What says TWRA about this...

[PickettSFHunter]

Lets compare apples to apples. Fentress County TN with Wayne County KY. Since Fentress County's turkey harvest is plummetting then shouldnt nearby Wayne County's harvest also be plummetting if the limits of 4 in TN and 2 in KY really dont matter? Its all in the hatch they say. Lets look at some numbers.

This is in male turkeys per square mile. Jakes and LB's both included.

Fentress TN- 2007 2008 2009
0.41 psqmi 0.37 psqmi 0.36 psqmi


Wayne KY- 2007 2008 2009
0.57 psqmi 0.70 psqmi 0.80 psqmi

As you can see, Wayne County KY is harvesting over twice as many turkeys now per square mile than nearby Fentress County TN. Its not the killage per square mile that concerns me though, look at the trend. While Fentress's numbers are in a sharp downward fall, Wayne County KY's numbers are doing nothing but rising sharply. You will also see this same trend if you use nearby McCreary County KY in place of Wayne. So is it all in the hatch or maybe just maybe, that 2 bird limit and short season is doing great things for these hunters while our 4 bird limit and long season is doing nothing but harm here.

 

[BigGameGuy]

Do you believe hens going "unbred" in your county Steven? I'm trying to understand why you believe populations are declining.

 

[RS]

I took 3 trips to Fentress County this year and brought back two longbeards. I should have killed one on my third trip, but he snuck in on me. Normally all four birds come from Fentress, but I found a few places closer to home this year where the other two came from.

I actually hunt very close to Steven's place. From my experience, there's as many or more birds there now as there have been in several years. All I can say is that I'm seeing birds, sorry if others in the area aren't.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Do you believe hens going "unbred" in your county Steven? I'm trying to understand why you believe populations are declining.

At the beginning of the high limits, we had many areas in the county that were just recieving fledgling populations of turkeys.
These fledging populations and established populations(which made up and still make up a small percentage of the county) started being harvested at an alarming rate for the small number of available birds. The couple of gobblers that would make up these fledgling flocks were almost always killed. The problem here lies in the gobblers being wiped out of many areas during the Spring, yes most of the hens get bred but all that does is create jakes for next year. As you may nor may not know, jakes do not have near the reproductive vigor that a 2 year old plus gobbler has so your population continues to fall with having jakes around to do your breeding. Then of course season comes around again, jakes are mostly all thats around for the hunter in many of these areas so thats what gets killed. The cycle continues and reproductive success keeps falling, then you have some years where the hatch is bad, thus turkey populations plummet.

Also as you may or may not know, A vast study done by (Vangilder 1992) shows that Spring harvest of gobblers is additive to natural mortality but wont negatively affect the population unless that harvest is exceeding 30% of the male population available. Im here to tell you now that we are most definitely greatly exceeding 30% of male turkeys available. Also harvesting more than 25% of the adult gobblers each year will shift the age structure to be in favor of juveniles. As Ive already mentioned, juveniles do not have the reproductive success of gobblers so thus another problem. Also, A total harvest rate of 60% harvest of adult males will result in a spring population of only 10% males.

The main point here is that things go way South when your gobbler harvest exceeds 30% of the total males available and I very strongly believe that is happening in my area.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

I took 3 trips to Fentress County this year and brought back two longbeards. I should have killed one on my third trip, but he snuck in on me. Normally all four birds come from Fentress, but I found a few places closer to home this year where the other two came from.

I actually hunt very close to Steven's place. From my experience, there's as many or more birds there now as there have been in several years. All I can say is that I'm seeing birds, sorry if others in the area aren't.

I killed 2 here also, big deal. There are several places in the county that have great populations, but it is limited to a few square mile areas. I live here and see it every day, hunt all over the county as well. All the places that have great populations right now have several things in common, #1- limited access #2 several have hunters that just kill 2 or so a year. I should know, my best friend owns one of these type places. They have restricted access to 2000 acres and experience great hunting. However for the majority of the county hunting access is not restricted, most people will let locals on their land just for asking. These places get reaped every year with the high limits. Also I dont just hunt my place. Actually only hunted there twice all year because of the lack of turkeys. I turkey hunt in every single area of the county that has birds.

 

[VolDoug]

This one is easy. All of the Fentress Countians are now hunting Wayne Cty, KY !

 

[ky doublelung]

Turkeys have been talking to the deer about the better dirt!

 

[Lawrence]

I really dont know how bad it will get before they make a change. We cant continue to have these liberal bag limits and long drawn out seasons and expect the hunting to get better.

 

[PickettSFHunter]

Captain, your numbers show the same thing mine does in that Bell KY's harvest has gone steady up per sq mile over the last 4 years but Claiborne TN has dropped significantly, hopefully Claiborne has hit a plateau though, we havent.

 

[spitndrum]

I have a lease in Fentress that Steven know far too good, he harvested a bird on it 2 years ago and told me as soon as season comes too they will be harder to see, sure enough I began getting pics and once season got here Buckhorn took a LB on opening day but it jus eased into the field he was hunting, since then we havent got on anymore birds I dont recall them hearing any I didnt go there much this year I was trying to go to the woodpile!!!

 

[Anonymous]

you can be sure, twra has never been much on managing for quality, be it turkey, deer, or crappie. everything is about quantity and revenue. that being said, much of the state is doing fine with the four bird limit, although three would be plenty for me. every farm i hunt has at least one good tom left, and multiple jakes. i have a hard time believing that your population is suffering if the hens are being left alone. you may have some poaching problems or even some severe nest predation. may need to get out the rat poison!

