Looking for buck high-grading

[TheLBLman]

The only real solutions to hunters' antler high-grading are

1) No hunting, including zero poaching (which is near impossible, as the larger the antlered buck, the more probable he will become a poaching target).

2) Selectively harvesting bucks based totally on age, where no bucks are killed prior to full maturity, such as an age of 5 1/2.

Shooting only bucks that are fully mature only has limited practicability, but can be achieved by individual hunters who prescribe to the idea. When a significant number of hunters in a particular area prescribe to this, they can significantly reduce hunters' antler high-grading.

Otherwise, we're back to simply no hunting, where it's the poachers getting rewarded instead of honest hunters.

From a practical perspective, it may be the single best thing hunters can do is to avoid shooting top-end 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's. It's much easier to simply sort "young" from "old" bucks, and many hunters can quickly field id a 2 1/2-yr-old buck as not being old. The trick is to take the focus away from the antlers and totally focus on the body.

 

[megalomaniac]

Any chance the decline in younger bucks is density dependent, or social pressure driven?

How would either affect antler scores?

What we are seeing is fewer high scoring 2.5yos and 3.5yos on trail cam before season starts than years prior. Similar cohort sizes between the years. But body weights have significantly improved in the past 10 years (which would indirectly indicate its not nutritionally related).

Our rut is so intense, it's pretty easy to high grade out the best 3.5yos during pre rut before breeding actually begins.

 

[deerhunter10]

Interesting. Now thinking about it our home farm and our leases around here very high pressured we usually always have atleast 1 or 2 mature 6 points on cameras or neighbors or us shoot them. At our other farms 35ish miles away extremely low pressured area I have never seen a mature 6 point in person or on cameras in 25 years of hunting there. Unless very early and not recalling it.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

From a practical perspective, it may be the single best thing hunters can do is to avoid shooting top-end 2 1/2's & 3 1/2's. It's much easier to simply sort "young" from "old" bucks, and many hunters can quickly field id a 2 1/2-yr-old buck as not being old. The trick is to take the focus away from the antlers and totally focus on the body.

I like your practical perspective. But the majority of hunters that only go hunting 1-3 weekends a year simply won't do that. But on the flip side, they're not the ones (that I'm seeing) killing great racked bucks, no matter their age. I think it's the middle of the road guys that are only semi-obsessed and do the bare minimum to get the biggest racked buck each season - I do think a lot of those guys can be convinced to hold off on the trigger here and there.

Oh, and I'm as hardcore as they come, but I will never pass up a 4.5 yo buck

 

[JCDEERMAN]

I targeted a HUGE 6pt a few years ago. My FIL ended up shooting him, but never found him. I'd have given anything to of shot him and mounted him…just because he was so unique.

 

[Ski]

In this data set, which begins in 2008, 5 of 47 mature bucks had 6 points or less (10.6%), including one giant spike.

Wow! That's a lot more than I was expecting. Aside from the spike, how many of the other 4 were true 6pt frames? 5 out of 47 doesn't sound like a big number on the face, but that's 5X as many mature 6pts as I've ever seen on the hoof and I've seen a lot of mature bucks.

 

[Ski]

I like your practical perspective. But the majority of hunters that only go hunting 1-3 weekends a year simply won't do that. But on the flip side, they're not the ones (that I'm seeing) killing great racked bucks, no matter their age. I think it's the middle of the road guys that are only semi-obsessed and do the bare minimum to get the biggest racked buck each season - I do think a lot of those guys can be convinced to hold off on the trigger here and there.

Oh, and I'm as hardcore as they come, but I will never pass up a 4.5 yo buck

I agree. Too many hunters would never think twice about popping a 120" buck regardless of age. Most hunters don't care about buck age, but every hunter gets excited over a big rack.

The disconnect for me seems to be all the effort, time, and money spent on leases, only to kill off the best potential bucks before they have a chance to reach said potential.

 

[BSK]

How would either affect antler scores?

What we are seeing is fewer high scoring 2.5yos and 3.5yos on trail cam before season starts than years prior. Similar cohort sizes between the years. But body weights have significantly improved in the past 10 years (which would indirectly indicate its not nutritionally related).

Our rut is so intense, it's pretty easy to high grade out the best 3.5yos during pre rut before breeding actually begins.

