Pope & Young Poll - Legalize Lighted Knocks?

[gil1]

I'm an official P&Y scorer. Last year, I had to tell a guy who used lighted knocks to kill a 135 net score buck (I scored it anyway just for fun) that his deer didn't qualify because the rule states "no electronics attached to the bow or arrow." He was bummed, and I might have been even more bummed. But I understood the reasons behind the rule.

I am excited that there is now a poll out giving P&Y members the chance to weigh in since the Board is split on the matter. I think there are some great arguments for either side, but I'd like to hear your opinions before I vote. If you are a member, you can go on-line to the Members-Only section and vote.

The next post will have all the info. I received in the letter. It might help you to read through it to familiarize yourself with the organization's opinions on the matter.

Thanks in advance.

 

[gil1]

TO: Pope and Young Club Members
FROM: Your Board of Directors

One of the Pope and Young Club�s longstanding positions is that hunting bows and arrows should not incorporate electronic components nor should they have electronic items attached to them. That position is facing more and more resistance, embodied most obviously at this time in the growing popularity and use of battery-powered lighted nocks on hunting arrows.

Your Board of Directors has thoroughly examined and discussed this timely subject and is evenly split between maintaining the no-electronics principle and proposing a by-laws change allowing lighted nocks. Consequently, we are seeking input from the entire membership. Valid arguments for and against change exist. Undoubtedly, many Pope and Young Club members have already heard the pro and con discussions about lighted nocks and formed an opinion. Regardless, here are a mere handful of pertinent points commonly presented in support of and opposition to making this change:

IN SUPPORT OF THE EXISTING RULE

Unchecked technological advancements threaten existing bowhunting opportunities and the future of a sport that is based on the willing acceptance of equipment limitations, as well as the values of challenge, simplicity, discipline, skill and patience that bowhunters seek.

The Club's long-established rules were thoughtfully crafted to reflect values and principles that have served our organization and bowhunting well for 50+ years. Our "line in the sand" on electronics is a clear, understandable and defendable position. Any effected changes when made, should always be based on what's right for bowhunting, not what's merely popular.

Embracing lighted nocks may be interpreted by the public and media as admitting that bowhunters have a problem with wounding and recovering animals and need a product to fix the "problem"--the very arguments bowhunters and legislators are using in favor of lighted nocks. The Club would be better served to educate today's bowhunters about shot placement and ethical restraint in not choosing risky shots, instead of encouraging use of a product or technology as a crutch to overcome any deficiency.

The Pope and Young Club is held in high esteem by many who consider it a reliable champion of ethical, responsible, fair chase bowhunting. Our stated mission is to promote our heritage and values in order to preserve the future of our sport. Lighted nocks are only one of many products now being marketed that challenge our rules. The expected influx of new technologies and electronics will yield many more new products; making an exception for one item opens the door to requests for additional exemptions to, or elimination of, our rules. It not only erases a clearly defined policy but invites future requests for product "endorsements."

The arguments we've all heard favoring a change to accept lighted nocks are the arguments that could be used for a myriad of products currently on the market or yet to be invented.

IN SUPPORT OF CHANGING THE EXISTING RULE

Lighted nocks are increasingly popular items which are legal in many states. Their sole advantage is visual, improving a shooter's ability to follow fast-flying arrows and pinpoint their point of impact. The glowing nocks also improve chances for the recovery of expensive hunting arrows on missed or pass-through shots.

Many bowhunters using lighted nocks are unaware of the Pope and Young Club's electronics rule. Each year official measurers inform successful hunters their animals are ineligible for the Pope and Young Club's records. This disappoints bowhunters and creates the perception that legally taken trophy-class animals are somehow unworthy of recognition. We alienate potential Club members or supporters and deprive ourselves of entry fee revenue.

A potential exists that a possible World Record will be taken by an arrow equipped with a battery-operated lighted nock. As was the case with the Club's former "65% let-off compound bow rule," when a giant non-typical whitetail buck was taken with a higher let-off bow, we did not recognize a legally harvested animal until our let-off rule was eventually changed. Will history repeat itself?

One false public perception is that our Club is a traditional-based organization whose leaders are mostly anti-compound, anti-archery industry, close-minded bowhunters who cling to the past and resist all change. We must consider making reasonable changes that our membership supports.

It is desirable and possible for the Pope and Young Club to balance its traditional values and its position on bowhunting's principles with the reality of twenty-first century bowhunting, embracing our heritage while accepting change.

