Management of Cedars... (Updated)

[DoubleRidge]

Looking for some ideas or suggestions on how to manage two areas on our property that are heavy with old cedar. As I mentioned in a previous post when I was younger these two areas were truly thickets with broom sage and the cedars that had low limbs.....today that's not the case, low limbs are dead 6 foot up, ground is shaded out, zero browse...one area is close to 11 acre the other is around 2 or 3 acre.

On the rest of our property it's majority hardwood and we have completed a TSI project which started in 2019 and ended early 2020....but these two cedar stands remain....talking with Forester recently and he has provided me the name of a company that will harvest cedar if you have enough tons per acre....he believes we have enough.... company has the equipment that cuts the tree, strips the limbs on the spot, cuts log to length.
So while it's nothing like hardwood...there is potential income to consider....this area also contains a random poplar, dogwood and maybe a red oak or two. (Sorry to ramble but I'm struggling with this project)

My concern is the large cedar thicket is in a major travel corridor of the farm... changing anything in this area makes my palms sweat....a portion of this thicket has always been considered "refuge" and we never enter it......BUT I know this ground isn't providing good bedding cover anymore....and very little to any nutritional value.....just torn being that it's going to be a significant change....Dr. Grant said once "good deer cover" is from the ground up to 36"....limbs slapping you in face at 5 to 6' high isn't good deer cover....I can see 80 yards in any direction in these "thickets"

So......if we cut the cedar....our goal will not be to create new areas for cultivated food plots...we currently have enough tillable ground to hurt my wallet and keep us busy.

Question is....if we cut these cedars what is the best option afterwards? Let nature have it's way? Try to plant different grasses in pockets? considered planting some mast producers? combination of all the above?

In the long run I know these changes will be better for the deer.... but how they react, being in a major travel corridor, makes me nervous......again, sorry to ramble, but I'm struggling with this project.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Fire up the Stihl. Once light hits the ground all types of good stuff will emerge. In my opinion the best place for a cedar, in terms of wildlife habitat, is laying on the ground.

 

[MickThompson]

Cut and burn to keep the cedars from taking back over

 

[buckaroo]

I have been cuttin mine for years, only like them when their head high, they are the most aggravating tree to cut, so many limbs

 

[BSK]

Will cutting all the cedars change travel patterns? Almost certainly. But that's the temporary price you pay for major long-term benefits of "new" habitat. I can't tell you how many times I've "destroyed" a long-standing deer travel pattern to create better habitat for the future. And getting used to how deer use the new habitat can take a year or two. But everything eventually cycles back around.

The problem with planting something in the cut area is that cedar glades usually develop because the location is abandoned poor-quality pasture (usually limestone outcrops). The site may not be appropriate for anything but cedars and junk hardwoods. But while those things are naturally reestablishing themselves, the habitat could be great for cover again.

Another possible option is simply to cut out about 2/3s of the cedars, leaving just isolated cedars with branches not touching each other. The sunlight on the ground between trees should reestablish the "glade" type of habitat, with tall grasses growing between trees.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

The best thing you could do is to cut them (whether you sell them or let them lay) and wait 2 years and then burn. Regardless of what you do (if you cut), you'll have sunlight on the ground and will swiftly have grasses and forbs. As always, keep us updated!

 

[MickThompson]

It'll be a right sporty burn too

 

[DoubleRidge]

Will cutting all the cedars change travel patterns? Almost certainly. But that's the temporary price you pay for major long-term benefits of "new" habitat. I can't tell you how many times I've "destroyed" a long-standing deer travel pattern to create better habitat for the future. And getting used to how deer use the new habitat can take a year or two. But everything eventually cycles back around.

The problem with planting something in the cut area is that cedar glades usually develop because the location is abandoned poor-quality pasture (usually limestone outcrops). The site may not be appropriate for anything but cedars and junk hardwoods. But while those things are naturally reestablishing themselves, the habitat could be great for cover again.

Another possible option is simply to cut out about 2/3s of the cedars, leaving just isolated cedars with branches not touching each other. The sunlight on the ground between trees should reestablish the "glade" type of habitat, with tall grasses growing between trees.

BSK....your comments about "the problem with planting something in cut area" reminded me of something interesting our Forester shared with us at the beginning of our TSI project.....he researched old soil maps and described these two areas as "old field growth timber"....so your thoughts are echoing portions of his management plan.

Really like the idea of possiblly cutting out 2/3rds of the cedars to reestablish the "glade" type of habitat, with tall grasses growing between trees....this seems to be a happy medium..... improve the habitat without totally blowing it up..... Wondering if there would be any benefit to selecting random open areas in the cut zone to seed with native tall grasses....or would it be better to just let it go naturally?

