Management Buck

[fairchaser]

The real question is whether you will or need to change management practices once you have CWD? When half of your bucks have CWD and most of your 3.5 and older bucks have CWD, what do you do? If you hold to your current harvest rules, you're very likely to get an unhappy bunch of hunters that have become wildlife watchers. That 3.5 year old 130 inch buck with CWD is much less likely to make it another year and if he does, his antlers may no longer advance due to CWD. Is he now a shooter?

 

[megalomaniac]

My "management buck" strategy has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with fighting the constant battle with hunters high-grading out the best antlers. This is especially true on properties where any buck 3 1/2 or older is open to harvest. Hunters rapidly kill the top-end 3 1/2s that would have been true trophies at maturity. By offering "management bucks" as "free" bucks that don't go towards the property's/club's limit, I'm trying to encourage hunters to take out a buck that will never meet the owner's/club's standards no matter how old he gets. High-grading even occurs on properties with mature-buck-only limits. The year a buck turns 4 1/2, he gets killed if he is higher-end. The low-end mature bucks do not get killed at 4 1/2. This leaves just the low-end 4 1/2s to live on to 5 1/2 and 6 1/2.

In the past, just setting the buck limit at any buck 3 1/2 or older was good enough to get a high number of bucks to maturity. The reason being, the vast majority of hunters were good enough to kill a large number of 3 1/2 year-old bucks. That just isn't the case anymore. Hunters are getting really good at killing even mature bucks. What I'm seeing is a trend towards lower antler-point-count bucks at maturity. I strongly suspected this trend was occurring due to high-grading out the best antlers at 3 1/2 and 4 1/2. I was seeing properties with well-managed habitat producing a shockingly low percentage of mature bucks with 10 points and an equally shocking percentage that were only 6 points. Looking at census and harvest data, I would find that perhaps only 20% of 3 1/2 year-old bucks were 10-pointers but 90% of the 3 1/2 year-old bucks killed were 10-pointers. Hunters were wiping out the 10-pointers at 3 1/2 and few were living to maturity. The bucks living to maturity were the low-end 8s and 6s when they were 3 1/2.

By placing low-end 3 1/2s (and low-end mature bucks in a mature-buck-only harvest environment) on a bonus buck hit list, I was trying to give hunters more harvest opportunities that would hopefully take pressure off the top-end of each age-class. So far, the results have been beyond my wildest dreams. At the most extreme, I've seen a property that went from 25% of all mature bucks being 6 or fewer points up to where a 6-point mature buck is quite rare, and from only 20% of mature bucks having 9 or more points up to almost half of all mature bucks having 9 or more points (where it should be in that region without high-grading).

What you are describing on those clubs is exactly what has happened to my properties... not because of what we kill, but because of what the neighbors kill. They consistently kill the top end 3.5y/o's each year because they hunt based on antler score (anything over 125 is fair game to them) instead of age. It's quite rare for the top end 3.5y/o's that we pass up to survive them because they hunt 50 or more days per year with 4-6 hunters each day. As a consequence, the vast majority of mature bucks are at the bottom end of the gene pool. And what's even crazier... they sure as heck aren't going to 'waste' one of their buck tags on a 100in buck, even if he is 5.5. Thank goodness out best 3.5y/o (around 135in) broke off 2 tines right at the start of the rut... so he made it through the season!

They may be starting to come around though... they have been watching us pass up those top end 3.5y/o's for years, seeing us limit ourselves to only 1 buck of choice annually, and their hunting cabin is slap full of 125in racks and they would like to now kill something bigger.

For me, even though I know those bottom end 3.5y/os will never make anything the following year, I just don't feel right about targeting them until they reach maturity. May be a good option to let the kids take them as their bonus/cull buck though. Having a few fully mature bucks provides a lot of benefits (pheromonal suppression or reduction of young bucks participating in the rut) even though there are some risks (mature bucks more likely to injure middle aged bucks)

 

[BSK]

The real question is whether you will or need to change management practices once you have CWD? When half of your bucks have CWD and most of your 3.5 and older bucks have CWD, what do you do? If you hold to your current harvest rules, you're very likely to get an unhappy bunch of hunters that have become wildlife watchers. That 3.5 year old 130 inch buck with CWD is much less likely to make it another year and if he does, his antlers may no longer advance due to CWD. Is he now a shooter?

This is a question that, thankfully, I have not had to answer yet. Unfortunately, I will in the future.

