BSK: Reasonable expectations

[fairchaser]

Ames is a good example of what an intensely managed property can produce on a regular basis in West Tennessee. I doubt their results could be replicated in every part of the state, however, due to differences in soil and habitat and hunters. Ames hunters are generally more experienced in hunting mature bucks simply because they have to up their game to be successful. When you have strict enforceable rules, experienced and dedicated hunters, a balanced herd, it is reasonable to average 130+ bucks on a regular basis with a success rate of 25% to 35%. That's not potential but actual results.

fairchaser,

I do not doubt these numbers one bit. But again, I want to emphasize my definition of "realistic expectations" as being what the majority of hunters will (or could) kill year after year. If only 25-35% of hunters are killing a 130+ buck each year, that is not what I would consider realistic expectations. Realistic expectations would be what I believe 75% of hunters would have the opportunity to kill in a given year. In essence, what size buck would the large majority of hunters have in weapon range at least once during a given year (i.e. have a realistic opportunity to kill). Not potentially have in range, but ACTUALLY have in range.

BSK, I get your point. It's not realistic that the majority of hunters would kill a 130 buck however, the majority would have that buck within killing range each year at least they do at Ames based on reported sightings. Do to various reasons such as the ability to judge the deer quickly enough, allowing room for error, wanting to pass for something larger or getting a clear shot, the hunter does not kill. Based on past reported sightings, the average is 2-3 sightings of 125+ bucks each season.

 

[TLRanger]

We're the antler restrictions at Natchez on the North or South?

South side.....Guess I was just lucky.......Not really for antler restrictions but it did help the age of the bucks on Natchez Trace. I saw more buck sign and more bucks while the restriction was in place. I had much rather see a one buck limit to all WMAs that are open same as statewide plus a reduction of the doe harvest to only one per hunter per year. I really think it make public hunting land far more appealing to the hunters that hunt there.

 

[BSK]

BSK, I get your point. It's not realistic that the majority of hunters would kill a 130 buck however, the majority would have that buck within killing range each year at least they do at Ames based on reported sightings. Do to various reasons such as the ability to judge the deer quickly enough, allowing room for error, wanting to pass for something larger or getting a clear shot, the hunter does not kill. Based on past reported sightings, the average is 2-3 sightings of 125+ bucks each season.

Thanks for the clarification fairchaser. Based on that information, a 125 gross buck WOULD be a realistic expectation for hunters on Ames.

 

[BSK]

We're the antler restrictions at Natchez on the North or South?

South side.....Guess I was just lucky.......Not really for antler restrictions but it did help the age of the bucks on Natchez Trace. I saw more buck sign and more bucks while the restriction was in place. I had much rather see a one buck limit to all WMAs that are open same as statewide plus a reduction of the doe harvest to only one per hunter per year. I really think it make public hunting land far more appealing to the hunters that hunt there.

I think the antler restrictions at Natchez DID help the buck age structure. How could it not? I don't think even the most severe critics of ARs don't doubt they save yearling bucks. The problem was the date and the way the area is hunted. That experiment occurred long before most hunters had had much experience successfully pursuing older bucks. As I've said many times, knowing how to hunt older bucks is just as important as actually having older bucks to hunt. Just because older bucks exist doesn't mean hunters are going to kill them with any regularity. Sure, lucky hunters will stumble into a few, but suddenly having more older bucks in the area isn't going to produce a sudden major surge in their harvest unless the hunters know how to hunt them. The sudden switch to a 2 buck limit in 1998 proves that. That buck limit change DID save a huge number of yearling bucks that year. Without question there was a much higher number of 2 1/2 year-old bucks the next year. Yet there was no surge at all in 2 1/2 year-old buck kills the following year. Those bucks existed in much greater number, but few if any hunters benefitted through harvest.