 

[DoubleRidge]

The best thing you could do is to cut them (whether you sell them or let them lay) and wait 2 years and then burn. Regardless of what you do (if you cut), you'll have sunlight on the ground and will swiftly have grasses and forbs. As always, keep us updated!

I've read allot on the topic and no doubt burning is an option that brings many benefits....my only fear is totally changing this area is going to change a major travel corridor.....and burning that size area full of cedar spooks me a little... Our Forrester said if we decided to burn that assistance was available through the state forestry division for around $25 to $35 per acre......just not sure we want to level the area.....but certainly want and need it to be thicker than it is currently....entering year two following the TSI project we're going to have all types of new growth and browse on the majority of the property plus multiple food plots....so we would just like this area to just be thicker without totally changing travel patterns....if that's possible.

 

[smyrnagc]

You might want to look into Hinge Cutting some of the trees. From what I have read it will open up certain areas for forest floor vegitation and also provide habitat for safe bedding/security. It sounds like this area is already a travel corridor so they will more than likely continue to use it and it could be a safe bedding area.

 

[BSK]

BSK....your comments about "the problem with planting something in cut area" reminded me of something interesting our Forester shared with us at the beginning of our TSI project.....he researched old soil maps and described these two areas as "old field growth timber"....so your thoughts are echoing portions of his management plan.

Really like the idea of possiblly cutting out 2/3rds of the cedars to reestablish the "glade" type of habitat, with tall grasses growing between trees....this seems to be a happy medium..... improve the habitat without totally blowing it up..... Wondering if there would be any benefit to selecting random open areas in the cut zone to seed with native tall grasses....or would it be better to just let it go naturally?

If you look at old aerial photos, you will often find that today's cedar glades were pasture in the 1950s. That was the case with Dr. Woods' "Proving Grounds" property. All the current cedar glades had been very poor-quality pasture in the 1920s to 50s, which once abandoned, turned to cedars.

You can try establishing Native Grasses, but usually, that seed is already in the ground just waiting for sunlight.

 

[DoubleRidge]

You might want to look into Hinge Cutting some of the trees. From what I have read it will open up certain areas for forest floor vegitation and also provide habitat for safe bedding/security. It sounds like this area is already a travel corridor so they will more than likely continue to use it and it could be a safe bedding area.

No doubt a portion of this area is considered bedding area and the back portion is included in what we have deemed refuge or sanctuary.....it's just gotten so mature that the cover at ground level is basically gone or shaded out.

 

[BSK]

It'll be a right sporty burn too

I remember a project I was working on the Cumberland Plateau. Past logging of mixed hardwoods and native pine had left a lot of slash and tops lying around. We push it up into a pile and lit it up. The site had very sandy soils, and after the pile burned down we found the sandy soils under the burn pile had turned to glass! That's hot!

 

[BSK]

You might want to look into Hinge Cutting some of the trees. From what I have read it will open up certain areas for forest floor vegitation and also provide habitat for safe bedding/security. It sounds like this area is already a travel corridor so they will more than likely continue to use it and it could be a safe bedding area.

Hinge-cutting is designed to keep cut hardwood trees alive, so the tipped over trunk puts out new growth for cover and food. Unfortunately, that doesn't work with evergreens like pine and cedar.

 

[DoubleRidge]

If you look at old aerial photos, you will often find that today's cedar glades were pasture in the 1950s. That was the case with Dr. Woods' "Proving Grounds" property. All the current cedar glades had been very poor-quality pasture in the 1920s to 50s, which once abandoned, turned to cedars.

You can try establishing Native Grasses, but usually, that seed is already in the ground just waiting for sunlight.

Interesting you mention aerial photos....the Forester mentioned old field growth from the 1950s and even earlier ...which makes sense....one portion of this area actually has the old terraces that I'm told were once created to reduce erosion.....also makes sense that this area has a few random poplar and dogwood....but again I'd guess it's 85% cedars.....and from satellite images you can clearly see where the "old field" was verses the hardwood stand.

And there are a few very small areas that are open enough that grasses do grow....so I bet your right that the seed bank is there waiting on sunlight.

 

[MickThompson]

If you look at old aerial photos, you will often find that today's cedar glades were pasture in the 1950s. That was the case with Dr. Woods' "Proving Grounds" property. All the current cedar glades had been very poor-quality pasture in the 1920s to 50s, which once abandoned, turned to cedars.

You can try establishing Native Grasses, but usually, that seed is already in the ground just waiting for sunlight.

Historic-aerials.com is a great resource for going "back in time".

During the war efforts (WW I and II) farmers were encouraged to clear anything they could grow corn or a cow on. Short-sighted, and the land was quickly abandoned afterwards, as commodity prices contracted back to normal. Best way to tell if a field used to be present is to look at the trees- if the species are spread by wind or bird with little oak or hickory, it was probably cleared. Also look for very large trees with massive spreading crowns aka wolf trees. These were likely shade trees for livestock.

