What says TWRA about this...

[PickettSFHunter]

Lets compare apples to apples. Fentress County TN with Wayne County KY. Since Fentress County's turkey harvest is plummetting then shouldnt nearby Wayne County's harvest also be plummetting if the limits of 4 in TN and 2 in KY really dont matter? Its all in the hatch they say. Lets look at some numbers.

This is in male turkeys per square mile. Jakes and LB's both included.

Fentress TN- 2007 2008 2009
0.41 psqmi 0.37 psqmi 0.36 psqmi


Wayne KY- 2007 2008 2009
0.57 psqmi 0.70 psqmi 0.80 psqmi

As you can see, Wayne County KY is harvesting over twice as many turkeys now per square mile than nearby Fentress County TN. Its not the killage per square mile that concerns me though, look at the trend. While Fentress's numbers are in a sharp downward fall, Wayne County KY's numbers are doing nothing but rising sharply. You will also see this same trend if you use nearby McCreary County KY in place of Wayne. So is it all in the hatch or maybe just maybe, that 2 bird limit and short season is doing great things for these hunters while our 4 bird limit and long season is doing nothing but harm here.

 

[BigGameGuy]

Do you believe hens going "unbred" in your county Steven? I'm trying to understand why you believe populations are declining.

 

[RS]

I took 3 trips to Fentress County this year and brought back two longbeards. I should have killed one on my third trip, but he snuck in on me. Normally all four birds come from Fentress, but I found a few places closer to home this year where the other two came from.

I actually hunt very close to Steven's place. From my experience, there's as many or more birds there now as there have been in several years. All I can say is that I'm seeing birds, sorry if others in the area aren't.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Do you believe hens going "unbred" in your county Steven? I'm trying to understand why you believe populations are declining.

At the beginning of the high limits, we had many areas in the county that were just recieving fledgling populations of turkeys.
These fledging populations and established populations(which made up and still make up a small percentage of the county) started being harvested at an alarming rate for the small number of available birds. The couple of gobblers that would make up these fledgling flocks were almost always killed. The problem here lies in the gobblers being wiped out of many areas during the Spring, yes most of the hens get bred but all that does is create jakes for next year. As you may nor may not know, jakes do not have near the reproductive vigor that a 2 year old plus gobbler has so your population continues to fall with having jakes around to do your breeding. Then of course season comes around again, jakes are mostly all thats around for the hunter in many of these areas so thats what gets killed. The cycle continues and reproductive success keeps falling, then you have some years where the hatch is bad, thus turkey populations plummet.

Also as you may or may not know, A vast study done by (Vangilder 1992) shows that Spring harvest of gobblers is additive to natural mortality but wont negatively affect the population unless that harvest is exceeding 30% of the male population available. Im here to tell you now that we are most definitely greatly exceeding 30% of male turkeys available. Also harvesting more than 25% of the adult gobblers each year will shift the age structure to be in favor of juveniles. As Ive already mentioned, juveniles do not have the reproductive success of gobblers so thus another problem. Also, A total harvest rate of 60% harvest of adult males will result in a spring population of only 10% males.

The main point here is that things go way South when your gobbler harvest exceeds 30% of the total males available and I very strongly believe that is happening in my area.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I took 3 trips to Fentress County this year and brought back two longbeards. I should have killed one on my third trip, but he snuck in on me. Normally all four birds come from Fentress, but I found a few places closer to home this year where the other two came from.

I actually hunt very close to Steven's place. From my experience, there's as many or more birds there now as there have been in several years. All I can say is that I'm seeing birds, sorry if others in the area aren't.

I killed 2 here also, big deal. There are several places in the county that have great populations, but it is limited to a few square mile areas. I live here and see it every day, hunt all over the county as well. All the places that have great populations right now have several things in common, #1- limited access #2 several have hunters that just kill 2 or so a year. I should know, my best friend owns one of these type places. They have restricted access to 2000 acres and experience great hunting. However for the majority of the county hunting access is not restricted, most people will let locals on their land just for asking. These places get reaped every year with the high limits. Also I dont just hunt my place. Actually only hunted there twice all year because of the lack of turkeys. I turkey hunt in every single area of the county that has birds.

 

[VolDoug]

This one is easy. All of the Fentress Countians are now hunting Wayne Cty, KY !

 

[ky doublelung]

Turkeys have been talking to the deer about the better dirt!

 

[Lawrence]

I really dont know how bad it will get before they make a change. We cant continue to have these liberal bag limits and long drawn out seasons and expect the hunting to get better.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Captain, your numbers show the same thing mine does in that Bell KY's harvest has gone steady up per sq mile over the last 4 years but Claiborne TN has dropped significantly, hopefully Claiborne has hit a plateau though, we havent.