 

[4onaside]

you can be sure, twra has never been much on managing for quality, be it turkey, deer, or crappie. everything is about quantity and revenue. that being said, much of the state is doing fine with the four bird limit, although three would be plenty for me. every farm i hunt has at least one good tom left, and multiple jakes. i have a hard time believing that your population is suffering if the hens are being left alone. you may have some poaching problems or even some severe nest predation. may need to get out the rat poison!

I'm not sure that I understand managing turkeys for "quality". What is that? However, with any resource that is under their oversight, why wouldn't they manage for quanity? Isn't that what they are supposed to do, try to create the mostest for the mostest? And on the revenue thing, how would you have them even function without revenue? Is all of your work pro-bono? LOL

 

[Anonymous]

However, with any resource that is under their oversight, why wouldn't they manage for quanity? Isn't that what they are supposed to do, try to create the mostest for the mostest? And on the revenue thing, how would you have them even function without revenue? Is all of your work pro-bono? LOL

Ahh, here we go again. Another fine socialist/communist.

to be consistent, i guess you would rather them raise a hundred jakes per square mile than twenty toms, theoretically speaking of course, to go along with those stud ten inch crappie you keep so many of!!

 

[4onaside]

However, with any resource that is under their oversight, why wouldn't they manage for quanity? Isn't that what they are supposed to do, try to create the mostest for the mostest? And on the revenue thing, how would you have them even function without revenue? Is all of your work pro-bono? LOL

Ahh, here we go again. Another fine socialist/communist.

to be consistent, i guess you would rather them raise a hundred jakes per square mile than twenty toms, theoretically speaking of course, to go along with those stud ten inch crappie you keep so many of!!

You mean someone else, another "fine socialist/communist" has challenged your statements before? Amazing! Quit speaking out of another part of your anatomy other than your mouth and tell us how the state would go about "quality" turkey management.That was the statement that you made, that you probably thought sounded good, and that's what I asked you to define. What's involved in that? Is that something like don't shoot anything less that 12 inch beards and/or 1 and half inch spurs. And of course, nothing under 25 lbs. No doubt, just like you do. Of course, that's assuming that you even turkey hunt. You do turkey hunt, don't you? And you obviously couldn't speak the truth if you had a cue card, but I haven't kept a fish,"stud ten inch crappie" included in years. However, If I choose to do so, how about sending me your address so I can write and get your written permission? I certainly want to make sure that you elitists approve. You know, that statement about "stud ten inch crappie" that you made, defines you as well as your bio would. And your arrogant statement about kids and girls(shame on you) on another post just hammers who you are home.

 

[Anonymous]

4, i am sure this eludes you, but to me "quality" in a turkey hunt would include lots of mature birds and lots of good gobbling. in case you didn't know, the two go together. so, listen closely, to manage for that you would protect the jakes and hens, because the jakes become toms. i know this is really complicated but i don't mind explaining it for you.

 

[4onaside]

4onaside, he is confusing me with you, I have kept hundreds if not thousands of 10" crappie over the last years. Sue me...

Sometimes your and my philosophies don't completely mesh, but from reading your posts I know that you are a fine turkey hunter and I really respect that. If I don't necessarily agree with you on a post, I don't call you names, and I don't expect that either from any mature individual. He's going into the lier, lier pants on fire defense. LOL
Incidentally, there is nothing that I would rather do than catch a crappie on an ultra light with a jig. And I have caught thousands that way. And, I don't keep them, mainly because I don't want to fool with them. But when my son goes with me, ah that's another matter. He keeps them......and fillets them.....and fries them........and I eat them! The best fish around, particularly when you just have to catch them and eat them with no hassle in between.

 

[4onaside]

4, i am sure this eludes you, but to me "quality" in a turkey hunt would include lots of mature birds and lots of good gobbling. in case you didn't know, the two go together. so, listen closely, to manage for that you would protect the jakes and hens, because the jakes become toms. i know this is really complicated but i don't mind explaining it for you.

Thanks for your patience in explaining all of that to me. I know that it is frustrating dealing with people who don't have the intellect that you possess, well at least as seen by you. However, the part that I am really having trouble understanding is a who cannot talk without talking down to someone. I apologized to you on PM which was obviously a serious error in judgement on my part. My first reaction to you and about you was apparently the correct one.

 

[TurkeyBurd]

4- I feel your pain. deerlawyer is an amazing person. Expert on all subjects. There is nothing he doesn't know and has no problem talking down to people. Master outdoorsman with no people skills.

 

[stik]

i hunt a large tract of public land in morgan co. :X several years ago it was nothing to hear 5 or 6 gobblers every morning. now most mornings you hear none. to my knowledge(very few people hunt this place and we all pretty much know each other) there have been a grand total of 7 turkeys killed off this place since i started hunting it(15+ yrs ago). where did all these turkeys go? it wasn't hunters.

 

[102]

stik,
Last year, 2008 Spring, I hunted turkey in my favorite area. An area I know WELL. I heard ONE gobbler ALL season. I killed ZERO. And I hunted ALL over several counties. It was the worst season I ever had.
This year...same areas....POLAR opposite.
I heard and worked MANY mature birds, and killed THREE!

My buddies had simila luck last year, and killed 3 or 4 each this year.

THe birds were there last season also, they just did not gobble.

102