Growing Mature Bucks

BSK

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No doubt, the buck you have in your pics is way below average antler genetics, something that typically cannot be concluded until 4 1/2 or older.
I used to think that as well. But recently I went back through all of the bucks from one of the projects I have the most data for. It is a property where we usually catalog near or in excess of 100 unique bucks per year. I have quite a few years of data for this property. What I didn't find was bottom-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s (fork-horns and 6-pointers) that ever amounted to anything above average at maturity. I'm sure it's not impossible, but very rare for this to occur. The only thing I DID find from time to time was very "average" 3 1/2 year-old 8 pointers suddenly exploding at 4 1/2 and 5 1/2.
 

Ski

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Hey, we've been running 8-10% mature bucks for 20 years and we sure haven't killed that many of them! Either we suck as hunters (a real possibility), or they are darn hard critters to kill!

They're darn hard to kill! I've killed a few and although I'd like to say I planned each kill to the last detail, truth is there was luck involved every single time.

I'd love to have those numbers here. I'm just not sure what to do, if I can do anything at all. I'd like to think it's something I could manipulate via habitat or hunting. It could also be possible that I am expecting too much. I might be misidentifying 3 & 4 year olds thinking they're only 2. I'm having a tough time aging some of these southern deer. Unless I have history with the buck it's tough for me guess. I find a whole lot of scrapes & rubs, often big rubs and in high concentration. I know it's usually older deer that create that kind of sign but either my cams don't see them doing it or else I'm expecting them to look older & bigger than what I see.
 

JCDEERMAN

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JCDEERMAN, what you're talking about here comes across to me as very different to what BSK implied in his above post.
You're simply talking about killing a fully mature buck,
and calling him a "management" buck.

I'd also kill that one, assuming I had the tag to utilize on him.


Very different than calling younger bucks "culls" when those doing the calling are often mistaken about those antler genetics. No doubt, the buck you have in your pics is way below average antler genetics, something that typically cannot be concluded until 4 1/2 or older.
You're right - I didn't distinguish that very well. We typically try to wait until maturity regardless to see their potential. I do atleast. The top end ones are typically targeted by most hunters at our camp. I think this dude is the smallest racked mature deer we have ever seen. He is on most all our cameras on our property, without a fear in the world…from humans or other bucks. And why would he fear? He's never been sought after due to his inferior genetics. Our furthest cameras are about 1.5 miles apart. He's bristled up in most all pics with other deer. Definitely appears to be a bully. Even more so why I want him taken out.
 

Ski

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I used to think that as well. But recently I went back through all of the bucks from one of the projects I have the most data for. It is a property where we usually catalog near or in excess of 100 unique bucks per year. I have quite a few years of data for this property. What I didn't find was bottom-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s (fork-horns and 6-pointers) that ever amounted to anything above average at maturity. I'm sure it's not impossible, but very rare for this to occur. The only thing I DID find from time to time was very "average" 3 1/2 year-old 8 pointers suddenly exploding at 4 1/2 and 5 1/2.

I don't have a lot of experience in TN yet, but what you describe there is exactly what I've seen elsewhere. Like anything I'm sure there are outliers & exceptions, but generally speaking I've found that big young ones turn into big old ones, and little young ones turn into little young ones. I saw a study report once (I think Auburn???) where a buck's potential as a mature adult is largely dictated by the mother's health during the first trimester of pregnancy. The gist of it was that dominant, mature, matriarch does who get dibs on fawning grounds produce the biggest bucks, and likewise.
 

Ski

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He's bristled up in most all pics with other deer. Definitely appears to be a bully. Even more so why I want him taken out.

Get rid of him. Else you'll end up with something like this. Those are all different bucks on the same property, and all this season. Every single one is beaten up, damaged, or weird. Been like this for a couple years now. Last year was same way. Year before that bucks looked normal. I think I killed the buck doing it. He was broken up too so only had 4pts left on his head, but he was 50-75lbs heavier than the 10pt I killed a day later. I'm not sure he was not what has been keeping older bucks at bay just because he's such a nuisance. It's strange for me to see so many very young bucks on one property beaten up and broken like that. I don't care if the Rosie O'Donnell was going to become a booner in a year or two. He had to go. On the bright side, I should have some interesting non-typical racks to look forward to next couple years!
 

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Ski

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These were last year.
 

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Ski

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This was the buck I suspected doing it. Not much at all for rack. By mid season he was limping, carrying his front left leg, and had his brow already broken off. The second pic was his typical demeanor toward any other buck, even does. Dude was nasty. He was on every camera almost every day. Didn't grow much at all rack wise from last year to this but his body sure did. Still just as ornery, so I popped him.
 