 

[BSK]

I've killed one management buck in my hunting career because management wanted bucks for testing. I told myself I woukd only kill one if it was mature and late in the season. I shot this buck on Jan 1 three years ago. I believe he was at least 4.5 years old. My point is how do you tell paying members with 2 buck tags that they should kill management bucks? And, what if they kill a 100 inch 3.5 year old and say it was a management buck in their mind?

Although this may seem like management overkill, for properties where I've implemented a management buck program, I produce an actual photo montage of the management bucks to kill if you see one, as well as a PLEASE DO NOT KILL montage, which are very top-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s that have the greatest potential to be serious trophies at maturity. These photo montages are printed and hung in every shooting house. I want hunters to have looked at these pictures so they are not suddenly shocked by a big-racked buck and quickly pull the trigger without thinking about age. I want them - upon seeing the buck - to be able to say, "Oh, I recognize that guy. He's on the DO NOT shoot list." In the same vein, I want them keenly seeking the management bucks.

Of course, this requires a full photo census to know "who is out there." But if I'm going to implement a management buck program, I'm only going to do so when I have that data. In fact, I need that data to determine if a management program is even warranted. Am I seeing the signs of high-grading? In some situations, yes. In others, no.

And before someone asks, the least likely situation to see high-grading is the scenario of a financially successful guy who buys 300-400 acres for he and his kids to hunt one. He is far more serious about hunting than his kids. Between all the members of the family, they kill 3 bucks a year. That type of harvest density and property size is unlikely to produce high-grading, as "new" bucks will filter into the property fairly regularly. The most likely scenario to see high-grading is a 1,000-1,200 acre club with 8-10 hunters all "big buck" minded. With that kind of hunting pressure on a property that is not seeing quite as many new bucks filtering in, killing the top 2-4 3 1/2 year-old bucks year after year is very likely to produce high-grading.

 

[BSK]

This discussion of "management bucks" is a great place to once again reiterate a "truism" about deer management, and that is you cannot stockpile mature bucks. I wish I knew the reasons this is true, but I don't. However, I've seen example after example of the fact it's true. Property after property, even after years of management and photo censuses, I see the same thing, 10-12% of the total buck population is mature. Why is it that no matter how many 3 1/2s hunters pass up, the percentage of mature bucks doesn't keep climbing? I do not know the answer. Perhaps mature bucks are killing each other. Perhaps social pressures drive lesser dominant bucks away. Perhaps neighbors are killing them (the least likely scenario). I don't know the answer. All I know is I run photo censuses on larger properties for years and the percentage of the buck population that is mature hardly budges. This year I had a club set the all-time record - for any census I've conducted in the state of TN - for the percentage of the buck population that is mature, and it was only right around 15%, and that was on a very large club (thousands of acres).

 

[fairchaser]

This discussion of "management bucks" is a great place to once again reiterate a "truism" about deer management, and that is you cannot stockpile mature bucks. I wish I knew the reasons this is true, but I don't. However, I've seen example after example of the fact it's true. Property after property, even after years of management and photo censuses, I see the same thing, 10-12% of the total buck population is mature. Why is it that no matter how many 3 1/2s hunters pass up, the percentage of mature bucks doesn't keep climbing? I do not know the answer. Perhaps mature bucks are killing each other. Perhaps social pressures drive lesser dominant bucks away. Perhaps neighbors are killing them (the least likely scenario). I don't know the answer. All I know is I run photo censuses on larger properties for years and the percentage of the buck population that is mature hardly budges. This year I had a club set the all-time record - for any census I've conducted in the state of TN - for the percentage of the buck population that is mature, and it was only right around 15%, and that was on a very large club (thousands of acres).

I'm sure I don't have the right answer. But, IMHO, bucks just can't survive past 5.5 on this landscape. I've gotten one picture of a 6.5 year old buck in 13 years. I know his age from several years of trail cam pics and he was a total loner which is probably a clue to his survival. At 5.5 they just fall off a cliff.

 

[Ski]

This discussion of "management bucks" is a great place to once again reiterate a "truism" about deer management, and that is you cannot stockpile mature bucks. I wish I knew the reasons this is true, but I don't. However, I've seen example after example of the fact it's true. Property after property, even after years of management and photo censuses, I see the same thing, 10-12% of the total buck population is mature. Why is it that no matter how many 3 1/2s hunters pass up, the percentage of mature bucks doesn't keep climbing? I do not know the answer. Perhaps mature bucks are killing each other. Perhaps social pressures drive lesser dominant bucks away. Perhaps neighbors are killing them (the least likely scenario). I don't know the answer. All I know is I run photo censuses on larger properties for years and the percentage of the buck population that is mature hardly budges. This year I had a club set the all-time record - for any census I've conducted in the state of TN - for the percentage of the buck population that is mature, and it was only right around 15%, and that was on a very large club (thousands of acres).

