Looking for buck high-grading

[BSK]

IMO, most TN "buck" hunters who have the desire to kill a buck each season are going to shoot top end bucks from each cohort (2.5s, 3.5s, etc). Not all hunters, but most. Essentially, they are going to hunt X number of days and shoot at the first "good buck" they see. Many times, that first good buck is the careless rutting 2.5/3.5 year old buck with above average headgear that loves to roam daylight hours in November.

I have hunted in hardcore QDM/TDM clubs and "it's brown it's down" clubs, and the majority of TN deer hunters who must kill a buck annually high grade the standing crop of bucks that are on the landscape. No two ways about it, they are focused on shooting the best antlers per age class, thus leaving the underperformers to live, breed, fight and pass on their genetics in out years.

I agree with this, and I'm completely guilty. I want to shoot a decent buck each year. That is what I enjoy. I will kill the first "decent" 3 1/2+ year-old buck I see, which means most years an above average 3 1/2. Am I high-grading the buck population? Yup. But I can live with that. Everything is a trade-off.

 

[TheLBLman]

I do this year in and year out, but I do not think I "alone" make much of a difference in the free range herd in my area. Why? Because I know most of the neighbors do not subscribe to this approach. It's their land, they can do as they please.

I'm sure just how much difference, what you do or don't makes, certainly varies from one area to another. But it's 100% that a particular top-antlered 2 1/2-yr-old buck won't live to 3 1/2 when YOU kill it. In most circumstances, it would have to be less than 100% someone else might, and as the season progresses (like post-rut) a particular buck's odds of survival sky-rocket.

But there's another aspect & reason for passing up those top-antlered 2 1/2's, which has nothing to with their survival, but everything to do with your own current year success in killing an older, larger antlered buck!

When you kill that younger buck (regardless his headgear), YOU just reduced your own odds at a mature buck with larger antlers. If there were a 1-buck limit, you just made it 100% you would have no more opportunity for something better. This is a part of why there appears to be much less antler high-grading in KY (although I personally prefer a 2-buck limit).

What many hunters apparently do not understand, is that very often, the older bucks will trail younger bucks, often by a distance of 200 yds or more, may be just 5 to 15 minutes, but not visible to the hunter unless he passes up the buck(s) coming along first. I like to say they "bring up the rear". I have many times been rewarded for my trigger restraint & patience just because of this.

So although you may only slightly increase the odds the buck you pass survives, you may dramatically increase your own odds at killing an older, larger antlered buck.

 

[TheLBLman]

IMO, most TN "buck" hunters who have the desire to kill a buck each season are going to shoot top end bucks from each cohort (2.5s, 3.5s, etc). . . . . .Many times, that first good buck is the careless rutting 2.5/3.5 year old buck with above average headgear that loves to roam daylight hours in November.

. . . . . the majority of TN deer hunters who must kill a buck annually high grade the standing crop of bucks that are on the landscape. No two ways about it, they are focused on shooting the best antlers per age class, thus leaving the underperformers to live, breed, fight and pass on their genetics in out years.

Agree. And it's not just "many times" but in fact MOST TIMES, that first good buck will be a typical careless 2.5/3.5 yr old buck. And more times than most believe, there is a 4 1/2 or older buck trailing along behind that younger buck!

But if you target 5 1/2 & older bucks, even if you more specifically target the largest antlered of those fully mature bucks, in terms of antler high-grading, you're doing little to no damage since the bucks you're taking are now at the end of their cycle, maxed out on their antler development, and essentially done breeding & living their life cycle.

In the TN ridge & hollow lands (much of Stewart & Humphreys counties) I believe the majority of 6 1/2-yr-old bucks which might survive hunting season, those rare survivors then simply end up dying of "natural causes" before mid-March (not living to see 7 1/2). "Natural causes" appear to be most commonly some combination of pneumonia, aged weakness, and predation by dogs & coyotes. It also appears that when they shed their antlers, that blood on their heads can draw coyotes & dogs from a considerable distance.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

IMO, most TN "buck" hunters who have the desire to kill a buck each season are going to shoot top end bucks from each cohort (2.5s, 3.5s, etc). Not all hunters, but most. Essentially, they are going to hunt X number of days and shoot at the first "good buck" they see. Many times, that first good buck is the careless rutting 2.5/3.5 year old buck with above average headgear that loves to roam daylight hours in November.

I have hunted in hardcore QDM/TDM clubs and "it's brown it's down" clubs, and the majority of TN deer hunters who must kill a buck annually high grade the standing crop of bucks that are on the landscape. No two ways about it, they are focused on shooting the best antlers per age class, thus leaving the underperformers to live, breed, fight and pass on their genetics in out years.

Completely agree, Andy.

 

[BSK]

Agree. And it's not just "many times" but in fact MOST TIMES, that first good buck will be a typical careless 2.5/3.5 yr old buck.