I have seen numerous examples where increased social pressure causes middle-aged bucks' antler score to decline. Take out some of the pressure, and antler scores bounce right back. However, that's generally undesirable, as that means removing mature bucks. And to be honest, this problem usually vanishes once a buck reach maturity. He is now at the "top of the pack" and his antlers take a noticeable jump. Basically, increase social pressure only reduced his antlers while he was subordinated, not once he reaches near dominance.

 

[BSK]

Interesting. Now thinking about it our home farm and our leases around here very high pressured we usually always have atleast 1 or 2 mature 6 points on cameras or neighbors or us shoot them. At our other farms 35ish miles away extremely low pressured area I have never seen a mature 6 point in person or on cameras in 25 years of hunting there. Unless very early and not recalling it.

Actually, I'm talking about social pressures within deer social groups. Subordinated bucks often grow lesser antlers until they move up the social ladder, at which time their antlers bounce back to what would be expected.

 

[BSK]

I targeted a HUGE 6pt a few years ago. My FIL ended up shooting him, but never found him. I'd have given anything to of shot him and mounted him…just because he was so unique.

View attachment 183794

Dang, that's a HUGE 6-point! Would love to take a buck like that.

 

[BSK]

Wow! That's a lot more than I was expecting. Aside from the spike, how many of the other 4 were true 6pt frames? 5 out of 47 doesn't sound like a big number on the face, but that's 5X as many mature 6pts as I've ever seen on the hoof and I've seen a lot of mature bucks.

One spike, One forkhorn, and three 6-pointers.

And then at the same time, we're currently running around 67% of mature bucks being 9+ points. That's actually well above average for my area.

 

[Ski]

One spike, One forkhorn, and three 6-pointers.

And then at the same time, we're currently running around 67% of mature bucks being 9+ points. That's actually well above average for my area.

67% with 9+pts is a really good number. I've not kept track but I'm pretty sure I've not seen anything even close to that on my place. Most of mine are 8pts.

2019 was my best year for mature buck numbers. There were half a dozen mature bucks frequenting my 100 acres. Three were 8s, one was a 9, and two were 10s. That would be 50%. I'm usually pretty excited if I've got a good 10pt to hunt.

 

[megalomaniac]

I have seen numerous examples where increased social pressure causes middle-aged bucks' antler score to decline. Take out some of the pressure, and antler scores bounce right back. However, that's generally undesirable, as that means removing mature bucks. And to be honest, this problem usually vanishes once a buck reach maturity. He is now at the "top of the pack" and his antlers take a noticeable jump. Basically, increase social pressure only reduced his antlers while he was subordinated, not once he reaches near dominance.

Interesting, I always thought the more mature bucks you had in the herd, the more they suppress the younger bucks, preventing them from participating in the rut, so the young bucks just eat all rut long and don't have to recover as much weight loss in between breeding season... the net result being HIGHER antler scores.

But these bucks with subpar antlers just keep being subpar year after year as they age to maturity. No giant jump from 100in 3.5yo to a 140in 4.5yo on my places.

Why did you say it's 'undesirable' to remove mature bucks? My personal philosophy is to let every buck hit 4.5, then they are all fair game. We are never able to kill all the mature bucks annually, but we remove 60% or so of them each year.

But we do seem to be slowly recruiting more mature bucks each year over time. Low harvest numbers overall by us and the neighbors. But its frustrating that fewer and fewer of the 3.5yos are top end of the gene pool, and almost none of those are being recruited to 4.5.

 

[BSK]

Interesting, I always thought the more mature bucks you had in the herd, the more they suppress the younger bucks, preventing them from participating in the rut, so the young bucks just eat all rut long and don't have to recover as much weight loss in between breeding season... the net result being HIGHER antler scores.

These declines in middle-aged buck antler scores due to social pressures have almost always been noted in research facilities, where deer are kept in unnaturally close association (say, a 5-acre enclosure). This alone may account for the social pressure induced problems. In a more natural setting, dominant and subordinated bucks wouldn't have to spend so much time in direct association. But it has been documented that social pressures can have all sorts of effects on subordinated bucks. However, most of those effects vanish once the bucks reach dominance status. It's kind of like the kid who is bullied in school and displays a myriad of resulting problems. Move him to a different school where he's not bullied and he flourishes.