In addition, the way WMAs are hunted--by quotas and application, with little scouting time allowed--often means different hunters are hunting each open period, and these are hunters without much familiarity of the land. Walking into an unknown land situation is difficult for anybody, even experienced hunters. What I found interesting about the Natchez experiment was hunters on Natchez didn't seem to benefit. But hunters on surrounding private land certainly did! Some really nice older bucks were killed on surrounding private properties during those years. And the difference wasn't about bucks being chased off the WMA. It was all about hunters on surrounding lands knowing their hunting properties much better, often with years of hunting experience on those lands.

 

[Mike Belt]

I couldn't agree more about Natchez Trace. The bigger bucks did indeed come off the surrounding private lands. Familiarity with that land played a big role as well as the agriculture crops that were present on those surrounding properties. I think if that program had been carried on hunters would have begun to kill bucks off the park

 

[TN Whitetail Freak]

Most bucks will never ever reach 130 inches. Even if you put them up in a pen and fed them the best of feed, played "Baby Einstein" cd's for them, gave them daily back rubs and let them have their choice of the prettiest does, most just will not grow 130 inch antlers.

you ever been to a deer farm?

 

[BULL MOOSE]

There is a idea....draw access to wma for a season. Give a guy a chance to learn it, love it,and hunt it

 

[Hunter 257W]

Most bucks will never ever reach 130 inches. Even if you put them up in a pen and fed them the best of feed, played "Baby Einstein" cd's for them, gave them daily back rubs and let them have their choice of the prettiest does, most just will not grow 130 inch antlers.

you ever been to a deer farm?

Yes, I live just a few miles from one. They do grow some freaky/messy looking - but huge - bucks in those places but they have been selectively bred for many generations for large antlers. I was merely pointing out that if you could catch a sample of wild buck fawns and raise them in captivity with the best of everything, only a very few have that genetic potential.

 

[Shed Hunter]

There is a idea....draw access to wma for a season. Give a guy a chance to learn it, love it,and hunt it

I think it is best to just keep it how it is and let the ones that scout the WMAs tediously hunt them every year. The idea that hunters weren't successful because they didn't know the land will stay the same no matter what type of hunting regulations are in place. Everyone that has time to hunt has time to scout. Most procrastinate the scouting and it catches up to them because their hunt is a week away and they've wasted their available time throughout the year doing other things. Then come post season they have lost interest and neglect to go scout the WMAs they intend to hunt in the future. Even with WMAs being open year round most people are still not out there putting in the boot work to find a spot (which doesn't bother me by any means)

 

[muddyboots]

I must have a very good lease.

 

[BSK]

I must have a very good lease.

And that very well may be true muddyboots. I promise you the difference in potential/expectation across the state of TN can be truly vast. There is almost no comparison to between antler development in the eastern mountain region of the state versus the agricultural sections of the Nashville Basin. Absolutely night and day difference. Major differences can even occur within an individual county, depending upon localized habitat and soil conditions.

But I also think a lot of "differences" is more about perception rather than reality. It all comes down to the view of the individual. Do they see the glass half full or half empty? One hunter will see a mature 150-class buck killed from an area and say, "See, the area can grow 150-class bucks, if other hunters would just let bucks grow up." Another hunter will understand that 150-class mature buck was a statistical anomaly for the area and say, "Anyone holding out for a 150-class buck in the area is going to be severely disappointed." They are both somewhat right and somewhat wrong. They area obviously CAN grow a 150-class buck at maturity; just very infrequently, no matter how many bucks are allowed to mature.

 

[muddyboots]

I agree. I feel like I have a realistic shot at a 130 everytime I get in a tree. But we did alot to make it that way with trigger restraint the biggest tool.

 

[BSK]

I agree. I feel like I have a realistic shot at a 130 everytime I get in a tree. But we did alot to make it that way with trigger restraint the biggest tool.

If that's the case, then I bet either on the lease or very close to the lease some great habitat exists.

Just remember, that in many parts of TN, even with great trigger control, 130+ bucks are not a realistic expectation. And by that I mean the large majority of hunters will not experience a 130+ buck in weapon range each year. In some of those areas, the problem may be that the habitat doesn't grow many of these bucks, even at maturity. In other parts of these areas, it is hunter knowledge/dedication that is the problem.