 

[Roost 1]

IMO a lighted nick offers no afvantage to harvesting a trophy animal. I say allow them!!!

 

[TN Larry]

IMO a lighted nick offers no afvantage to harvesting a trophy animal. I say allow them!!!

X2

 

[deerhunter10]

IMO a lighted nick offers no afvantage to harvesting a trophy animal. I say allow them!!!

x3! its a way to save a 6-10 dollar arrow.

 

[catman529]

I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed. Does P&Y have an agreement with arrow manufacturers to encourage more hunters to lose their arrows in the woods?

 

[Snake]

IMO a lighted nick offers no afvantage to harvesting a trophy animal. I say allow them!!!

x3! its a way to save a 6-10 dollar arrow.

No advantage at all , man let's use common sense !

 

[Elmer]

Lets enforce common sense. Using lighted knocks you can make a better decision on when to take up the trail after shooting in low light. It also helps recover an arrow. I really can't believe this is an issue

 

[Diehard Hunter]

If they are going to be that particular, maybe they should stick with what Ishi taught Dr. Pope, and eliminate anything that has come along since then.

For goodness sakes, that lighted nock doesn't even activate until after all the skill of bow hunting has been brought to bare on the animal! It does not aid in killing that animal in any way. It does help to recover the arrow, and that may influence your decision as to when to take up the trail, but it doesn't kill the animal any deader, and it doesn't lessen the skill needed to kill the animal with a bow.

 

[REM7]

IMO a lighted nick offers no afvantage to harvesting a trophy animal. I say allow them!!!

x3! its a way to save a 6-10 dollar arrow.

No advantage at all , man let's use common sense !

Snake said it best, its simple common sense that lighted nock has NO advantage for the kill. Just easier to find an high dollar arrow and head.

 

[Bone Collector]

allow them

 

[nabowhunter]

Of all the advantages that today's bowhunter has over bowhunters 50 years ago, the lighted nock has to rank very low on the list.

One of many reasons I will not enter an animal in any record book. Geez!

 

[usanglure]

ALLOW

 

[infoman jr.]

That's a silly rule in this case.

 

[Football Hunter]

That's a silly rule in this case.

agree

 

[bowriter]

A lighted nock does nothing to increase your ability tokill a deer. So, why would you not allow them. Just another P&Y example of poor thinking. Their contention, though maybe not spoken, is they make it easier to shoot at night. MY contention is so does a spotlight or a full moon. You can not legislate morality.

Allow the dan things and crossbow, too.

 

[Anonymous]

Not only that but a lighted nock makes it that much easier to see where the deer was hit or where the arrow is and that in turn makes for a more humane recovery. That is the intent anyway.

 

[bowriter]

When I resigned from P&Y after nine of membership, it was 100% due to their hypocrasy. Sad to say, it has gotten worse. They have become downright stupid.

 

[MattR]

Re: Pope & Young Poll - Legalize Lighted Knocks?

Yea. Agree with everyone it seems a bit silly.

 

[gil1]

I totally get what you're saying folks, but I think some didn't read P&Y's reasoning. They never said the rule was in place because they think lighted knocks give a hunter an advantage. And there's certainly zero there about fear of night hunting.

Although I get their reasoning for not allowing lighted knocks (listed above in the thread), I voted to change the rule because I don't believe there's enough there to justify keeping them banned from the record books. It's just the right thing for the club at this time IMO.

I'm a big fan of these folks. There's no hypocrisy that I can see or I wouldn't be involved. They don't celebrate the hunter - they celebrate the animal. They are giving their members the ability to make policy, and that's a refreshing and stand-up way to do business.

 

[TRIGGER]

I agree with everyone else.

 

[Poleaxe]

No offense to the ones that do but I think that if they allow bucks in that were killed with a crossbow then a little thing such as a lighted knock should be allowed. Like I said no offense to the ones that do.

 

[bowriter]

Re: Pope & Young Poll - Legalize Lighted Knocks?

I totally get what you're saying folks, but I think some didn't read P&Y's reasoning. They never said the rule was in place because they think lighted knocks give a hunter an advantage. And there's certainly zero there about fear of night hunting.

Although I get their reasoning for not allowing lighted knocks (listed above in the thread), I voted to change the rule because I don't believe there's enough there to justify keeping them banned from the record books. It's just the right thing for the club at this time IMO.