 

[spitndrum]

I have a lease in Fentress that Steven know far too good, he harvested a bird on it 2 years ago and told me as soon as season comes too they will be harder to see, sure enough I began getting pics and once season got here Buckhorn took a LB on opening day but it jus eased into the field he was hunting, since then we havent got on anymore birds I dont recall them hearing any I didnt go there much this year I was trying to go to the woodpile!!!

 

[Anonymous]

you can be sure, twra has never been much on managing for quality, be it turkey, deer, or crappie. everything is about quantity and revenue. that being said, much of the state is doing fine with the four bird limit, although three would be plenty for me. every farm i hunt has at least one good tom left, and multiple jakes. i have a hard time believing that your population is suffering if the hens are being left alone. you may have some poaching problems or even some severe nest predation. may need to get out the rat poison!

 

[4onaside]

you can be sure, twra has never been much on managing for quality, be it turkey, deer, or crappie. everything is about quantity and revenue. that being said, much of the state is doing fine with the four bird limit, although three would be plenty for me. every farm i hunt has at least one good tom left, and multiple jakes. i have a hard time believing that your population is suffering if the hens are being left alone. you may have some poaching problems or even some severe nest predation. may need to get out the rat poison!

I'm not sure that I understand managing turkeys for "quality". What is that? However, with any resource that is under their oversight, why wouldn't they manage for quanity? Isn't that what they are supposed to do, try to create the mostest for the mostest? And on the revenue thing, how would you have them even function without revenue? Is all of your work pro-bono? LOL

 

[Anonymous]

However, with any resource that is under their oversight, why wouldn't they manage for quanity? Isn't that what they are supposed to do, try to create the mostest for the mostest? And on the revenue thing, how would you have them even function without revenue? Is all of your work pro-bono? LOL

Ahh, here we go again. Another fine socialist/communist.

to be consistent, i guess you would rather them raise a hundred jakes per square mile than twenty toms, theoretically speaking of course, to go along with those stud ten inch crappie you keep so many of!!

 

[4onaside]

However, with any resource that is under their oversight, why wouldn't they manage for quanity? Isn't that what they are supposed to do, try to create the mostest for the mostest? And on the revenue thing, how would you have them even function without revenue? Is all of your work pro-bono? LOL

Ahh, here we go again. Another fine socialist/communist.

to be consistent, i guess you would rather them raise a hundred jakes per square mile than twenty toms, theoretically speaking of course, to go along with those stud ten inch crappie you keep so many of!!

You mean someone else, another "fine socialist/communist" has challenged your statements before? Amazing! Quit speaking out of another part of your anatomy other than your mouth and tell us how the state would go about "quality" turkey management.That was the statement that you made, that you probably thought sounded good, and that's what I asked you to define. What's involved in that? Is that something like don't shoot anything less that 12 inch beards and/or 1 and half inch spurs. And of course, nothing under 25 lbs. No doubt, just like you do. Of course, that's assuming that you even turkey hunt. You do turkey hunt, don't you? And you obviously couldn't speak the truth if you had a cue card, but I haven't kept a fish,"stud ten inch crappie" included in years. However, If I choose to do so, how about sending me your address so I can write and get your written permission? I certainly want to make sure that you elitists approve. You know, that statement about "stud ten inch crappie" that you made, defines you as well as your bio would. And your arrogant statement about kids and girls(shame on you) on another post just hammers who you are home.

 

[Anonymous]

4, i am sure this eludes you, but to me "quality" in a turkey hunt would include lots of mature birds and lots of good gobbling. in case you didn't know, the two go together. so, listen closely, to manage for that you would protect the jakes and hens, because the jakes become toms. i know this is really complicated but i don't mind explaining it for you.

 

[4onaside]

4onaside, he is confusing me with you, I have kept hundreds if not thousands of 10" crappie over the last years. Sue me...

Sometimes your and my philosophies don't completely mesh, but from reading your posts I know that you are a fine turkey hunter and I really respect that. If I don't necessarily agree with you on a post, I don't call you names, and I don't expect that either from any mature individual. He's going into the lier, lier pants on fire defense. LOL
Incidentally, there is nothing that I would rather do than catch a crappie on an ultra light with a jig. And I have caught thousands that way. And, I don't keep them, mainly because I don't want to fool with them. But when my son goes with me, ah that's another matter. He keeps them......and fillets them.....and fries them........and I eat them! The best fish around, particularly when you just have to catch them and eat them with no hassle in between.

