turkey pop in southern wayne co

[volsrock]

Can someone give me good reason for the decline!!!! iv addressed this is in other threads and they have been locked???? just want answers. i want the population to come back

 

[scn]

No one knows what has caused the drop in population. There is an ongoing study that hopefully will shed some light. My best guess is that it is a combination of multiple factors.

One of the things that, IMO, is happening to TN's turkey population as well as several other surrounding states deals with the "restoration phenomena". It has been documented in many restored populations for a variety of animals that after restoration populations tend to grow to a large and unsustainable level. Basically, they grow beyond their natural carrying capacity. At some point, the population declines to their carrying capacity. I'm convinced we have seen some of that in TN.

But, that doesn't explain the drastic drops we have seen in some of our county turkey populations. IMO, disease had to play a role in the tremendous change. Did it originate from your chicken houses down there? Maybe, but, some counties that are hundreds of miles from a chicken house have seen some drastic drops as well. Hopefully the study will have some ideas on the causes and maybe some potential cures. Lets hope they don't say it was caused by the chicken houses as we all know that they aren't going away.

My best guess from being around it for a long time both professionally and as a hunter is that it has been a combination of disease, increased predation, asinine hunting regulations that have led to over hunting, and likely herbicide/pesticide changes in farming practices. I don't think any of the above are "THE" reason for the drop.

 

[TheLBLman]

I totally agree with SCN, especially with the final summary paragraph . . . . .

My best guess from being around it for a long time both professionally and as a hunter is that it has been a combination of disease, increased predation, asinine hunting regulations that have led to over hunting, and likely herbicide/pesticide changes in farming practices. I don't think any of the above are "THE" reason for the drop.

Exactly.

I would also add some other factors:

1) More effective weapons (with more effective loads) ---- effective range has increase about 50%?

2) The use of more convenient, very effective pop-up blinds.
Not only are these effective in hiding movement,
but they allow for more "comfort" sitting in a comfortable chair.
This has led to more time being spent afield by turkey hunters (compared to times past pre-pop-up).

3) While we're talking about comfort & "hiding" from our quarry,
we also have more comfortable, higher-tech clothing, footwear, and rainwear as well.
Add to this the "turkey lounger" seat which can allow even a "traditional" run & gun turkey hunter to sit comfortably for hours on end without needing to reposition due to numb body parts.

4) The increased use of more effective "killing" tactics (some of which may be more about just killing than simple hunting).
Such tactics can include "reaping" and the use of remote-controlled decoys.

5) Increased corn feeding ---- this is leading to increased turkey mortality

6) And lastly, shorter learning curves in learning how to quickly go kill turkeys (particularly by novice hunters),
via such learning tools as YouTube and turkey-killing dvds, etc.

In short, it's simply much easier and much quicker today for a novice hunter to quickly become a turkey killer.
And our woods & fields today are filled with lots of novice hunters killing lots of turkeys.
This didn't happen so quickly in times past.

Ironically, more traditional "run & gun" style turkey hunting still requires a relatively long learning curve,
it's just that it's not the hunting "style" most turkey killers are using today?

 

[TheLBLman]

As to the original question pertaining to South Wayne County,
similar has been happening in parts of other counties as well.
Just happenstance there is my best guess.

I once saw most turkeys killed in a pretty large area from aflatoxin corn.
Went from a ton of turkeys to no turkeys in a matter of months, then took years to recover.

But since aflatoxin corn also kills chickens, doubt that's much a factor in South Wayne County.

 

[th88]

One more thing I believe has had an affect is mass conversion of mature timber into pine plantation. Of course this doesn't apply to most of TN, but does apply to Wayne County. On a small scale, the conversion isn't much of an issue as it provides habitat diversity. But I've saw blocks of mature mixed pine/hardwood timber, a couple thousand acres in size, clearcut and replanted in plantation pines throughout Wayne County. Just look at the public lands found there. Once that land is planted it is normally sprayed, thus eliminating the benefits of fresh, nutritious browse.

Now I know there are still plenty parts of Wayne with great habitat, but I can spend a couple hours driving through the county and it is easy for me to see how turkeys aren't flourishing there like the once were.