Man, I wish my 3 1/2s were careless! On my place, they are hard to see. Over the last 10 years, 5 to 6 hunters on my place only averaged 3.7 sightings of a 3 1/2+ year-old bucks per year, even though we average 8.8 photographed on the property per year.

 

[TheLBLman]

Man, I wish my 3 1/2s were careless!

Man oh man, I'm not saying most 3 1/2s are "careless".
There is typically a night & day difference between daytime linear distance movements of 2 1/2s (a lot) vs. 3 1/2s (relatively little).

But there tends to be a lot more 3 1/2s alive & available than 4 1/2s,
and 3 1/2s are more likely to be moving greater linear distances during daylight than 4 1/2 & older bucks.

So the average hunter is simply much more likely to see a 3 1/2 while hunting. And if he shoots that 3 1/2, he just sabotaged much or all his opportunity for seeing a 4 1/2 or older.

If they were to exist in the same quantities,
2 1/2-yr-old bucks are the easiest to kill during the rut.
They are easier than 1 1/2-yr-old bucks.

But 3 1/2's are much more astute than 2 1/2s.
4 1/2s are much more astute & cautious than 3 1/2s,
and very likely to be trailing a 3 1/2 which "protects" those behind him
by being the first to succumb to a hunter.

What's more, 4 1/2 & older bucks are much more sensitive to a hunter simply having been around a day earlier. One whiff of human scent (where it's normally not), and they may avoid walking thru or hanging around with 200 yds of where they smelled a strange human scent. However, they are not necessarily alarmed by the scent of a particular human for whom they become habituated and no longer see that particular human as a threat.

 

[Andy S.]

IMO, careless is walking around in daylight during firearm season, especially leaf off (no foliage). That buck is asking to die. If I recall, most of your kill shots are 35 yards or so with a rifle in hardwoods, with terrain and relief. Ladder stand placement and limited sight distance may be the limiting factor for daylight hunter observations of 3.5 year olds, not so much what is walking around or not during daylight hours. Food for thought.

 

[TheLBLman]

One more reason a hunter might experience fewer sightings of 3 1/2 & older bucks during the rut:

Older bucks may be more likely to be "tending" an estrous doe, and while doing so, are staying right with that doe (relatively small range area, and usually in heavy cover). What's more, it's even more likely to be an older doe that is much more hunter wary than a younger one, i.e. less likely to drag her "tending" buck in front of a hunter (than a younger doe).

While the older more experienced bucks are "tending" the older does more, those younger bucks (mainly the 2 1/2s & 3 1/2s) are roaming around the countryside, sometimes traveling several linear miles at night, sometimes over a linear mile during daylight, casting danger to the side as they pursue finding a hot doe in some far away place.

By the way, not saying younger bucks don't breed does.
Just saying a mature buck might breed 3 during the rut, a 3 1/2 might breed a couple, and the 2 1/2s & 1 1/2s might be lucky to actually breed more than one. This would assume there are respectable numbers of 3 1/2 & older bucks in the area.

However, many hot does are actually bred by multiple bucks of all ages over a couple days or so, especially if one tending her gets shot. Add to this most of the bucks in an area may be 3 1/2 or younger, and it may be that younger bucks breed most of the doe in a particular area.

 

[BSK]

IMO, careless is walking around in daylight during firearm season, especially leaf off (no foliage). That buck is asking to die. If I recall, most of your kill shots are 35 yards or so with a rifle in hardwoods, with terrain and relief. Ladder stand placement and limited sight distance may be the limiting factor for daylight hunter observations of 3.5 year olds, not so much what is walking around or not during daylight hours. Food for thought.

Oh, they're around and moving in daylight, but our limited visibility means picking the right stand on the right day is critical. And if he's more than 60 yards away, odds are you'll never see him.

 

[BSK]

One more reason a hunter might experience fewer sightings of 3 1/2 & older bucks during the rut:

Older bucks may be more likely to be "tending" an estrous doe, and while doing so, are staying right with that doe (relatively small range area, and usually in heavy cover). What's more, it's even more likely to be an older doe that is much more hunter wary than a younger one, i.e. less likely to drag her "tending" buck in front of a hunter (than a younger doe).

This! During the 10-day peak tending period, we almost never see a mature buck. They are holed up with does. We see the vast majority of mature bucks before that period or just after.

 

[TheLBLman]

This! During the 10-day peak tending period, we almost never see a mature buck. They are holed up with does. We see the vast majority of mature bucks before that period or just after.

Exactly. Locked down. Going nowhere. Staying behind closed doors, I mean closed canopy.

I can count on one hand all the does being bred I've ever actually seen while hunting. In fact, it is only two (for certain), possibly 3 or 4, as just couldn't see due to cover & darkness. Most breeding is done in heavy cover, and/or under the cover of darkness.