 

[4onaside]

4, i am sure this eludes you, but to me "quality" in a turkey hunt would include lots of mature birds and lots of good gobbling. in case you didn't know, the two go together. so, listen closely, to manage for that you would protect the jakes and hens, because the jakes become toms. i know this is really complicated but i don't mind explaining it for you.

Thanks for your patience in explaining all of that to me. I know that it is frustrating dealing with people who don't have the intellect that you possess, well at least as seen by you. However, the part that I am really having trouble understanding is a who cannot talk without talking down to someone. I apologized to you on PM which was obviously a serious error in judgement on my part. My first reaction to you and about you was apparently the correct one.

 

[TurkeyBurd]

4- I feel your pain. deerlawyer is an amazing person. Expert on all subjects. There is nothing he doesn't know and has no problem talking down to people. Master outdoorsman with no people skills.

 

[stik]

i hunt a large tract of public land in morgan co. :X several years ago it was nothing to hear 5 or 6 gobblers every morning. now most mornings you hear none. to my knowledge(very few people hunt this place and we all pretty much know each other) there have been a grand total of 7 turkeys killed off this place since i started hunting it(15+ yrs ago). where did all these turkeys go? it wasn't hunters.

 

[102]

stik,
Last year, 2008 Spring, I hunted turkey in my favorite area. An area I know WELL. I heard ONE gobbler ALL season. I killed ZERO. And I hunted ALL over several counties. It was the worst season I ever had.
This year...same areas....POLAR opposite.
I heard and worked MANY mature birds, and killed THREE!

My buddies had simila luck last year, and killed 3 or 4 each this year.

THe birds were there last season also, they just did not gobble.

102

 

[CopperHead77]

4, i am sure this eludes you, but to me "quality" in a turkey hunt would include lots of mature birds and lots of good gobbling. in case you didn't know, the two go together. so, listen closely, to manage for that you would protect the jakes and hens, because the jakes become toms. i know this is really complicated but i don't mind explaining it for you.

WOW.......thats..ahhhhh nevermind

 

[PickettSFHunter]

i hunt a large tract of public land in morgan co. :X several years ago it was nothing to hear 5 or 6 gobblers every morning. now most mornings you hear none. to my knowledge(very few people hunt this place and we all pretty much know each other) there have been a grand total of 7 turkeys killed off this place since i started hunting it(15+ yrs ago). where did all these turkeys go? it wasn't hunters.

That is what I have been try to tell people but they still think it is the 4 bird limit.The hatch has been down(until last year)the turkey pop. is down because of that.There were a lot of jakes killed this year because of the good hatch and know they are saying we killed to many jakes.We just need several good years of hatches in a row and everyone will shut up about the turkey.

BSL, if that is the case then why isnt Wayne County KY showing the same results we are? Are they having good hatches up there just a few miles away while we are having crappy hatches? I just want to reiterate this again, anytime you take over %30 of your standing population of male birds, it is not good for the population, great hatch or not. OR maybe those Wayne County hunters are just superior turkey hunters compared to us

 

[buckdead]

Turkeys have been talking to the deer about the better dirt!

finally a reasonable explanation. lol.

 

[102]

captain hook,
I have read post after ridiculoua post written by you. Your allegations that there has been a major die off in turkey populations, amoung other things, have NO FACT BASIS.
You are only arriving at your conclusions based on a few hunts in a comparitively small portion of the entire state. I seriously doubt you have either the profession, or the funding to make management decisions for YOUR county, let alone Unit B or the entire state.

You are entitiled to your opinion on what you think may have happened to turkey populations. Or what may happen to deer populations but MAKE NO MISTAKE...it is OPINION ONLY! Not based on scientific data gathered by paid professionals.

On the one hand people say there are Jakes being killed in record numbers, yet you say there must have been a "gap" in the population. Hmmmmmmm!!!

I say this to set the record straight. You are a relative newcomer to our state. I have been here for 45 plus years. IMO...TWRA does an outstanding job with what they have. I am not happy with everything...but then, I am happy with most!

102

 

[102]

Captain Hook,
Ditto for me with the following edits,

A few hunts???? You do realize that I am not just a once a month hunter, don't you? I spent 35-40 days in the woods during TN's turkey season this year. And pretty much the same number over 20 seasons, and have seen the numbers of mature gobblers where I hunt rise and fall (cyclically) over the years. Now as I have said before, I do not think hunting pressure is to blame for what I personally am experiencing, as I hunt very remote places, where quite simply folks are too lazy to get to with any frequency. I did call in a pile of birds for others in TN this year however.

So no I am not basing anything on a few hunts or years. And the fact is that the number of harvested birds has decreased...and increased, depending on a number of factors, in the last seasons.