 

[Tom Collins]

If you look at old aerial photos, you will often find that today's cedar glades were pasture in the 1950s. That was the case with Dr. Woods' "Proving Grounds" property. All the current cedar glades had been very poor-quality pasture in the 1920s to 50s, which once abandoned, turned to cedars.

You can try establishing Native Grasses, but usually, that seed is already in the ground just waiting for sunlight.

Around me, when a lot of the dairies went out, a lot of cedar thickets came in, I know of many fields that were once corn that are now massive cedar thickets. This was once fairly quality ground. I'm amazed at how quickly cedar can take over.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

You can try establishing Native Grasses, but usually, that seed is already in the ground just waiting for sunlight.

Agreed. I know when we've cut in the past, there are literally hundreds of different "greens" growing in there. I need to get that Forest plant of the southeast book you recommended for when everything starts growing this spring after our logging operation is complete.

Those native seeds will stay dormant in the soil for decades. They just need sunlight

 

[DoubleRidge]

Historic-aerials.com is a great resource for going "back in time".

During the war efforts (WW I and II) farmers were encouraged to clear anything they could grow corn or a cow on. Short-sighted, and the land was quickly abandoned afterwards, as commodity prices contracted back to normal. Best way to tell if a field used to be present is to look at the trees- if the species are spread by wind or bird with little oak or hickory, it was probably cleared. Also look for very large trees with massive spreading crowns aka wolf trees. These were likely shade trees for livestock.

Very interesting....spent some time this morning on Historic-aerials.com that you recommended and I can clearly see the field in 1954 that is now the cedar thicket I'm talking about....thanks for sharing..... interesting stuff.

 

[Tom Collins]

Historic-aerials.com is a great resource for going "back in time".

During the war efforts (WW I and II) farmers were encouraged to clear anything they could grow corn or a cow on. Short-sighted, and the land was quickly abandoned afterwards, as commodity prices contracted back to normal. Best way to tell if a field used to be present is to look at the trees- if the species are spread by wind or bird with little oak or hickory, it was probably cleared. Also look for very large trees with massive spreading crowns aka wolf trees. These were likely shade trees for livestock.

Thank you for posting this. Had no idea this database existed. Makes me a sad to look back at all the habitat that has been lost in my hometown, ironically, there are much higher deer and turkey populations now. Both were practically non existent in those days. But on the flip side, I can definitely see why the populations of quail have suffered so tremendously.

 

[BSK]

Agreed. I know when we've cut in the past, there are literally hundreds of different "greens" growing in there. I need to get that Forest plant of the southeast book you recommended for when everything starts growing this spring after our logging operation is complete.

Those native seeds will stay dormant in the soil for decades. They just need sunlight

In experiments with creating openings in the mature forests of the Smokies, once sunlight was allowed on the ground in old-growth forest areas, plants that had not been seen in the area in over a 100 years germinated. The seed had been lying in the ground all that time, just waiting for the right conditions.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Historic aerials is indeed an excellent resource; I found one from 1946 of my farm. Also, go for a walk with a logger or forester sometime...you talkin'bout someone who can read the land. Amazing what their eye and experience can see that we don't pick up on immediately.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Historic aerials is indeed an excellent resource; I found one from 1946 of my farm. Also, go for a walk with a logger or forester sometime...you talkin'bout someone who can read the land. Amazing what their eye and experience can see that we don't pick up on immediately.

Absolutely agree.....first time we walked our place with our Forester I was amazed at the things he was pointing out and explaining....and as he made recommendations I would ask why? Not in doubt....but wanting to learn more and to understand his reasoning....hiring him to develop a management plan was money and time we'll spent....we still talk "habitat" today.....and your correct....those guys can "read land".

 

[DoubleRidge]

In experiments with creating openings in the mature forests of the Smokies, once sunlight was allowed on the ground in old-growth forest areas, plants that had not been seen in the area in over a 100 years germinated. The seed had been lying in the ground all that time, just waiting for the right conditions.

That's amazing....truly fascinating!

 

[TNTreeman]

In my area in Williamson county typically if you see an area where there is nothing but cedars and an occasional Osage orange it's bc nothing else ( tree wise) can thrive there. Usually extremely rocky. My dad would see a piece of ground like this and say " it'll never perk" for a septic system. When I cut cedars down in yards and grind the stumps although not always visible I always end up hitting rocks ( limestone) in and around the tree and root system. I'm sure you can get grasses, briars and other things to grow especially if you burn but at least in this area it's to rocky to plant more beneficial trees and them thrive. This cedar= rock theory may not apply at all to other areas but it's been my experience here.