Why did you say it's 'undesirable' to remove mature bucks? My personal philosophy is to let every buck hit 4.5, then they are all fair game. We are never able to kill all the mature bucks annually, but we remove 60% or so of them each year.

Just a comment that I wouldn't try to slaughter all the mature bucks just to relieve social pressure on middle-aged bucks!

Wow, killing 60% of your mature bucks is very impressive! Since 2008, of the 47 mature bucks captured on film on my place, how many did we kill? Just 6. In our extreme terrain and cover-heavy habitat, visual ranges are so short hunters need to get into bow-range of a mature buck to kill him with a gun. That is tough for a group of very average hunters.

But we do seem to be slowly recruiting more mature bucks each year over time. Low harvest numbers overall by us and the neighbors. But its frustrating that fewer and fewer of the 3.5yos are top end of the gene pool, and almost none of those are being recruited to 4.5.

Is your buck age structure improving (percent of bucks that are mature), or total number of bucks increasing, or both? I ask because our local buck age structure maxed out many years ago (around 2005). The percent of the buck population that is mature has remained stable since then (around 8%). However, the total number of bucks captured on camera each year has fluctuated and appears to be closely linked to the percent of the property that is high-quality cover. The more cover, the more bucks we attract to the property. So some years we have more mature bucks, but only because we have more total bucks. The percent that are mature remains the same from year to year.

 

[Flintlocksforme]

How does TN's length of season play into the rarity of quality mature bucks? It seems like a 100 to 120 inch 8 point has a high bounty on his head to live through a 100 day deer season. I know there are weekend only hunters but when you get that much visible antler he becomes very tempting if he crosses the wrong yard, road, or field as many would be seeing the biggest buck they have ever seen. Maybe the season length is great for filling the freezer with meat but counter productive for growing quality mature bucks.

 

[megalomaniac]

These declines in middle-aged buck antler scores due to social pressures have almost always been noted in research facilities, where deer are kept in unnaturally close association (say, a 5-acre enclosure). This alone may account for the social pressure induced problems. In a more natural setting, dominant and subordinated bucks wouldn't have to spend so much time in direct association. But it has been documented that social pressures can have all sorts of effects on subordinated bucks. However, most of those effects vanish once the bucks reach dominance status. It's kind of like the kid who is bullied in school and displays a myriad of resulting problems. Move him to a different school where he's not bullied and he flourishes.


Just a comment that I wouldn't try to slaughter all the mature bucks just to relieve social pressure on middle-aged bucks!

Wow, killing 60% of your mature bucks is very impressive! Since 2008, of the 47 mature bucks captured on film on my place, how many did we kill? Just 6. In our extreme terrain and cover-heavy habitat, visual ranges are so short hunters need to get into bow-range of a mature buck to kill him with a gun. That is tough for a group of very average hunters.


Is your buck age structure improving (percent of bucks that are mature), or total number of bucks increasing, or both? I ask because our local buck age structure maxed out many years ago (around 2005). The percent of the buck population that is mature has remained stable since then (around 8%). However, the total number of bucks captured on camera each year has fluctuated and appears to be closely linked to the percent of the property that is high-quality cover. The more cover, the more bucks we attract to the property. So some years we have more mature bucks, but only because we have more total bucks. The percent that are mature remains the same from year to year.

Last year on the main farm, 6 out of 7 mature bucks were shot (3 by us, 2 by neighbors, 1 by another neighbor that went unrecovered and survived), the 7th mature buck we passed on, as he was around 120in (too nice to be a cull, but noone wanted to shoot him as their 'buck of choice'). So above long term average. But yes, between us and the neighbors, we average 60% of mature bucks being removed annually. There is a LOT of hunting pressure in this 1500 acre area. There are pockets of impenetrable cover to hold deer, but those pockets are interspersed amongst more open ground, which makes the deer more visible during the rut as they move from pocket of cover to another pocket of cover during daylight. Plus, we don't hunt at all until right at the prerut, so they have had no hunting pressure.