I also,do have the profession in a way, with an undergrad degree in Forestry and Wildlife Management, and worked on numerous research projects while in school with turkeys/deer in the state of Tn. (Tn. Division of Forestry, Prentice Cooper WMA. I also, consult a few large hunting parcels in the state of Tenn. on proper management of everything from habitat to wildlife harvests, so for your understanding I too, have some background in this stuff.

Many paid professionals don't know jack about anything, while others know a ton.

Jakes were killed this year in high numbers, too dang high IMO, a record? I have no idea on that, but every jake that gets killed is one less mature bird possibly to be in the flock the next year. SO WHAT?

"The population gap isn't in jakes, the population gap is in mature birds, hens and I gobblers I suspect based on mine and others experiences. I also clearly stated this as well."

Again...no proof, just idle speculation and SO WHAT?

BTW, I have 27 years of hard core whitetail and Eastern Wild Turkey behavioral study. With STRONG emphasis on habitat, nutritional, and breeding behavior.

I know enough to emphatically state the following, "I can surmise, based on my years of study, that wildlife populations run through cycles. Highs and lows, if you will. THe cycles may be VERY benign in parameter. With triggers almost impossible to detect. Indeed, there may be so many factors contributing to a low, or high, that by the time it is realized, has long since deminished. While other "trigger factors" are as obvious as a mast crop failure and hard, long, snowy winter. To suggest that an actual "trend" is occurring with relative little data within a broad basis (large area of the state) is preposterous. And should not be taken seriously."
Granted, Therre probably will always be areas of ANY state that may need a reduction in a bag limit from time to time, but nature WILL take care of itself over time.

I find it amusing, that ANYONE on this forum, actually considers that hunters (so small in success rates/and fewer all the time in numbers anyway) have much affect at all on ANY population of animals.

102

 

[102]

Not a practical argumant at all and you KNOW it!

It is a cycle!

I doubt populations have varied that much anyway!

102

 

[RS]

Not a practical argumant at all and you KNOW it!

It is a cycle!

I doubt populations have varied that much anyway!

102

No 102, it is a totally practical argument........if the 500 acres had a dome around it and turkeys could not come and go from surrounding areas.

captain hook, you complained all through this years season about walking miles and miles and not hearing or seeing birds in East TN, but yet you state above that you "called in a pile of birds in East TN for other hunters". So, where did this magical pile of birds come from?

 

[Huntaholic]

Some of yall say its a cycle, in 25 years of hunting turkeys, I say its a wave. Once the wave passes I have NEVER seen it build back up to the levels it once was, PERIOD. 4 is too many. For those that say we as hunters have little to no impact, why dont you put up or shut up. Invite me, captain hook, and a couple more close friends I know to come hunt your place next spring. If we cant impact your population then I will give you my places to hunt for the next 3 years. Im growing tired of armchair turkey slayers who read well yet have little if any practical experience.

 

[4onaside]

Some of yall say its a cycle, in 25 years of hunting turkeys, I say its a wave. Once the wave passes I have NEVER seen it build back up to the levels it once was, PERIOD. 4 is too many. For those that say we as hunters have little to no impact, why dont you put up or shut up. Invite me, captain hook, and a couple more close friends I know to come hunt your place next spring. If we cant impact your population then I will give you my places to hunt for the next 3 years. Im growing tired of armchair turkey slayers who read well yet have little if any practical experience.

If 4 is too many for you then DON'T SHOOT 4. This whole deal appears to be a dog chasing his tail deal, round and round and round. But it seems to me that the people who are making the most noise about 4 being too many will tell you in a flash that they shoot 4. That in itself is a head scratcher. Why should the state cut the limit if all of you "too many" people don't practice what you preach? And your offer is .......well, never mind. My turkeys are for me. I have a decent population for me! Impact your own turkeys, or not. I can handle my own thank you. And if you are "growing tired of armchair turkey slayers" then quit reading the stuff. What I'm growing tired of people hundreds of miles from my place trying to tell me what's best for me. That is beltway liberal stuff all the way. In fact, I think that I will follow my own suggestion and quit reading this crap. LOL

 

[RS]

Some of yall say its a cycle, in 25 years of hunting turkeys, I say its a wave. Once the wave passes I have NEVER seen it build back up to the levels it once was, PERIOD. 4 is too many. For those that say we as hunters have little to no impact, why dont you put up or shut up.

Huntaholic, based on your quotes above, I'm just interested in knowing when was the last time you didn't kill the 4-bird limit in Tennessee?

The typical answer for those that complain yet kill the limit every year is usually "I spread my kills out over several farms". If you think 4 is too many, then 4 is too many period. Don't make excuses and complain when you continue kill the limit every year.