I'm a big fan of these folks. There's no hypocrisy that I can see or I wouldn't be involved. They don't celebrate the hunter - they celebrate the animal. They are giving their members the ability to make policy, and that's a refreshing and stand-up way to do business.

Gil-If they celebrated the animal, they would not post the hunter's name. If they did that, they would have about six members. The original purpose was to celebrate the animal, that went by the wayside many years ago. Would you have written the check if your name was not listed?

If there was no hypocrisy, they would not put an * by the deer killed with compounds with more than 65% letoff (maybe they don't any more). So if they celebrate the animal, what difference does it make what sort of bow it was killed with? Why did they consider, (maybe did) publishing a seperate book for traditional archery? Is that animal different?

Many good friends of mine are past presidents and on the board. It was, when I first became a member, an organization that I felt did good work. Then, as technology began to blossom in archery, they became a somewhat bitter, totally ego driven, hypocritical organization in which it is impossible to move into the upper levels until some old man dies.

For nine years, I payed my dues, knowing I could never live long enough to become a senior member. I did so because I believed in what they were doing. That changed with their kicking and screaming stance against the 65% letoff deal. It may well be, one would have to know what went on to understand that. In my resignation letter to Glenn, I dared him to publish it. Of course he did not. For the membership to even consider voting on allowing animals killed with 65% or more letoff, the board had to bring it to as vote. That would not have happened had the industry not applied pressure. Of course, when it came to a vote, it was approved.

Having no choice, the board then decided to make that animal a lesser animal by saying "yes but..." by placing an astrisk * by the listing. That hypocritical move is when I jumped ship despite urgings not to by several board members.

If they were an organization that really did celebrate the animal, I would be a member in a heartbeat and would register all of the 19-animals I have killed that qualify.

 

[gil1]

No offense to the ones that do but I think that if they allow bucks in that were killed with a crossbow then a little thing such as a lighted knock should be allowed. Like I said no offense to the ones that do.

They don't allow animals taken with a crossbow because crossbows don't fit the (or their) definition of a bow. I am a big fan of crossbows in every way, but I agree that crossbows don't fit in that category.

 

[gil1]

I totally get what you're saying folks, but I think some didn't read P&Y's reasoning. They never said the rule was in place because they think lighted knocks give a hunter an advantage. And there's certainly zero there about fear of night hunting.

Although I get their reasoning for not allowing lighted knocks (listed above in the thread), I voted to change the rule because I don't believe there's enough there to justify keeping them banned from the record books. It's just the right thing for the club at this time IMO.

I'm a big fan of these folks. There's no hypocrisy that I can see or I wouldn't be involved. They don't celebrate the hunter - they celebrate the animal. They are giving their members the ability to make policy, and that's a refreshing and stand-up way to do business.

Gil-If they celebrated the animal, they would not post the hunter's name. If they did that, they would have about six members. The original purpose was to celebrate the animal, that went by the wayside many years ago. Would you have written the check if your name was not listed?

If there was no hypocrisy, they would not put an * by the deer killed with compounds with more than 65% letoff (maybe they don't any more). So if they celebrate the animal, what difference does it make what sort of bow it was killed with? Why did they consider, (maybe did) publishing a seperate book for traditional archery? Is that animal different?

Many good friends of mine are past presidents and on the board. It was, when I first became a member, an organization that I felt did good work. Then, as technology began to blossom in archery, they became a somewhat bitter, totally ego driven, hypocritical organization in which it is impossible to move into the upper levels until some old man dies.

For nine years, I payed my dues, knowing I could never live long enough to become a senior member. I did so because I believed in what they were doing. That changed with their kicking and screaming stance against the 65% letoff deal. It may well be, one would have to know what went on to understand that. In my resignation letter to Glenn, I dared him to publish it. Of course he did not. For the membership to even consider voting on allowing animals killed with 65% or more letoff, the board had to bring it to as vote. That would not have happened had the industry not applied pressure. Of course, when it came to a vote, it was approved.

Having no choice, the board then decided to make that animal a lesser animal by saying "yes but..." by placing an astrisk * by the listing. That hypocritical move is when I jumped ship despite urgings not to by several board members.

If they were an organization that really did celebrate the animal, I would be a member in a heartbeat and would register all of the 19-animals I have killed that qualify.

I agree with some of your opinions but not others.

You said they changed their celebration from the animal to the hunter, but they haven't. They always listed the hunter's name. I think you can still put the hunter's name and celebrate the animal. Like you said, nobody would sign up otherwise.

