Management of Cedars... (Updated)

[BSK]

Agreed. I know when we've cut in the past, there are literally hundreds of different "greens" growing in there. I need to get that Forest plant of the southeast book you recommended for when everything starts growing this spring after our logging operation is complete.

Those native seeds will stay dormant in the soil for decades. They just need sunlight

In experiments with creating openings in the mature forests of the Smokies, once sunlight was allowed on the ground in old-growth forest areas, plants that had not been seen in the area in over a 100 years germinated. The seed had been lying in the ground all that time, just waiting for the right conditions.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Historic aerials is indeed an excellent resource; I found one from 1946 of my farm. Also, go for a walk with a logger or forester sometime...you talkin'bout someone who can read the land. Amazing what their eye and experience can see that we don't pick up on immediately.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Historic aerials is indeed an excellent resource; I found one from 1946 of my farm. Also, go for a walk with a logger or forester sometime...you talkin'bout someone who can read the land. Amazing what their eye and experience can see that we don't pick up on immediately.

Absolutely agree.....first time we walked our place with our Forester I was amazed at the things he was pointing out and explaining....and as he made recommendations I would ask why? Not in doubt....but wanting to learn more and to understand his reasoning....hiring him to develop a management plan was money and time we'll spent....we still talk "habitat" today.....and your correct....those guys can "read land".

 

[DoubleRidge]

In experiments with creating openings in the mature forests of the Smokies, once sunlight was allowed on the ground in old-growth forest areas, plants that had not been seen in the area in over a 100 years germinated. The seed had been lying in the ground all that time, just waiting for the right conditions.

That's amazing....truly fascinating!

 

[TNTreeman]

In my area in Williamson county typically if you see an area where there is nothing but cedars and an occasional Osage orange it's bc nothing else ( tree wise) can thrive there. Usually extremely rocky. My dad would see a piece of ground like this and say " it'll never perk" for a septic system. When I cut cedars down in yards and grind the stumps although not always visible I always end up hitting rocks ( limestone) in and around the tree and root system. I'm sure you can get grasses, briars and other things to grow especially if you burn but at least in this area it's to rocky to plant more beneficial trees and them thrive. This cedar= rock theory may not apply at all to other areas but it's been my experience here.

 

[BSK]

In my area in Williamson county typically if you see an area where there is nothing but cedars and an occasional Osage orange it's bc nothing else ( tree wise) can thrive there. Usually extremely rocky. My dad would see a piece of ground like this and say " it'll never perk" for a septic system. When I cut cedars down in yards and grind the stumps although not always visible I always end up hitting rocks ( limestone) in and around the tree and root system. I'm sure you can get grasses, briars and other things to grow especially if you burn but at least in this area it's to rocky to plant more beneficial trees and them thrive. This cedar= rock theory may not apply at all to other areas but it's been my experience here.

This is correct, especially in Middle TN. The "Cedars of Lebanon" and all the similar habitat in that region, is because of the type of limestone that underlies the area. In fact, much of the Nashville basin is exposed Ordovician age limestones and shales, which do not produce good soils when near the surface.

 

[Hridge]

Looking for some ideas or suggestions on how to manage two areas on our property that are heavy with old cedar. As I mentioned in a previous post when I was younger these two areas were truly thickets with broom sage and the cedars that had low limbs.....today that's not the case, low limbs are dead 6 foot up, ground is shaded out, zero browse...one area is close to 11 acre the other is around 2 or 3 acre.

On the rest of our property it's majority hardwood and we have completed a TSI project which started in 2019 and ended early 2020....but these two cedar stands remain....talking with Forester recently and he has provided me the name of a company that will harvest cedar if you have enough tons per acre....he believes we have enough.... company has the equipment that cuts the tree, strips the limbs on the spot, cuts log to length.
So while it's nothing like hardwood...there is potential income to consider....this area also contains a random poplar, dogwood and maybe a red oak or two. (Sorry to ramble but I'm struggling with this project)

My concern is the large cedar thicket is in a major travel corridor of the farm... changing anything in this area makes my palms sweat....a portion of this thicket has always been considered "refuge" and we never enter it......BUT I know this ground isn't providing good bedding cover anymore....and very little to any nutritional value.....just torn being that it's going to be a significant change....Dr. Grant said once "good deer cover" is from the ground up to 36"....limbs slapping you in face at 5 to 6' high isn't good deer cover....I can see 80 yards in any direction in these "thickets"

So......if we cut the cedar....our goal will not be to create new areas for cultivated food plots...we currently have enough tillable ground to hurt my wallet and keep us busy.

