways at 100 yards. At 25 yards getting it on paper they punch a clean hole so they are flying right at that distance. It's a Encore 18" SSK Industries 45-70 barrel 1/14 twist converted by Jeff Hankins. I know the twist is a little bit fast for light bullets, I thought going to a heavier bullet would fix the problem but that's not the case. I'm shooting bullet to bore I've shot everything from 200-300 grain bullets. I've tried the bullets sized looser and sized so tight almost can't get them seated and same result. I've tried different powder charges from 50g-53g-55g-60g of IMR 4198 same result. I had chosen this short 18" SSK barrel because I wanted a lightweight compact smokeless to run and gun with in a climber hunting in the woods also wanted as short as possible because I'm running it suppressed. I thought maybe the supressor could be affecting the bullet but makes no difference suppressed or not same result, tumbleing bullet, however it's not very fun to shoot unsuppressed at 18" long it is stupid loud. Only thing I have left to try is shooting sabots, but can't shoot them with supressor, so if they were to work it kinda defeats the purpose of having a smokeless barrel this short. Any suggestions or pointers?

Forgot to mention ignition source, Im using modules with Federal 215M primers.

A couple of things may cause it: Too light of a bullet------too large of a load for the bullet weight you're using. Hint: always start low with your load and go up as you ck your targets for accuracy and tumbling. Too much ='s bad accuracy too little ='s tumbling

 

[tn gunman]

I've tried several combinations, I'm limited on the amount of powder with the .997 shank barrel i won't push it past 60 grains of 4198, the whole issue is the bullet will not obturate, it shoots lights out with harvester smooth blue sabots and Barnes 195 expanders.

 

[jlanecr500]

Always use the wool wads. 36gr N110. It is a fast powder and will obturate the bullet. If you choose not to use that powder, you can duplex with 10gr N110 or 10gr imrsr4759 under 50gr of 4198. The duplex will obturate the bullet. Also, direct ignition might help but do not duplex with it or use N110. Only use 4198, n120, or Reloder 7 with the direct ignition. Hankins sells that system too. If it was me, I'd duplex. The reason for the difficult obturation is land width. Look in the muzzle, that barrel likely has wide lands. When the charge goes off, the bullet expands but a wide land is hard for the bullet to wrap around. That's why the H&R's with microgroove barrels shot so well. If you're out this way on the east end, I've got lots of different projectiles, powders, and ignition systems. We will get something to shoot.