Sometimes it's better to be lucky

[DeerCamp]

Way to go BSK! Very satisfying for you I bet based on the history.

Can't wait to see these pics at the end of the season of "The Great One"

 

[TheLBLman]

Each year I would take all of the trail-camera pictures and create a "Do NOT shoot!" pictorial of top-end 2 1/2s. Club went so far as to print out the pictorial and hang it in every shooting house. The difference in the quality of mature bucks has been dramatic, but again, took about 3-4 years.

Great idea about posting those pics in shooting houses!

The concept of hunters' "antler high-grading" seems to be a bit confusing to many.

If we were "harvesting" (killing) trees in our woods,
but ONLY killed the very tallest, widest oak trees,
while leaving the "scrub" locust and other less desirable trees,
what would we have in our forests for the next years' "harvests"?

The term timber high-grading is often heard,
when only the very best trees are cut,
leaving "scrub" trees to take over that forest,
greatly de-grading the future.

This seems just the opposite of "conservation"?

Or, another example,
imagine a cattle farm advertising they sell angus bulls for breeding stock,
yet the most promising bulls are killed when 2 years old, leaving the less promising ones available as mature "breeding" stock.

To a large degree we create our own destinies.

If you want to kill an above averaged antlered mature buck,
that buck has to be allowed to live to maturity,
not killed because he was an above average 2 1/2 or 3 1/2.

And, antler restrictions often do more harm than good
regarding high-grading our best young bucks.
Areas with antler restrictions (such as 4 on a side, 9 points, gross "x" score, etc.)
usually have worse high-grading than areas allowing "any" antlered buck.
Go figure.

 

[BSK]

And, antler restrictions often do more harm than good
regarding high-grading our best young bucks.
Areas with antler restrictions (such as 4 on a side, 9 points, gross "x" score, etc.)
usually have worse high-grading than areas allowing "any" antlered buck.
Go figure.

Couldn't agree more. "Back in the day," when QDM was first being talked about, I thought antler restrictions were the way to go. Why? Because I never thought hunters would be able to field-judge buck age. Boy was I wrong! Just a look through this Forum shows hunters have become VERY adept at judging age. And I think trail-cameras have played a big role in that.

But as an example of the problems antler restrictions can play in future buck quality, the club I mentioned earlier had an 8-point rule. Guess what happened over time? All the 8-point 2 1/2 year-olds got shot, leaving only the <7 pointers to mature. A photo census in 2017 found only 19% of their mature bucks had 9 or more points, and a full 25% had 6 or less points. The club implemented a new harvest program of only bucks 3 1/2+, and began using my "DON'T shoot this buck!" protection list. They also implemented a "bonus" buck system of pictures I provided of 6 point and under mature bucks. Now, as of this year, 43% of mature bucks are 9+ points and ZERO percent are 6 or fewer points.

 

[Tom Collins]

Couldn't agree more. "Back in the day," when QDM was first being talked about, I thought antler restrictions were the way to go. Why? Because I never thought hunters would be able to field-judge buck age. Boy was I wrong! Just a look through this Forum shows hunters have become VERY adept at judging age. And I think trail-cameras have played a big role in that.

But as an example of the problems antler restrictions can play in future buck quality, the club I mentioned earlier had an 8-point rule. Guess what happened over time? All the 8-point 2 1/2 year-olds got shot, leaving only the <7 pointers to mature. A photo census in 2017 found only 19% of their mature bucks had 9 or more points, and a full 25% had 6 or less points. The club implemented a new harvest program of only bucks 3 1/2+, and began using my "DON'T shoot this buck!" protection list. They also implemented a "bonus" buck system of pictures I provided of 6 point and under mature bucks. Now, as of this year, 43% of mature bucks are 9+ points and ZERO percent are 6 or fewer points.

Lets see the current pic of the buck you posted lol

 

[BSK]

Lets see the current pic of the buck you posted lol

As soon as the season is over!

...or I kill him!

 

[Mule deer]

I've come to realize this is a problem. Worked with one large club to fix the problem and it's working. Took several years though. Each year I would take all of the trail-camera pictures and create a "Do NOT shoot!" pictorial of top-end 2 1/2s. Club went so far as to print out the pictorial and hang it in every shooting house. The difference in the quality of mature bucks has been dramatic, but again, took about 3-4 years.

I know this Club…. Education, buying into the program and showing restraint is the name of the game. You have to let your top-end bucks reach maturity.

 

[Mule deer]

But as an example of the problems antler restrictions can play in future buck quality, the club I mentioned earlier had an 8-point rule. Guess what happened over time? All the 8-point 2 1/2 year-olds got shot, leaving only the <7 pointers to mature. A photo census in 2017 found only 19% of their mature bucks had 9 or more points, and a full 25% had 6 or less points. The club implemented a new harvest program of only bucks 3 1/2+, and began using my "DON'T shoot this buck!" protection list. They also implemented a "bonus" buck system of pictures I provided of 6 point and under mature bucks. Now, as of this year, 43% of mature bucks are 9+ points and ZERO percent are 6 or fewer points.

There is more deer mortality as a result of fighting than most would realize. I would also add, that removing those old, mature 6 and 7 points, has given our younger bucks with good antler genetics a much better chance of survival.

 

[Hillbilly Hunter]

I am pretty sure there was more than just luck involved!

 

[Hillbilly Hunter]

There is more deer mortality as a result of fighting than most would realize. I would also add, that removing those old, mature 6 and 7 points, has given our younger bucks with good antler genetics a much better chance of survival.

That is absolutely correct! Sometimes removing one of these old bucks with sub par antlers can open up the gates of new bucks moving in!

 

[BSK]

That is absolutely correct! Sometimes removing one of these old bucks with sub par antlers can open up the gates of new bucks moving in!

