3 bird limit???

[hbg1]

Pretty straight forward, more peckers means more peckers.

Not sure what you're suggesting. But I think you're assuming that all gobblers are actively breeding once dominance is established. That is not the case at all. Have you ever seen lone gobblers with no interest or hens during the season? I do routinely and those aren't breeding

How do you know a gobbler has no interest?

 

[Setterman]

How do you know a gobbler has no interest?

Observing turkeys for almost 30 years and seeing it every year

 

[hbg1]

Observing turkeys for almost 30 years and seeing it every year

A flock of 15 hens and three gobblers exist in a pocket more than 5 miles from the next pocket of turkeys. One of the gobblers is dominant. Which turkey breeds the 15 hens?

 

[Southern Sportsman]

A flock of 15 hens and three gobblers exist in a pocket more than 5 miles from the next pocket of turkeys. One of the gobblers is dominant. Which turkey breeds the 15 hens?

How big is this pocket of birds, geographically? If they are living in a small area, such that the hens tend to stay together as part of one flock, then I think research suggests that the dominant gobbler breeds most or all of them. If it's a bigger area, such that the three gobblers can spread out and establish separate leks, they may all establish enough dominance over their area. Then as hens shift around, they may breed with multiple gobblers (which I understand to be fairly common where enough gobblers exist).

Dominance affects more than just who gets first crack at the ladies. When a gobbler is subdominant and gets his ass kicked every time he challenges it, there is a testosterone-suppressing effect, which may leave him unable or uninterested when it comes to breeding. Those are the disinterested birds Setter described. That subdominant status isn't permanent, but if the dominant bird gets killed, it can take a while for the hierarchy (and therefore breeding) to get settled again. If all three of the gobblers in your hypothetical get killed before the hens are bred, that pocket of birds may not exist next year. But give them a couple extra weeks to breed before we start killing them, the flock may survive even if the gobblers don't. Thus, the season delay.

 

[megalomaniac]

Dominance affects more than just who gets first crack at the ladies. When a gobbler is subdominant and gets his ass kicked every time he challenges it, there is a testosterone-suppressing effect, which may leave him unable or uninterested when it comes to breeding. Those are the disinterested birds Setter described. That subdominant status isn't permanent, but if the dominant bird gets killed, it can take a while for the hierarchy (and therefore breeding) to get settled again. If all three of the gobblers in your hypothetical get killed before the hens are bred, that pocket of birds may not exist next year. But give them a couple extra weeks to breed before we start killing them, the flock may survive even if the gobblers don't. Thus, the season delay.

You described this effect perfectly!

Other things to consider. A tom that is injured or ill will also often become subdominant due to testosterone suppression and become a non breeder.

The first bird I roosted day before season opened here in MS I believe that is exactly what is going on. He just isn't breeding due to low testosterone levels, probably due to an injury or illness, more likely than losing a battle with another tom. He follows a hen around for a safety in numbers thing, but head stays pale and dusky. I actually passed him up weeks ago, as I strongly suspect once he heals from his injury and is feeling better, he will play the game. He finally gobbled once on the roost last week, so he's starting to feel better.

 

[Setterman]

A flock of 15 hens and three gobblers exist in a pocket more than 5 miles from the next pocket of turkeys. One of the gobblers is dominant. Which turkey breeds the 15 hens?

See southern post.

Also, in your scenario it is quite likely the other 2 birds are in fact subordinate and just hanging out with the flock they've been with and that the hens know they're not the dominant bird and won't breed with them even if they wanted to.

Every season I encounter gobblers who neither gobble nor strut and seem to be just existing not actively breeding

 

[Soft Talker]

A flock of 15 hens and three gobblers exist in a pocket more than 5 miles from the next pocket of turkeys. One of the gobblers is dominant. Which turkey breeds the 15 hens?

Here in East Tn, after have had started on them around the middle of the second week of March, the most dominant of those 3 will have already bred most of the older, mature Hens of the 13, by the first week of April. If at any time during that period, he gets killed, within prolly 2 days, the next in line takes over. As the older, bred Hens set up nesting, it will string the remaining flock out over a considerable area. Some Jennies will stick together and stay around their "settin" mothers, while others will venture to nesting sites of their own, thus spreading the flock thinner. This will allow the remaining Gobblers, to set up an area of their own, and divide up the willing Hens left. If the remaining 2 longbeards are killed during this period, the band of at least 2 or 3 Jakes that haven't already been mentioned, will take over breeding responsibilities into mid Summer. I'm guessing this scenario, as I have personally witnessed for 22 years now, plays out the same way all over the state of Tn.

 

[TheLBLman]

How big is this pocket of birds, geographically? If they are living in a small area, such that the hens tend to stay together as part of one flock, then I think research suggests that the dominant gobbler breeds most or all of them. Then as hens shift around, they may breed with multiple gobblers (which I understand to be fairly common where enough gobblers exist).

Perhaps every "pocket" is site specific, but I don't see many nesting hens wanting to nest anywhere close to another hen. Big pocket, small pocket, to what extent does it matter?

I see nesting hens dispersing (from a "pocket" or a "flock"), commonly to each nest hundreds of yards from the nearest other nester. Many or most of the hens remaining "flocked" together are actually young jennies, which aren't ready yet for their 1st breeding. We really need some Toms to survive into May to help breed them.