 

[BSK]

In my area in Williamson county typically if you see an area where there is nothing but cedars and an occasional Osage orange it's bc nothing else ( tree wise) can thrive there. Usually extremely rocky. My dad would see a piece of ground like this and say " it'll never perk" for a septic system. When I cut cedars down in yards and grind the stumps although not always visible I always end up hitting rocks ( limestone) in and around the tree and root system. I'm sure you can get grasses, briars and other things to grow especially if you burn but at least in this area it's to rocky to plant more beneficial trees and them thrive. This cedar= rock theory may not apply at all to other areas but it's been my experience here.

This is correct, especially in Middle TN. The "Cedars of Lebanon" and all the similar habitat in that region, is because of the type of limestone that underlies the area. In fact, much of the Nashville basin is exposed Ordovician age limestones and shales, which do not produce good soils when near the surface.

 

[Hridge]

Looking for some ideas or suggestions on how to manage two areas on our property that are heavy with old cedar. As I mentioned in a previous post when I was younger these two areas were truly thickets with broom sage and the cedars that had low limbs.....today that's not the case, low limbs are dead 6 foot up, ground is shaded out, zero browse...one area is close to 11 acre the other is around 2 or 3 acre.

On the rest of our property it's majority hardwood and we have completed a TSI project which started in 2019 and ended early 2020....but these two cedar stands remain....talking with Forester recently and he has provided me the name of a company that will harvest cedar if you have enough tons per acre....he believes we have enough.... company has the equipment that cuts the tree, strips the limbs on the spot, cuts log to length.
So while it's nothing like hardwood...there is potential income to consider....this area also contains a random poplar, dogwood and maybe a red oak or two. (Sorry to ramble but I'm struggling with this project)

My concern is the large cedar thicket is in a major travel corridor of the farm... changing anything in this area makes my palms sweat....a portion of this thicket has always been considered "refuge" and we never enter it......BUT I know this ground isn't providing good bedding cover anymore....and very little to any nutritional value.....just torn being that it's going to be a significant change....Dr. Grant said once "good deer cover" is from the ground up to 36"....limbs slapping you in face at 5 to 6' high isn't good deer cover....I can see 80 yards in any direction in these "thickets"

So......if we cut the cedar....our goal will not be to create new areas for cultivated food plots...we currently have enough tillable ground to hurt my wallet and keep us busy.

Question is....if we cut these cedars what is the best option afterwards? Let nature have it's way? Try to plant different grasses in pockets? considered planting some mast producers? combination of all the above?

In the long run I know these changes will be better for the deer.... but how they react, being in a major travel corridor, makes me nervous......again, sorry to ramble, but I'm struggling with this project.

I have dealt with this issue. Lots of great suggestions in these responses! What I think would be appropriate is to thin the cedars to let sunlight hit the ground. If it's truly a cedar stand then I seriously doubt the ground will be tillable due to rock outcroppings. Deer love to bed under a cedar in bad weather situations. If you thin them and let nature do it's thing, sunlight will provide enough sunligh to grow cover. If you can get a disk in the ground then I would say open up large areas in the stand and let the areas grow up naturally. Anything you do is going to be a 3-5 year deal to get it back how you want it. Lots of great information in these responses and I think any of them would work.

 

[paleohunter]

Cedars when small can provide good cover for deer. One of the downsides to cedars is that they consume a large amount of moisture from the ground. By removing some they will help other plants not only get additional moisture but sunlight as well. I would get the soil check and maybe incorporate some American Chestnuts and elderberries to give addition food sources to your deer. Anytime you can get sunlight back to your growth area is beneficial. Also think about planting some honeysuckle. Fertilize it in the spring and the deer will come to it like a magnet. Good luck.

 

[MickThompson]

Cedars when small can provide good cover for deer. One of the downsides to cedars is that they consume a large amount of moisture from the ground. By removing some they will help other plants not only get additional moisture but sunlight as well. I would get the soil check and maybe incorporate some American Chestnuts and elderberries to give addition food sources to your deer. Anytime you can get sunlight back to your growth area is beneficial. Also think about planting some honeysuckle. Fertilize it in the spring and the deer will come to it like a magnet. Good luck.

On this note, chinkapin oak and shumard oak are commonly scattered in cedar stands. They grow well on those same limestone soils. I'd seek them out and do a full release on any I find.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Really appreciate all of the input and suggestions provided. This week I'm going to contact the company that our Forester recommended to see if we can schedule a meeting. Hoping there is enough tonnage of cedar that they will be interested in the thinning approach. Hoping to target taking out 2/3rds of the big cedar so there is sunlight hitting the ground between them....then let the natural seed bank take off....if any of the areas are open enough I may run a disk lightly through them to stimulate new growth.....and as mentioned the soil likely isn't suitable for any new planting but for the few mast producers present in the area we will target cleaning out around them good so there's less competition for nutrients and moisture.

Thanks again for the suggestions and confirmation....I had reservations about making drastic changes in this area but this plan makes sense.... improve the habitat without completely leveling the area.