And there is very good research showing some of those subordinate 3 1/2 year-olds explode in antler growth the following year if the dominant mature buck is removed. Social pressures play a big role in individual deer performance and growth.

 

[DoubleRidge]

And there is very good research showing some of those subordinate 3 1/2 year-olds explode in antler growth the following year if the dominant mature buck is removed. Social pressures play a big role in individual deer performance and growth.

Very interesting....what type of social pressures do you believe are the main contributors? Competition for premium food sources? Or other stressors?... interesting.

 

[Hillbilly Hunter]

And there is very good research showing some of those subordinate 3 1/2 year-olds explode in antler growth the following year if the dominant mature buck is removed. Social pressures play a big role in individual deer performance and growth.

Wow, I didn't know that!

 

[BSK]

Very interesting....what type of social pressures do you believe are the main contributors? Competition for premium food sources? Or other stressors?... interesting.

Mental and chemical subordination. Simply being constantly "bullied" by more dominant bucks has a physical impact. In addition, it is STRONGLY suggested that dominant bucks keep younger or less dominant bucks subordinated through pheromones left on rubs and at scrapes.

 

[DoubleRidge]

Mental and chemical subordination. Simply being constantly "bullied" by more dominant bucks has a physical impact. In addition, it is STRONGLY suggested that dominant bucks keep younger or less dominant bucks subordinated through pheromones left on rubs and at scrapes.

Fascinating information...thanks for sharing....and another good reason to target mature dominant bucks

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Mental and chemical subordination. Simply being constantly "bullied" by more dominant bucks has a physical impact. In addition, it is STRONGLY suggested that dominant bucks keep younger or less dominant bucks subordinated through pheromones left on rubs and at scrapes.

Very interesting!

 

[BSK]

It's always dangerous to equate what is seen in research pens to the wild, as deer in research pens (even if they're an acre or more in size) are forced deer into unnaturally close contact that would not occur in the wild. However, that doesn't mean what is seen in research pens has NO equivalent in the wild. What is seen in the pens is just an exaggerated version of wild conditions. That aid, I remember seeing and talking to those involved in studies with penned deer, and saw/heard some fascinating stuff. I remember one instance where signpost rubs were cut down in the wild and placed into pens with younger bucks. Because of the pheromones left on the signpost rubs by dominant mature bucks, the young bucks in the pens, once exposed to the signpost rub, produced immediate declines in blood testosterone levels, reducing their desire to participate in the breeding. Other studies involved penning young bucks with an old dominant buck and watching the behavioral and physical changes in the younger bucks. The presence or absence of mature bucks in a population has profound effects.

 

[TheLBLman]

Other studies involved penning young bucks with an old dominant buck and watching the behavioral and physical changes in the younger bucks. The presence or absence of mature bucks in a population has profound effects.

Some reading this may be thinking "bad", regarding those behavioral and physical changes in the young bucks.

I believe it's mostly "good", in that these young bucks focus more on feeding and growing fatter during their youth, resulting in their being more "healthy" (including expressing more of their antler genetic potential) once they themselves become "mature" bucks.

When we have a poor buck to doe ratio with low buck age structure (i.e. few mature bucks), any those bucks then surviving to maturity tend to be less healthy. Also, along with a poor buck to doe ratio, and low buck age structure, there may be a greater degree of antler high-grading of those young bucks, resulting in even smaller than expected antlers among those which might survive to maturity.

 

[BSK]

Some reading this may be thinking "bad", regarding those behavioral and physical changes in the young bucks.

I believe it's mostly "good", in that these young bucks focus more on feeding and growing fatter during their youth, resulting in their being more "healthy" (including expressing more of their antler genetic potential) once they themselves become "mature" bucks.

When we have a poor buck to doe ratio with low buck age structure (i.e. few mature bucks), any those bucks then surviving to maturity tend to be less healthy. Also, along with a poor buck to doe ratio, and low buck age structure, there may be a greater degree of antler high-grading of those young bucks, resulting in even smaller than expected antlers among those which might survive to maturity.

This is exactly correct LBLman. Nature works it out over a lot of trial-and-error. Mature bucks have finished growing their skeletal structure and have body mass to spare. It is better when mature bucks do most of the breeding (or at least a higher percentage than their representation in the population). Young bucks need to be protected from the rigors of the rut. If they participate little in the rut, they can use their ingested resources to grow larger bodies, which in turn allows them to be bigger, stronger animals once they reach the age of dominance. That in turn leads to excess resources which can go into antler growth come maturity.

 

[megalomaniac]

Some reading this may be thinking "bad", regarding those behavioral and physical changes in the young bucks.

I believe it's mostly "good", in that these young bucks focus more on feeding and growing fatter during their youth, resulting in their being more "healthy" (including expressing more of their antler genetic potential) once they themselves become "mature" bucks.

When we have a poor buck to doe ratio with low buck age structure (i.e. few mature bucks), any those bucks then surviving to maturity tend to be less healthy. Also, along with a poor buck to doe ratio, and low buck age structure, there may be a greater degree of antler high-grading of those young bucks, resulting in even smaller than expected antlers among those which might survive to maturity.

Agree 100%

If you are seeing 1.5yo bucks actively participating in the rut (tending), you have a major age structure problem on your property. Aside from the fruitless chasing in October, yearling bucks should only be feeding and play sparring with other yearlings during the rut. They should show almost no interest in does other than mere curiosity.

The amount of resources wasted by yearling bucks actively participating/ breeding in their first rut cannot ever be overcome later in life, thereby limiting their ability to express their genetic potential at maturity.

 

[Wrangler95]

Very nice buck,congrats on a good'un!!!