Buck age structure plateaued out about 2 or 3 years ago, but we are running around 10-12% mature bucks. But the difference in my place and yours is that our bucks will routinely live until 6.5 if not shot by hunters, and we have had one 7.5y/o and one 8.5y/o. Perhaps the decline in younger buck antler scores is due to the number of mature bucks during the summer. My buddy went scouting yesterday evening checking out the bachelor groups, and he thought of the 12 bucks he saw in 2 groups, 4 were mature (small sample size)

 

[Boll Weevil]

2) Selectively harvesting bucks based totally on age, where no bucks are killed prior to full maturity, such as an age of 5 1/2.

This is what we do; only 5+ and regardless of headgear. It's worked well but no doubt because my neighbors are also generally large landowners and do same. It would never work if there wasn't a bunch of land tied up by like-minded hunters/land managers.

 

[Ski]

How does TN's length of season play into the rarity of quality mature bucks? It seems like a 100 to 120 inch 8 point has a high bounty on his head to live through a 100 day deer season. I know there are weekend only hunters but when you get that much visible antler he becomes very tempting if he crosses the wrong yard, road, or field as many would be seeing the biggest buck they have ever seen. Maybe the season length is great for filling the freezer with meat but counter productive for growing quality mature bucks.

I'd guess a LOT! A decent buck gets shot at for 1/3 of his life. In comparison, Ohio has a one week long gun season and ML is 3 days. Gun season doesn't open until rut is largely over at beginning of December, and ML doesn't open until January. Basically if you want a big buck you have to bow hunt or hope you get lucky in the very short firearms seasons. Even with a season like that there are lots of giants taken every year state wide.

One could argue they grow bigger deer up there so naturally more big deer get shot. But I've hunted there for 40yrs and could probably count on my fingers how many 120"+ 2yr old bucks I've seen. According to this thread deer like that seem relatively common in TN. So I can only conclude that one of two things is happening. Either TN bucks grow fast then plateau before maturity, or else they're all getting killed before they can realize their potential. The 120" 2yr old deer in Ohio become booners at maturity. There's no logical reason TN bucks can't do the same.

The one hitch in that theory is that I rarely see booners being taken here in TN, although I do see lots of mature bucks being killed. There's a disconnect somewhere, something I'm not seeing or understanding. If 120" 2yr olds or even 3yr olds are happening as often enough to have this conversation, then why are we not seeing many more 160s and 180+ mature bucks? Surely it's not a biological issue. So it has to be hunter related, and the very, very long season seems it could very well be a huge contributing factor.

 

[BSK]

I'd guess a LOT! A decent buck gets shot at for 1/3 of his life. In comparison, Ohio has a one week long gun season and ML is 3 days. Gun season doesn't open until rut is largely over at beginning of December, and ML doesn't open until January. Basically if you want a big buck you have to bow hunt or hope you get lucky in the very short firearms seasons. Even with a season like that there are lots of giants taken every year state wide.

One could argue they grow bigger deer up there so naturally more big deer get shot. But I've hunted there for 40yrs and could probably count on my fingers how many 120"+ 2yr old bucks I've seen. According to this thread deer like that seem relatively common in TN. So I can only conclude that one of two things is happening. Either TN bucks grow fast then plateau before maturity, or else they're all getting killed before they can realize their potential. The 120" 2yr old deer in Ohio become booners at maturity. There's no logical reason TN bucks can't do the same.

The one hitch in that theory is that I rarely see booners being taken here in TN, although I do see lots of mature bucks being killed. There's a disconnect somewhere, something I'm not seeing or understanding. If 120" 2yr olds or even 3yr olds are happening as often enough to have this conversation, then why are we not seeing many more 160s and 180+ mature bucks? Surely it's not a biological issue. So it has to be hunter related, and the very, very long season seems it could very well be a huge contributing factor.

I definitely wouldn't say 120" 2 1/2s are common. In fact, my data says they are rare. But the 110+" 2 1/2 is more common, and the very buck that should not be killed. He has the best shot at being an above average mature buck. The same goes for the 120+" 3 1/2. Not super common, but common enough that when seen, should be protected if your goal is top-end mature bucks.

Why does TN not produce as many booners as the Midwest? Soil and nutrition.

 

[BSK]

Here's some examples of 3 1/2 year-old bucks that - if producing top-end mature bucks is your goal - should not be killed. From left to right they score 123, mid 130s, and 140. I say mid-130s for the second buck because the following year, when he was 4 1/2, he had lost a little antler-wise but still scored 133.