 

[hbg1]

I am not disagreeing with anything that has been said to this point, however I have no doubts the chicken house are mostly responsible for the decline. I'm not sure that Twra realizes it but the chicken litter from these houses is spread on hay fields and pastures as fertilizer. That is commonly known but what may not be commonly known is this litter is either classified as green or yellow. The green litter is good and free of certain bacteria's but the yellow is contaminated. There are no regulations on either to my knowledge. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the correlation to the declining turkey populations. The easy solution isn't to stamp out chicken house but to regulate the litter that is spread. Will anyone step up is the question.

 

[scn]

I am not disagreeing with anything that has been said to this point, however I have no doubts the chicken house are mostly responsible for the decline. I'm not sure that Twra realizes it but the chicken litter from these houses is spread on hay fields and pastures as fertilizer. That is commonly known but what may not be commonly known is this litter is either classified as green or yellow. The green litter is good and free of certain bacteria's but the yellow is contaminated. There are no regulations on either to my knowledge. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the correlation to the declining turkey populations. The easy solution isn't to stamp out chicken house but to regulate the litter that is spread. Will anyone step up is the question.

It may very well be a factor, but what is your explanation for drastic declines in counties that don't have any chicken houses or manure spreading going on? IMO, the chicken house stuff is a major reach as the declines are going on where there are no chicken houses anywhere around.

 

[Andy S.]

......but the chicken litter from these houses is spread on hay fields and pastures as fertilizer.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out the correlation to the declining turkey populations. ......

.............but to regulate the litter that is spread.

We have no way of proving it, but my good friend leases 2k acres (ag & hardwoods) in SW Hickman county and his place has had an abundant turkey population since the mid 90s, until about five years ago when large piles of chicken litter started showing up for fertilizer. Generally speaking, there is very little hunting pressure in this general area, and he has killed very few old birds during this time period, so it definitely makes one wonder and being highly suspect of the recently introduced chicken litter.

 

[TheLBLman]

We have no way of proving it, but my good friend leases 2k acres (ag & hardwoods) in SW Hickman county and his place has had an abundant turkey population since the mid 90s, until about five years ago when large piles of chicken litter started showing up for fertilizer. Generally speaking, there is very little hunting pressure in this general area, and he has killed very few old birds during this time period, so it definitely makes one wonder and being highly suspect of the recently introduced chicken litter.

I totally "get it" as to why we're wondering about turkey population correlation with chickens and chicken litter.
But until this correlation can be documented, it may just be happenstance.

Am saying this in the context of so many other people leasing/hunting (even more than 2k acres), without the nearby presence of either chicken houses or chicken litter, yet their experience has been just like your good friend's.

As to your friend's 2k acre lease, does he feed corn via feeders?

Reason I ask is because nearly all the turkeys on an area of 2k acres can be winter "flocked" in just a small part of that range until late March. If the flock encounters aflatoxin-infected corn, all that eat a kernel, die. And they die quicker than CWD-infected deer.
A single event such as this would produce the outcome your friend has observed.

Just saying, there are so many possibilities, that's why most of us continue to scratch our heads wondering which factors are the most significant.

 

[Andy S.]

As to your friend's 2k acre lease, does he feed corn via feeders?

He does not, he doesn't even run trail cameras. With that said, he has killed turkeys in the past that were full of corn, so SOMEONE nearby is/was feeding corn, at least periodically.

 

[Southern Sportsman]

I don't know the ins and outs of the chicken litter business, but it wouldn't be hard to transport loads of it to other counties and other areas. If it's notably cheaper than traditional nitrogen (and I understand that it is) a farmer who becomes accustom to using it near a chicken house can easily send a truck to bring it to other land he farms.

I certainly believe chicken litter could spread disease, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's the main problem. One of the farms I hunt is walking distance from 4 commercial chicken houses and populations there have stayed steady. The problem is that chicken litter information is all anecdotal. I wish they regulated it such that it was known when and where litter was spread.

 

[tnanh]

There are several commercially packaged fertilizers made from chicken litter that can be purchased in bags and transported or delivered anywhere someone wants to use it. I noticed the decline in turkey sightings after Williamette sold out. Mainly in Hickman, Perry, and Lewis counties. I think it was Hughes lumber company that bought them. The cutting practices changed drastically. Miles of clear cuts from Hughes. Checkerboarding by Williamette made for some great deer and turkey habitat. Large expanses of cuts by Hughes completely changed those counties.

 

[Andy S.]

I noticed the decline in turkey sightings after Williamette sold out. Mainly in Hickman, Perry, and Lewis counties. ....... The cutting practices changed drastically........ Miles of clear cuts from Hughes. Checkerboarding by Williamette made for some great deer and turkey habitat. Large expanses of cuts by Hughes completely changed those counties.