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JCDEERMAN

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This was the buck I suspected doing it. Not much at all for rack. By mid season he was limping, carrying his front left leg, and had his brow already broken off. The second pic was his typical demeanor toward any other buck, even does. Dude was nasty. He was on every camera almost every day. Didn't grow much at all rack wise from last year to this but his body sure did. Still just as ornery, so I popped him.
He looks like the twin of the one I posted! Except for opposite brows
 

JCDEERMAN

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Get rid of him. Else you'll end up with something like this. Those are all different bucks on the same property, and all this season. Every single one is beaten up, damaged, or weird. Been like this for a couple years now. Last year was same way. Year before that bucks looked normal. I think I killed the buck doing it. He was broken up too so only had 4pts left on his head, but he was 50-75lbs heavier than the 10pt I killed a day later. I'm not sure he was not what has been keeping older bucks at bay just because he's such a nuisance. It's strange for me to see so many very young bucks on one property beaten up and broken like that. I don't care if the ******* was going to become a booner in a year or two. He had to go. On the bright side, I should have some interesting non-typical racks to look forward to next couple years!
We don't have many that are busted up from this year. But we definitely did last year and a lot of them had bad pedicle damage going into this year. I don't ever remember the significant numbers of antler breaks as I did last year. This year, it is definitely showing it - the bucks that did stick around have really bad abnormalities….so just be careful what you wish for. I like abnormality, but not like this. I'll have to go back and see if this dude was around last year.

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Chickenrig

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As TheLBLman mentioned, be very careful about culling yearlings based on antler quality. Because they are so young, yearling buck antler development is based heavily on just one summer's food resources. Normally, we have a spike yearling incidence rate of only around 30% (30% of yearlings are spikes). This year, because of the drought, over 70% of our yearlings are spikes. If you started whacking spike yearlings, you would just about kill off the entire year's crop of young bucks.

Now if hunters want to add "mangement bucks" into the picture, I have no problem with that. For landowners that are managing for maximum antler quality I even recommend it. Bottom-end 2 1/2s and 3 1/2s are far less likely to ever be a top-end mature bucks, hence adding them to the "hit list" gives hunters more bucks to target (as the list of top-end mature bucks is usually quite short).

The below buck is an example. The first picture is a big fork-horn as a 2 1/2 year-old. The second picture is him as a 3 1/2 year-old. He's never going to be a top-end mature buck. Placing him on the "hit list" to give hunters another buck to shoot for makes sense. He's just "taking up space" and will never be what hunters want no matter how old he gets.
BSK
Don't take me wrong ,i didn't mean to take yearlings at all , but like you stated if a buck at 2 1/2 yrs old isn't showing signs of good antler growth then chances are he is not going to be a first class deer . I just meant that nowadays most hunters believe that if you let a spike walk or a buck with no eye guards that he will magically grow into a trophy . Plus he doesn't look good on the wall of faces . I applaud these hunters that take spikes and post em up !!!
I live in a county where its a 3 point on one side rule . I have 3 3 1/2 year old spikes that need culling . What do i do about that ???
 

Chickenrig

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I say that may do more harm than good in a free-ranging herd most places in TN, where deer regularly use a multitude of properties under different ownership and different hunters on each property. What happens is you actually increase the harvest of the very bucks you're most wanting to protect.

In theory, the idea makes perfect sense.
Same with the "breeder" bucks.
Reality is often very different.
I reckon there is no golden answer then !
 

Chickenrig

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I don't have a lot of experience in TN yet, but what you describe there is exactly what I've seen elsewhere. Like anything I'm sure there are outliers & exceptions, but generally speaking I've found that big young ones turn into big old ones, and little young ones turn into little young ones. I saw a study report once (I think Auburn???) where a buck's potential as a mature adult is largely dictated by the mother's health during the first trimester of pregnancy. The gist of it was that dominant, mature, matriarch does who get dibs on fawning grounds produce the biggest bucks, and likewise.
I tend to agree with that statement .
 

BSK

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BSK
Don't take me wrong ,i didn't mean to take yearlings at all , but like you stated if a buck at 2 1/2 yrs old isn't showing signs of good antler growth then chances are he is not going to be a first class deer . I just meant that nowadays most hunters believe that if you let a spike walk or a buck with no eye guards that he will magically grow into a trophy .
Agree completely. As I keep pointing out to hunters, the average 4 1/2 year-old buck only grosses 120 in my region. That's not a monster. Nice, but no monster. It takes unique genetics, good resources, and a low stress environment for bucks to become true monsters.