 

[Hunter 257W]

I agree. I feel like I have a realistic shot at a 130 everytime I get in a tree. But we did alot to make it that way with trigger restraint the biggest tool.

If that's the case, then I bet either on the lease or very close to the lease some great habitat exists.

Just remember, that in many parts of TN, even with great trigger control, 130+ bucks are not a realistic expectation. And by that I mean the large majority of hunters will not experience a 130+ buck in weapon range each year. In some of those areas, the problem may be that the habitat doesn't grow many of these bucks, even at maturity. In other parts of these areas, it is hunter knowledge/dedication that is the problem.

One thing that mystifies me about my area is how there seems to be this huge disparity between the antler potential I should be seeing and what I do see. And I'm talking about year round trail camera "seeing" not my observations while hunting. (I'll admit that I'm not a great hunter - can't sit for hours and hours on end like some can. Not willing to even if I could.) One of the major positive - (at the same time also one of the major negatives) - around my farm is the sheer volume of agriculture. Deer have a LOT to eat. As a result their size is almost always impressive. Yearling bucks are commonly heavy and muscled. In contrast, a BIG % of the yearlings(1 1/2yrs old) are still spikes. I'd say half are spikes. The 3 1/2 year olds that are starting to survive are never these huge racked bucks a lot of places are seeing. 100 inches and 8 points seems to be the ceiling on what a buck can attain at that age. How can deer be so well fed and obviously so healthy and have such small racks while at the other end of the same county be so different?

 

[TheLBLman]

. . . . . around my farm is the sheer volume of agriculture. Deer have a LOT to eat. As a result their size is almost always impressive. Yearling bucks are commonly heavy and muscled. In contrast, a BIG % of the yearlings(1 1/2yrs old) are still spikes. I'd say half are spikes.

Believe it or not, having that many spikes is very likely an indication of a very healthy deer herd.

You probably have a lot of fawns getting pregnant (and this tends to happen more in January-February), thus a lot more "late-born" fawns being born (their momma being a late-bred doe). Late-born fawns are more commonly spikes because they don't get a start with the better food resources (which effect both their momma's milk supply and what they eat as a young deer).

Many very healthy female fawns will come into their first estrous at only 7-8 months of age. Unlike more average (less healthy) deer herds, with this exceptionally good health, you literally have fawns producing more fawns.

The 3 1/2 year olds that are starting to survive are never these huge racked bucks a lot of places are seeing. 100 inches and 8 points seems to be the ceiling on what a buck can attain at that age.

I suspect a couple significant factors:

1) Heavy antler high grading of your best yearling and 2 1/2-yr old bucks;
------- Almost none of your larger antlered young bucks are surviving to 3 1/2.

2) Lots of late-born fawns of fawns typically don't "catch up" to their comparative genetic potential until they reach 4 1/2 or older. But late born fawns are not genetically inferior, just getting a "later" start on their potential.

 

[scn]

And, as Wes said, those deer start out behind, and it can literally take them years to catch back up with the deer that are born in early spring.

It is very possible that a lot of the deer you are seeing are "tweeners" that are actually grouped in between two year classes.

 

[BSK]

Hunter 257W,

That's a perplexing problem. Wish I knew more about the area so I could comment.

 

[Hunter 257W]

Not sure about the High Grading, Wes. The "High Grades" for yearling bucks are scrubby 6 points at best. The typical yearling stud around here is a scrubby fork horn. The 2 1/2 year olds are usually "basket rack" (I hate that term) 6 points with a very few small 8 points. Not much to High Grade there. I just don't see anything like what so many others are getting on their trail cameras.

 

[BULL MOOSE]

Bring back antler restrictions to Natchez one more time.

 

[csi-tech]

BSK was retained by a hunting club that touches our old family farm in Humphreys County. Hopefully I will benefit from his wisdom and management practices. The Goofballs that have been hunting the farm are from East Tennessee and could care less. Their day will end and mine will begin.