Agree 110%.

 

[Boll Weevil]

I tend to agree with the perfect storm of contributing factors but also believe killing a larger % of the gobblers while the population was steadily shrinking exacerbated the outcome. There may be a few hens around but because there are so few/no toms, sustainment (or growth) of the local flock goes south in a hurry.

 

[TheLBLman]

I noticed the decline in turkey sightings after Williamette sold out. Mainly in Hickman, Perry, and Lewis counties. I think it was Hughes lumber company that bought them. The cutting practices changed drastically. Miles of clear cuts from Hughes. Checkerboarding by Williamette made for some great deer and turkey habitat. Large expanses of cuts by Hughes completely changed those counties.

This is a sudden, huge reduction in biodiversity.
What you just described has often been the single biggest factor in regional turkey declines ("region" being a part of a county).

But by hunter observations, sometimes the immediate decline is not as bad as its appearance.

Think about this.

Say you had an area of about 50,000 acres, and that area is currently mostly very mixed habitat of mature pines, mature timber, some timber that has been recently select-cut, some young pine parcels. BUT, key is that all the different habitats tend to be 10 to 100 acres in size, and there is somewhat a "checkerboard" pattern of all these different habits closely bordering each other. Every one of these different habitats may exist in EACH square mile over the 50,000 acres.

Now, this 50,000 acres (such as a county portion about 15 miles long x 5 miles wide) might have be supporting an average ongoing population of about 800 adult turkeys, with most of the areas turkey hunters considering the turkey hunting "decent".

To add perspective, a county that's 25 miles long x 25 miles wide would contain about 400,000 acres,
so 50,000 can easily be less than 15% of a county's acreage.

But now, come in and clear-cut 25,000 acres in a single homogeneous cut.
This leaves bare dirt, essentially no cover, on 50% of those particular 50,000 acres referenced.
Where do the turkeys suddenly go that HAD lived there?

Well, they are now 2x concentrated on the remaining 25,000 acres of diverse "checkerboard" habitat.
The area hunters see (and hear) twice as many birds! Hunting is fantastic, birds everywhere, but for how long?

During the first 2 or 3 years after the big cut, that big clear-cut may have inadequate cover to protect turkeys from predation, and may actually offer very reduced food sources. Typically, large clear-cuts are sprayed with chemicals that kill everything growing, then a year later, planted in pine seedlings. There can be a 2 or 3 year period of lessened food supply. Worse, once the food supply begins coming back, the turkeys (which may be in the short-term over-populated beyond food sources), begin venture into this big open clear-cut for new food sources, making themselves more vulnerable than ever to predation from raptors, coyotes, etc., as well as human hunters.

Sometime, may be a year or two, may be several years, that entire 50,000 acre block is supporting a lot less turkeys than before the big cut. Worse, about the time food & cover may be coming back to the big cut, the other 25,000 acre block gets clear-cut, now leaving less habitat diversity, less food sources, than before the 1st cut.

Just but one example of how turkey populations can go from appearing abundant to scarce in only a couple years or so.

Imagine further, if during this time frame, longer-range turkey guns come into play, better decoys, low-cost & efficient "pop-up" blinds, plus the TWRA INCREASING the spring turkey limit from 3 to 4 birds. The human hunter kill may remain "stable", maybe even increase, as the turkey population is plummeting.

 

[TheLBLman]

I tend to agree with the perfect storm of contributing factors but also believe killing a larger % of the gobblers while the population was steadily shrinking exacerbated the outcome.

You nailed it!

IMO, one the single biggest contributing factors to our statewide turkey decline (in areas once having very good, healthy turkey populations)
was the TWRA increasing the spring limit from 2 to 3 birds, then later increasing it from 3 to 4 birds.

One reason this is SO SIGNIFICANT is simply because it's one of the few factors that we can actually control.
There's little we can do about the increasing number of hawks & eagles adapting to target turkeys.
There's little we can do about a timber company clear-cutting a huge block of land.
There's NOTHING we can do about the weather.

But the regs, that's the one area we can do something with the stoke of a pen.

 

[Boll Weevil]

The human hunter kill may remain "stable", maybe even increase, as the turkey population is plummeting.

^
^This, and once the population hits a given threshold it's hard to recover...there's just too little seed stock to overcome natural mortality.