Oh, I've seen lots of chasing, tending, heard lots of grunting, seen lots of bucks fights. But actual breeding? Nope. Very rare to see that in the wild in Tennessee.

Many, many years ago, one morning, I climbed about 25 feet in a good "tending" area. Had not heard or seen a thing by @ 9am. So I have my binoculars glassing the cover, when I see a deer's ear twitch. A few seconds later I realize it's a doe, and bedded beside her is a mature buck. I knew by the basal mass of his antlers and his huge neck that he was fully mature.

In fact, I'm pretty sure he was the same mainframe mature 8 that jumped my bowstring when I sailed an arrow at him a year earlier. That distance was only 35 yds, but he was looking at me when I released. I thought the arrow was so fast, no way he'd jump it. But he did. I did nick him, but I ended up being near certain he had survived.

They were @ 40 yds away. No idea how long they'd been there. There was just enough wind to visually camouflage my slow movement in threading the shot. That was the only buck I've ever killed bedded. But if I had waited for him to stand, probably couldn't have made it.

But here's where it gets more interesting.

The buck I took was aged at 5 1/2 or older, had a very clean (but very heavy) mainframe 8-pt rack. He net scored just a little past that magical 125 inches. But due to the mass, his rack appeared larger, as was his body, especially his neck & shoulders. Despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, 125 inches is actually ABOVE average for a fully mature buck in Stewart Co., TN. But still a STUD buck when fully mature & that score comes more from circumference mass than tine length.

Two miles away, at about the same time, same morning, a good friend hunting buddy of mine also killed a buck. His buck was a very clean mainframe 10-pointer, with very long tines, but not much mass. His buck was aged at 2 1/2. But it net scored at over 134!!! That was the 2nd highest scoring 2 1/2 (in TN) I've ever taped. (Did tape a 2 1/2 near the Mississippi River in far West TN that grossed 146.)

The younger buck represents a good example of antler high-grading, yet most hunters would have quickly killed that buck my friend did as well. This is especially the case because a 135-class rack on a small 2 1/2-yr-old body can have the "appearance" of a 165-plus class rack. Then you have that dreaded "ground shrinkage", which most commonly gets said with 2 1/2-yr-old bucks, and mostly attributed to a lack of mass (or "skinny" antlers).

 

[BSK]

That's a stud buck!

 

[TheLBLman]

I plan to go thru some old harvest pics this weekend and post side by side comparisons of those two bucks mentioned above.

 

[redblood]

I wont look at a buck younger than 3.5. Have seen too many "culls" make a big jump to 4.5 and 5.5.

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

From my experiences the Midwest don't high grade because they shoot everything during that short gun season. Trophy hunting is not the norm.

I'd guess there is a much higher percentage of trophy hunters/ managers in Tennessee than any Midwest state.

 

[Hillbilly Hunter]

Each deer is an individual. Some grow fast early, some grow fast late. But as a general rule, I do find that Midwestern bucks keep growing considerably larger with age. On average in TN, I see very little increase in score from 4 1/2 to 5 1/2. Of the thousand-plus TN mature bucks I have pictures of, the average difference in gross score between 4 1/2s and 5 1/2s is only 5 inches. Now some individual bucks can grow a lot between those two ages, but I've also seen plenty of TN bucks peak in score at 4 1/2 only to go down in score (but add mass) at 5 1/2. That isn't the case in the Midwest. They seem to keep growing right up to 7+.

That is fascinating to me. I appreciate you sharing that. I would say, in my opinion, it definitely is not worth passing a 4 1/2 yr old buck and risk not seeing him again for the minimal gain that is the average of just 5".

 

[mike243]

BSK were those 2 set of times the same as the EHD out breaks? seems like it was in the same time frames

 

[BSK]

BSK were those 2 set of times the same as the EHD out breaks? seems like it was in the same time frames

Not sure of the question mike243. Which two sets of times?

 

[BSK]

BSK were those 2 set of times the same as the EHD out breaks? seems like it was in the same time frames

OK, went back and now I understand your question. For us, the big EHD outbreak was 2007. Another occurred in 2019, but we didn't see a lot of death from it in our area, just a lot of hoof damage on deer that had survived the disease.

 

[Bell3wv]

Your graphs show percentages but not actual numbers. How many mature bucks are you actually seeing with 6pt or less frames? And are you including broken racks and injury induced deformities? Or true frames?

Aside from bucks with tines broken off or weird racks due to prior injury, I have never seen a 6pt or less mature buck on the hoof. I've only seen the occasional 6pt mature buck killed by other hunters, never in person. To me they seem rarer than a true 12pt.

Come on over to NETN. I've got some crap genetics with no brow tines. Can't shoot 'em and get rid of it cause it's carried by does too. Would have to scorch the earth and rebuild.