Question is....if we cut these cedars what is the best option afterwards? Let nature have it's way? Try to plant different grasses in pockets? considered planting some mast producers? combination of all the above?

In the long run I know these changes will be better for the deer.... but how they react, being in a major travel corridor, makes me nervous......again, sorry to ramble, but I'm struggling with this project.

I have dealt with this issue. Lots of great suggestions in these responses! What I think would be appropriate is to thin the cedars to let sunlight hit the ground. If it's truly a cedar stand then I seriously doubt the ground will be tillable due to rock outcroppings. Deer love to bed under a cedar in bad weather situations. If you thin them and let nature do it's thing, sunlight will provide enough sunligh to grow cover. If you can get a disk in the ground then I would say open up large areas in the stand and let the areas grow up naturally. Anything you do is going to be a 3-5 year deal to get it back how you want it. Lots of great information in these responses and I think any of them would work.

 

[paleohunter]

Cedars when small can provide good cover for deer. One of the downsides to cedars is that they consume a large amount of moisture from the ground. By removing some they will help other plants not only get additional moisture but sunlight as well. I would get the soil check and maybe incorporate some American Chestnuts and elderberries to give addition food sources to your deer. Anytime you can get sunlight back to your growth area is beneficial. Also think about planting some honeysuckle. Fertilize it in the spring and the deer will come to it like a magnet. Good luck.

 

[MickThompson]

Cedars when small can provide good cover for deer. One of the downsides to cedars is that they consume a large amount of moisture from the ground. By removing some they will help other plants not only get additional moisture but sunlight as well. I would get the soil check and maybe incorporate some American Chestnuts and elderberries to give addition food sources to your deer. Anytime you can get sunlight back to your growth area is beneficial. Also think about planting some honeysuckle. Fertilize it in the spring and the deer will come to it like a magnet. Good luck.

On this note, chinkapin oak and shumard oak are commonly scattered in cedar stands. They grow well on those same limestone soils. I'd seek them out and do a full release on any I find.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Really appreciate all of the input and suggestions provided. This week I'm going to contact the company that our Forester recommended to see if we can schedule a meeting. Hoping there is enough tonnage of cedar that they will be interested in the thinning approach. Hoping to target taking out 2/3rds of the big cedar so there is sunlight hitting the ground between them....then let the natural seed bank take off....if any of the areas are open enough I may run a disk lightly through them to stimulate new growth.....and as mentioned the soil likely isn't suitable for any new planting but for the few mast producers present in the area we will target cleaning out around them good so there's less competition for nutrients and moisture.

Thanks again for the suggestions and confirmation....I had reservations about making drastic changes in this area but this plan makes sense.... improve the habitat without completely leveling the area.

 

[TNTreeman]

I would heavily lime the cleared area , it will be very acidic.

 

[paleohunter]

On this note, chinkapin oak and shumard oak are commonly scattered in cedar stands. They grow well on those same limestone soils. I'd seek them out and do a full release on any I find.

Deer love the Shumard and they fall later in the season than white oaks.

 

[Granddaddy]

Just think beyond the immediate benefit of removing the cedars (cutting or burning). Yes it will yield native plants, grasses etc which have almost immediate browse benefit but after 3-5yrs you will have to deal with succession plants, usually low-benefit woody plants which will provide thick cover for several more years but after that you'll be right back where you are now. Maintaining cutovers in native grasses is generally more difficult than establishing & maintaining perennial food plots IMO. Just pointing that out, not necessarily suggesting food plots. Given you have mature hardwood, I'd suggest you need the cover more than food. I'd suggest removing the cedars but then planting pines that would give you about 10 yrs of beneficial bedding cover if you don't release the pines with chemicals during that period. You can also plant edges of the cutover with bushes &/or fruit trees that have food value. If you have other areas that could also be cut (5-10 yrs later) you can begin to have a system of cover & succession areas without a lot of annual work.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Just think beyond the immediate benefit of removing the cedars (cutting or burning). Yes it will yield native plants, grasses etc which have almost immediate browse benefit but after 3-5yrs you will have to deal with succession plants, usually low-benefit woody plants which will provide thick cover for several more years but after that you'll be right back where you are now. Maintaining cutovers in native grasses is generally more difficult than establishing & maintaining perennial food plots IMO. Just pointing that out, not necessarily suggesting food plots. Given you have mature hardwood, I'd suggest you need the cover more than food. I'd suggest removing the cedars but then planting pines that would give you about 10 yrs of beneficial bedding cover if you don't release the pines with chemicals during that period. You can also plant edges of the cutover with bushes &/or fruit trees that have food value. If you have other areas that could also be cut (5-10 yrs later) you can begin to have a system of cover & succession areas without a lot of annual work.