 

[th88]

I noticed the decline in turkey sightings after Williamette sold out. Mainly in Hickman, Perry, and Lewis counties. I think it was Hughes lumber company that bought them. The cutting practices changed drastically. Miles of clear cuts from Hughes. Checkerboarding by Williamette made for some great deer and turkey habitat. Large expanses of cuts by Hughes completely changed those counties.

This is a sudden, huge reduction in biodiversity.
What you just described has often been the single biggest factor in regional turkey declines ("region" being a part of a county).

But by hunter observations, sometimes the immediate decline is not as bad as its appearance.

Think about this.

Say you had an area of about 50,000 acres, and that area is currently mostly very mixed habitat of mature pines, mature timber, some timber that has been recently select-cut, some young pine parcels. BUT, key is that all the different habitats tend to be 10 to 100 acres in size, and there is somewhat a "checkerboard" pattern of all these different habits closely bordering each other. Every one of these different habitats may exist in EACH square mile over the 50,000 acres.

Now, this 50,000 acres (such as a county portion about 15 miles long x 5 miles wide) might have be supporting an average ongoing population of about 800 adult turkeys, with most of the areas turkey hunters considering the turkey hunting "decent".

To add perspective, a county that's 25 miles long x 25 miles wide would contain about 400,000 acres,
so 50,000 can easily be less than 15% of a county's acreage.

But now, come in and clear-cut 25,000 acres in a single homogeneous cut.
This leaves bare dirt, essentially no cover, on 50% of those particular 50,000 acres referenced.
Where do the turkeys suddenly go that HAD lived there?

Well, they are now 2x concentrated on the remaining 25,000 acres of diverse "checkerboard" habitat.
The area hunters see (and hear) twice as many birds! Hunting is fantastic, birds everywhere, but for how long?

During the first 2 or 3 years after the big cut, that big clear-cut may have inadequate cover to protect turkeys from predation, and may actually offer very reduced food sources. Typically, large clear-cuts are sprayed with chemicals that kill everything growing, then a year later, planted in pine seedlings. There can be a 2 or 3 year period of lessened food supply. Worse, once the food supply begins coming back, the turkeys (which may be in the short-term over-populated beyond food sources), begin venture into this big open clear-cut for new food sources, making themselves more vulnerable than ever to predation from raptors, coyotes, etc., as well as human hunters.

Sometime, may be a year or two, may be several years, that entire 50,000 acre block is supporting a lot less turkeys than before the big cut. Worse, about the time food & cover may be coming back to the big cut, the other 25,000 acre block gets clear-cut, now leaving less habitat diversity, less food sources, than before the 1st cut.

Just but one example of how turkey populations can go from appearing abundant to scarce in only a couple years or so.

Imagine further, if during this time frame, longer-range turkey guns come into play, better decoys, low-cost & efficient "pop-up" blinds, plus the TWRA INCREASING the spring turkey limit from 3 to 4 birds. The human hunter kill may remain "stable", maybe even increase, as the turkey population is plummeting.

BOOM! There it is, in much more detail than I cared to take the time to explain. Definitely applies to Wayne County.

 

[volsrock]

so you are telling me habitat change is the prob in south wayne co. hahahaa. yep sounds as good as a excuse as any!!!! 2 nd largest county in the state and the least populated!!! yep no where for the turkeys to live unlike 10 yrs ago. give me a break. u guys are funny!!!

 

[poorhunter]

so you are telling me habitat change is the prob in south wayne co. hahahaa. yep sounds as good as a excuse as any!!!! 2 nd largest county in the state and the least populated!!! yep no where for the turkeys to live unlike 10 yrs ago. give me a break. u guys are funny!!!

I wouldn't have said it this way, but I agree that it is not likely the habitat change by Hughes cutting larger tracts into clearcuts is THE main problem, or even a big problem. The area I hunt in SW Hickman has experienced "the decline" in the last 3-5 years and there ain't clear cut one nearby. I don't know of anyone who has spread chicken litter (not saying there hasn't been either). What I do know is that in the 8 square miles that most of my farms are in has very little hunting pressure, and the farms I hunt on it's only me that hunts. I've only ever seen another hunter using decoys once in all the open pastures I drive by that were one time full of turkeys every day. Now? Instead of seeing turkeys (LOTS of turkeys) in several pastures on the drive back home, most days I don't see any turkeys at all. Low pressure, no decoys, no chicken litter, no clear cuts, and no turkeys in a matter of two years. I say disease is the only thing that could have done it, most likely aflatoxin.