John, what I failed to mention before is that they also celebrate bowhunting. They have to preserve order as to what constitutes a bow while also changing with the times. Those two philosophies are hard to mix. I think the let-off deal was a mistake, but hypocrisy is a strong word, and you haven't proven tome that there is one iota of it here.

I know it's a stretch of an analogy, but it's sort of like moving the three point line a few feet in and awarding 2 1/2 points. The new bows with higher let-offs make it a little easier to shoot, so I assume they didn't want to give full credit to those who had an easier route. One of the problems is that that will never stop. Technology will always come up with a better hunting weapon. I'd call it extremely awkward and even a mistake, but hypocrisy doesn't fit in my book.

As far as tough to move up until someone dies, I'll take your word on that. I have no idea.

I like the background, though. I admit I don't have your knowledge of the history. I'm just interpreting what I see in the present.

 

[bowriter]

As far as tough to move up until someone dies, I'll take your word on that. I have no idea.

Gil- They only allow so many senior members. To ascend to that status, one of the current sr members must die or resign. Then you move up in order of who is next in line. If someone say, 45-yrs old becomes a member, they would never live long enough to become a sr. member. Unless they have changed that. I have not given the organization any attention since I resigned. At that time, I would have been physically impossible for me to ever become a sr. member.

 

[gil1]

Gil- They only allow so many senior members. To ascend to that status, one of the current sr members must die or resign. Then you move up in order of who is next in line. If someone say, 45-yrs old becomes a member, they would never live long enough to become a sr. member. Unless they have changed that. I have not given the organization any attention since I resigned. At that time, I would have been physically impossible for me to ever become a sr. member.

I was curious and looked it up. One thing it says is "The number of Senior Members will be unlimited in quantity." Now, I have no idea how they work things, but it seems to me it would be difficult to get the required 90% of the 420 senior members who vote on senior membership to vote folks out until someone dies or leaves. Just sayin...

You are probably the biggest proponent of bow hunting I can think of. Maybe you should rethink it, get to know the club again, and put in for senior membership. If you have the gumption, you would be a strong voice for the organization and could affect change. If you have attended two of their conventions, you would immediately qualify.

SENIOR MEMBER
Requirements:
1. There will be no automatic advancement (i.e., after a certain number of years) of a Regular Member to Senior Membership.

2. The advancement from Regular Membership to Senior Membership can occur after eight (8) years as a Regular Member, provided the longstanding �hunting� requirements (animals) are met AND additional participation criteria are met AND the candidate is approved by vote.

3. An applicant for Senior Membership will be required to:

a.) Attend at least two biennial conventions, AND
b.) Exhibit sufficient Club involvement (i.e., measurer, committee member, volunteer, etc.), AND
c.) Exhibit sufficient participation in at least two (2) of the following categories:
1.) State/local bowhunting organization
2.) Mentoring
3.) Conservation activities
d.) Have taken, with a bow and arrow, at least four (4) different species of North American big game
e.) Have at least three (3) different species listed in the P&Y Records Program

4. The vote of new Senior Members, by the Senior membership, will be a �Yes or No� vote (i.e., no �abstain� option). The applicant will need to receive �Yes� votes totaling at least 90% of the returned ballots to be accepted as a Senior Member. If an applicant receives less than the required 90% �Yes� vote, he/she may reapply in three years.

5. The number of Senior Members will be unlimited in quantity.

Procedures:
A Regular Member must apply for Senior Membership by requesting and completing an application. A Senior Membership Committee (made up of existing Senior Members) will review the application to ensure minimum participation requirements are fulfilled. Once the time requirement has been met, the candidate�s name is sent on to the existing Senior Members for vote.

Membership Totals (as of 1/2/2012)

Associate Members 6,204
Lifetime Associate Members 162
Regular Members 170
Senior Members 420
Youth Members 3

 

[bowriter]

As I said, they may have changed it.

 

[HOOK]

I'm an official P&Y scorer. Last year, I had to tell a guy who used lighted knocks to kill a 135 net .

FIRST all I didn't know you could kill a deer with a knock.
Second all who really cares what P&Y thinks...It's a jacked up scoring system.

 

[gil1]

Re: Pope & Young Poll - Legalize Lighted Knocks?

I'm an official P&Y scorer. Last year, I had to tell a guy who used lighted knocks to kill a 135 net .

FIRST all I didn't know you could kill a deer with a knock.
Second all who really cares what P&Y thinks...It's a jacked up scoring system.

Very constructive.