I don't recall where I first saw or heard of it but it's proven true on every property I've ever hunted in any state. Buck age : population is a pyramid with matures at the tip and buttons & yearlings at the bottom. Every year a buck ages he progressively finds himself in a narrower peer group. Lord knows I've tried tilting the pyramid in my favor but it doesn't work. I've never seen a place top heavy with big old bucks. I have however seen a place bottom heavy with disproportionately higher young bucks. Strange how that works.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Although this may seem like management overkill, for properties where I've implemented a management buck program, I produce an actual photo montage of the management bucks to kill if you see one, as well as a PLEASE DO NOT KILL montage, which are very top-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s that have the greatest potential to be serious trophies at maturity. These photo montages are printed and hung in every shooting house. I want hunters to have looked at these pictures so they are not suddenly shocked by a big-racked buck and quickly pull the trigger without thinking about age. I want them - upon seeing the buck - to be able to say, "Oh, I recognize that guy. He's on the DO NOT shoot list." In the same vein, I want them keenly seeking the management bucks.

That's a great idea. Even though the majority of those 3.5+ bucks don't come out in our fields during daylight, just having folks something to look at while they're sitting there may deter them from shooting an upper end 2.5+ in future hunts. We share all the pics but no one studies them like me. But if they had something that they were staring at for a few hours, it just may deter a shot at a young, high-end buck at some point

 

[BSK]

That's a great idea. Even though the majority of those 3.5+ bucks don't come out in our fields during daylight, just having folks something to look at while they're sitting there may deter them from shooting an upper end 2.5+ in future hunts. We share all the pics but no one studies them like me. But if they had something that they were staring at for a few hours, it just may deter a shot at a young, high-end buck at some point

I realize some hunters feel "knowing" all the bucks on the property takes the thrill out of a "shooter" just appearing out of nowhere. But personally, knowing all the bucks doesn't take the fun out of it for me. But maybe that's just because I'm so into it. Plus, I love not having to "judge" a buck moving through heavy cover. I know in an instant every buck I see. Oh, that's buck #37. He's not on my hit list. I think it saves a lot of bucks.

 

[Ski]

I realize some hunters feel "knowing" all the bucks on the property takes the thrill out of a "shooter" just appearing out of nowhere. But personally, knowing all the bucks doesn't take the fun out of it for me.

I like knowing the bucks before I hunt. Feeds my inner serial killer

 

[deerhunter10]

I realize some hunters feel "knowing" all the bucks on the property takes the thrill out of a "shooter" just appearing out of nowhere. But personally, knowing all the bucks doesn't take the fun out of it for me. But maybe that's just because I'm so into it. Plus, I love not having to "judge" a buck moving through heavy cover. I know in an instant every buck I see. Oh, that's buck #37. He's not on my hit list. I think it saves a lot of bucks.

What crazy is how many you don't know sometimes. I have had years where cameras were just enough out of place I thought I was getting several new deer when my cameras were just not in the right spots those years. We hunt tight thick stuff to and in our opinion knowing your shooters and the ones you really want another year or 2 on is a great thing to know. Happened this year with our best deer rack wise that we really want another year on. Years in the past he would have been shot no doubt.

 

[BSK]

What crazy is how many you don't know sometimes. I have had years where cameras were just enough out of place I thought I was getting several new deer when my cameras were just not in the right spots those years. We hunt tight thick stuff to and in our opinion knowing your shooters and the ones you really want another year or 2 on is a great thing to know. Happened this year with our best deer rack wise that we really want another year on. Years in the past he would have been shot no doubt.

For the first time in many years, this year I saw a buck I didn't have on camera. I was hunting a corner of my property we had clear-cut (about 10 acres). I'm guess he was living in the little cut in the corner of the property and then heading out in the bottomlands to feed on the adjoining duck club's corn that couldn't be flooded due to the drought and wasn't travelling deeper into my property where he would have been photographed. The buck jumped up about 40 yards away in the cut and bounded away from me. All I could see was his antlers. When he finally exited the cut, now about 120 yards away, I took one look at his body and thought, "That's a sure 'nuff mature buck!" He got in a skidder road I had kept clear through the cut and started walking my way. As he walked back towards me, I had the chance to reevaluate him, and after about 5 minutes of watching him through binoculars decided he was only 3 1/2. The smaller rack (8-point grossing 113) and his massive body had fooled me (he live weighed well over 200 lbs). I eventually decided to take him as he exited the clear-cut along the skidder road (now just 40 yards away). If I had been after only mature bucks, and it had been rifle season (it was MZ) I would have made a big mistake when I first saw him! Just goes to show, having to make snap aging decisions can lead to mistakes. That's why I say knowing the bucks on your property before season opens saves bucks' lives.