You bring up several interesting points to consider....I have thought about short term vs long term effects along with future management efforts required to keep the area productive....goal for this area is certainly a bedding area, refuge or sanctuary...where deer can go....I like the idea of incorporation of pine into the area as well as planting the outskirts with bushes/fruit trees that add food value....currently to the north and to the south west of the large thicket we have active food plots.....hoping to meet with the company soon who actually harvest cedars to see if they are interested.....the Forester we worked with on our hardwood TSI project believes we have enough tonnage to get them on the property....we'll see....appreciate all the input and ideas....thanks.

 

[Monk74]

11 acres there will be a massive amount of slash. The piles will cost $ to burn or take years to decay( but great small game cover). Also they'll cover up ground from sunlight. Not to mention the ruts, ect left by logging equipment.It will open up the understory but, there's a reason cedars are growing there. It seems like a good area where mature bucks isolate and lock down doe's. I suggest testing any ideas on the smaller 2-3 acre size spots you talked about. Learn from good and bad results. Adapt and keep going. I like your style. Best of luck! Post pictures please. Obviously a lot of people are interested in your project.

 

[DoubleRidge]

11 acres there will be a massive amount of slash. The piles will cost $ to burn or take years to decay( but great small game cover). Also they'll cover up ground from sunlight. Not to mention the ruts, ect left by logging equipment.It will open up the understory but, there's a reason cedars are growing there. It seems like a good area where mature bucks isolate and lock down doe's. I suggest testing any ideas on the smaller 2-3 acre size spots you talked about. Learn from good and bad results. Adapt and keep going. I like your style. Best of luck! Post pictures please. Obviously a lot of people are interested in your project.

Great point on the amount of slash on the ground. On that topic...one person told me the cedars are cut and taken to an area then stripped of limbs and when they leave you will have piles of limbs in that area.....another person told me the machine they use to cut with will strip the limbs and cut the log at the location the tree is cut?.....not sure which way this operation works? Plenty of questions?

I did speak with the owner of the company this afternoon. He's reviewing aerial images of our place with some type of software where he can evaluate the potential...can't remember the name of the software? Sounded interesting though......he said after he reviews the aerial images we will meet and walk the property in person and discuss options. Looking forward to meeting with him.... but unfortunately he's already told me he's 6 months out minimum and it will likely be longer....he has two crews working now and both are booked up. I guess with so few loggers dealing in only cedar they stay busy.....my understanding is most of it gets chipped into pet bedding material with some larger prime logs being sawn.... anyway....got off topic....I did explain to him the goal of improving wildlife habitat and what we hoped to accomplish and he seems to be very knowledgeable on the topic....looking forward to getting started but it sounds like it's going to be some time before we get going...but ill take pics and share what's learned along the way.

 

[Boll Weevil]

Just occurred to me to ask, how big are these cedars? DBH.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Just occurred to me to ask, how big are these cedars? DBH.

Vary in size ...hadn't measured...just guessing...but there are plenty in the 10 to 12" DBH range...with some larger and some smaller...next time I'm there I'll measure a sample...there are a few that come to mind I want to measure out of curiosity....look huge to me.

 

[MickThompson]

I wouldn't cut down one conifer to simply plant another. Pines don't do well on cedar sites and you'll be right back where you were within 7 years if they do grow well.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I wouldn't cut down one conifer to simply plant another. Pines don't do well on cedar sites and you'll be right back where you were within 7 years if they do grow well.

Looking forward to meeting with the owner of the company (who is also a Forester) in person to discuss options but the current plan is to thin the cedar stand and open the canopy, allow sunlight in and encourage native grasses that were once present...and while there is a few scattered poplar and dogwood it's dominated by large older cedar....so hoping that by thinning the large cedars and allowing sunlight in we will create more diversity in the area...improve the bedding area/sanctuary.....the catch is....do we have enough tonnage for them to move equipment and take the job? Really hoping so....generate a little income and improve habitat...win-win......should know more after we meet and walk the area.