Plus he doesn't look good on the wall of faces . I applaud these hunters that take spikes and post em up !!!
I live in a county where its a 3 point on one side rule . I have 3 3 1/2 year old spikes that need culling . What do i do about that ???
And another reason I don't like antler restrictions. Yes they can increase buck age structure. But they exacerbate high-grading problems, and there are better ways to increase buck age structure.
 

BSK

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I saw a study report once (I think Auburn???) where a buck's potential as a mature adult is largely dictated by the mother's health during the first trimester of pregnancy. The gist of it was that dominant, mature, matriarch does who get dibs on fawning grounds produce the biggest bucks, and likewise.
A growing number of studies have been conducted on this phenomenon. The basic problem/principle being studied is, when food resources are suddenly increased, why don't deer in the population immediately respond by growing bigger? The answer most likely lies in the little understood process of epigenetics. Epigenetics is the process by which life experiences alter the timing of gene expression during development. What it basically comes down to is life stresses can change how you develop as a fetus and as a young person. And because these stress-induced changes are tied to your chromosomes, they can be heritable (passed down from one generation to the next). They do not involve changes to your DNA, but are bits of amino acid chain "stuck" to your DNA that alter when and for how long genes turn on and off during development, which can have life-long ramifications.

In practical terms, what this means is does that have been nutritionally stressed at some point in their lives can later produce offspring that cannot develop to their genetic potential their entire lives. It may take a generation or two to get rid of this epigenetic limiter. In fact, this is most likely why most management programs don't see explosive results once a property's resources are dramatically improved. What is usually seen is a slow progression of better body and antler size over a decade or more. In reality, the entire generation of deer that lived under the poor resource conditions have to die off and be replaced by fawns born under the good conditions, and then THEY produce a set of offspring that no longer have the epigenetic limiter in their system.
 

DoubleRidge

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A growing number of studies have been conducted on this phenomenon. The basic problem/principle being studied is, when food resources are suddenly increased, why don't deer in the population immediately respond by growing bigger? The answer most likely lies in the little understood process of epigenetics. Epigenetics is the process by which life experiences alter the timing of gene expression during development. What it basically comes down to is life stresses can change how you develop as a fetus and as a young person. And because these stress-induced changes are tied to your chromosomes, they can be heritable (passed down from one generation to the next). They do not involve changes to your DNA, but are bits of amino acid chain "stuck" to your DNA that alter when and for how long genes turn on and off during development, which can have life-long ramifications.

In practical terms, what this means is does that have been nutritionally stressed at some point in their lives can later produce offspring that cannot develop to their genetic potential their entire lives. It may take a generation or two to get rid of this epigenetic limiter. In fact, this is most likely why most management programs don't see explosive results once a property's resources are dramatically improved. What is usually seen is a slow progression of better body and antler size over a decade or more. In reality, the entire generation of deer that lived under the poor resource conditions have to die off and be replaced by fawns born under the good conditions, and then THEY produce a set of offspring that no longer have the epigenetic limiter in their system.

The topic of epigenetic response or epigenetic triggers is fascinating to me.
Just yesterday I listened to a MSU Deer University podcast that compared South Texas and the South East and several topics we're discussed but genetics in general were discussed as well as epigenetics.....They echo what BSK has said many times...the average buck at maturity will be around 120" to 125" in South Texas, in Tennessee and in Georgia... Difference being in South Texas their are larger land holdings under extensive management so more bucks are allowed to express their genetic potential.....but it's the epigenetic triggers that really fascinate me because we are getting ready to enter year four following an extensive timber stand improvement and each year we're trying to improve our food plot program...being patient and understanding that it can take years to see a response...but we're already seeing so much potential....very motivated to keep on working on habitat projects for the future....very rewarding when you see a positive response.
 

Boll Weevil

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The topic of epigenetic response or epigenetic triggers is fascinating to me.
Me too.

My farm has hardly been managed by clearly defined protocols founded in epigenetic research over the last decade (like one might find in a grant study for example). That being said, the more I study epigenetics and the more outcomes observed over time, the more I see this underlying phenomenon likely at work.

Someone posed a question in another thread awhile back about how many times do you get "big deer" on camera each year (140+)? When we started our journey in 2011 the answer was absolutely zero...today it's every year.
 

DoubleRidge

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Me too.

My farm has hardly been managed by clearly defined protocols founded in epigenetic research over the last decade (like one might find in a grant study for example). That being said, the more I study epigenetics and the more outcomes observed over time, the more I see this underlying phenomenon likely at work.

Someone posed a question in another thread awhile back about how many times do you get "big deer" on camera each year (140+)? When we started our journey in 2011 the answer was absolutely zero...today it's every year.
Boll Weevil....appreciate the comments....always encouraging and motivating to hear of others successes and results....such an interesting topic.
 

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