 

[fairchaser]

I realize some hunters feel "knowing" all the bucks on the property takes the thrill out of a "shooter" just appearing out of nowhere. But personally, knowing all the bucks doesn't take the fun out of it for me. But maybe that's just because I'm so into it. Plus, I love not having to "judge" a buck moving through heavy cover. I know in an instant every buck I see. Oh, that's buck #37. He's not on my hit list. I think it saves a lot of bucks.

Knowing a particular buck will usually give you those extra few critical seconds to make the shot. Having to judge a deer in a few seconds accurately is not something many can do, me included. Our bucks travel such great distances that it's really hard to know them all. But it doesn't stop us from trying. Our hunters will usually not share their best buck pics with each other unless they are within their trusted circle of buddies. It's interesting how all the pics come out once a buck hits the check station. Seems that buck has been photographed by 4 or 5 different hunters across several miles around the plantation.

 

[BSK]

Knowing a particular buck will usually give you those extra few critical seconds to make the shot. Having to judge a deer in a few seconds accurately is not something many can do, me included. Our bucks travel such great distances that it's really hard to know them all. But it doesn't stop us from trying. Our hunters will usually not share their best buck pics with each other unless they are within their trusted circle of buddies. It's interesting how all the pics come out once a buck hits the check station. Seems that buck has been photographed by 4 or 5 different hunters across several miles around the plantation.

I see that kind of "competitive trail-camera pictures" on clubs all the time.

 

[knightrider]

Still cant stand the word cull or management bucks when they are in fact bucks you just dont think are good enough for you. They are still just bucks that made it to maturity and should be a prize for any hunter not degraded by the word cull.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Knowing a particular buck will usually give you those extra few critical seconds to make the shot. Having to judge a deer in a few seconds accurately is not something many can do, me included. Our bucks travel such great distances that it's really hard to know them all. But it doesn't stop us from trying. Our hunters will usually not share their best buck pics with each other unless they are within their trusted circle of buddies. It's interesting how all the pics come out once a buck hits the check station. Seems that buck has been photographed by 4 or 5 different hunters across several miles around the plantation.

This happens often, however, not at our place. Every pic is shared. What I don't understand though, is why guys want to go hunt exactly where the buck was photographed….even if that pic was at 1am?

 

[BSK]

This happens often, however, not at our place. Every pic is shared. What I don't understand though, is why guys want to go hunt exactly where the buck was photographed….even if that pic was at 1am?

Can't tell you how often I've killed a particular buck way outside the range of where I normal get him on camera most frequently. Happens all the time, especially during the rut.

 

[BSK]

Still cant stand the word cull or management bucks when they are in fact bucks you just dont think are good enough for you. They are still just bucks that made it to maturity and should be a prize for any hunter not degraded by the word cull.

Not arguing against your position in the least knightrider. For me, the use of "management bucks" is a particular management practice used to produce a particular result. It certainly is not for everybody or every property. And on an ironic note, my use of management bucks is designed to counteract the negative results of "big antler" hunting (antler high grading) to make "big antler" hunters happier! Go figure...

 

[knightrider]

Not arguing against your position in the least knightrider. For me, the use of "management bucks" is a particular management practice used to produce a particular result. It certainly is not for everybody or every property. And on an ironic note, my use of management bucks is designed to counteract the negative results of "big antler" hunting (antler high grading) to make "big antler" hunters happier! Go figure...

Completely understand brother, antler highgrading is the devil of management strategies

 

[Hillbilly Hunter]

The real question is whether you will or need to change management practices once you have CWD? When half of your bucks have CWD and most of your 3.5 and older bucks have CWD, what do you do? If you hold to your current harvest rules, you're very likely to get an unhappy bunch of hunters that have become wildlife watchers. That 3.5 year old 130 inch buck with CWD is much less likely to make it another year and if he does, his antlers may no longer advance due to CWD. Is he now a shooter?

I will not chance what I shoot. If they have a disease, they have a chance of living and building an immunity to it. If you kill them because you think they may have or could get a disease, there is not chance for them to live and build immunity whether are currently sick or not.