When the dominant Tom is "busy" with a particular hen, several hundred yards away, another comparably dominant Tom can simply come in from any direction. IMO, the more Toms in the greater general area, the better.

And the more breeding days those Toms have before one of us kills him, the better the odds for better nesting success of those hens.

 

[TheLBLman]

Also, with a small pocket area, put some hunting pressure on them, and that pocket of turkeys will commonly find a new pocket, often to your disadvantage.

 

[Iglow]

See southern post.

Also, in your scenario it is quite likely the other 2 birds are in fact subordinate and just hanging out with the flock they've been with and that the hens know they're not the dominant bird and won't breed with them even if they wanted to.

Every season I encounter gobblers who neither gobble nor strut and seem to be just existing not actively breeding

We've got a little flock hanging around, I posted a pic yesterday. There is about 8 hens, 2 longbeard strutters and 2 jakes. The longbeards tolerate the jakes as long as they stay a certain distance from the hens from what I saw yesterday, but if the jakes get too close one of the longbeards runs at them and scares them off, or from the small sample size I have that's what I saw. They wonder through about every 5 days then they are gone till they wonder back through.

Back to the predator killing thing, I'm all for it and have no problem doing it but my point on why it isn't the answer is that turkeys have to be able to make it on their own in the circumstances they have without a constant artificial crutch( the on going killing of predators). I just don't see how it's sustainable over a long period of time to keep turkey numbers up long term.

 

[hbg1]

See southern post.

Also, in your scenario it is quite likely the other 2 birds are in fact subordinate and just hanging out with the flock they've been with and that the hens know they're not the dominant bird and won't breed with them even if they wanted to.

Every season I encounter gobblers who neither gobble nor strut and seem to be just existing not actively breeding

In my hypothetical situation what if the dominant gobbler gets killed one month before breeding starts by a predator, who then does the breeding?

 

[Setterman]

In my hypothetical situation what if the dominant gobbler gets killed one month before breeding starts by a predator, who then does the breeding?

Highly unlikely dominance would've been established in this scenario

 

[Southern Sportsman]

In my hypothetical situation what if the dominant gobbler gets killed one month before breeding starts by a predator, who then does the breeding?

There may not be a "dominant" gobbler a month before breeding. During that time, gobblers are usually still grouped up and starting to work out the spring pecking order. If one of the three is killed then, he never establishes dominance over the other two because he died before they got that far. So one of the two survivors would likely prevail. Or it's certainly possible that the two survivors are equals—maybe even hatch-mates. Then they may both strut, gobble, and breed. Or one may get beat into submission and just meander around the flock all season.

 

[Soft Talker]

There may not be a "dominant" gobbler a month before breeding. During that time, gobblers are usually still grouped up and starting to work out the spring pecking order. If one of the three is killed then, he never establishes dominance over the other two because he died before they got that far. So one of the two survivors would likely prevail. Or it's certainly possible that the two survivors are equals—maybe even hatch-mates. Then they may both strut, gobble, and breed. Or one may get beat into submission and just meander around the flock all season.

So let me get this straight. Your stating Gobbler pecking order is not established till right before the beginning of Spring breeding. It would do some of you armchair biologists a great deal of good to spend some time in the Fall Turkey Hunting Woods. If you are going to talk about season structure, you had better know solid facts about Wild Turkey Biology, not just what you can quote from Chamberlain.

 

[Bgoodman30]

This is a good point, I've got a friend that lives in a subdivision very close to downtown nashville, turkeys have moved in to that area and are increasing every year. They have coons and yotes and every other night hunter there plus the usual raptors. I just asked him what he thought the hen to gobbler ratio is and he said close to 50/50. He sees them every day and he's probably the best turkey hunter I know and has been for 25 years so he knows turkeys. These turkeys are unhunted by people so that loss isn't a factor in their population.

A lot of the flocks I have observed this year there are more gobblers than hens. They get bred out early every year. They will be going bananas looking for the last hens by mid April and back to feeding by May.

 

[Bgoodman30]

We are getting more efficient at killing turkeys and would probably say so are the predators... I saw 2 turkey rib cages in AL the last 2 days. One was a fresh gobbler kill when he walked through an obvious pinch point to coyote/bobcat ambush.. Also had a gobbler get chased off by a coyote not long after he opened his mouth...

Although coyotes and bobcats are a problem I think coons and raptors are the number one issue. I think good brooding cover is paramount in turkey management.

 

[Rockhound]

But in the marginal areas with 1 or 2 toms and 4 or 5 hens with the next flock being 5 miles away, if the 1 or 2 toms are killed before mid April, then half the hens will go unbred that season.

This is the exact scenario I've been dealing with for since 2007, when ours died off.

 

[hbg1]

Highly unlikely dominance would've been established in this scenario

Do the hens then go unbred?

 

[ROVERBOY]

Do the hens then go unbred?

I would imagine younger or subordinate birds would take care of things, if a more dominant bird was killed.

 

[prstide]

How big is this pocket of birds, geographically? If they are living in a small area, such that the hens tend to stay together as part of one flock, then I think research suggests that the dominant gobbler breeds most or all of them. If it's a bigger area, such that the three gobblers can spread out and establish separate leks, they may all establish enough dominance over their area. Then as hens shift around, they may breed with multiple gobblers (which I understand to be fairly common where enough gobblers exist).

Dominance affects more than just who gets first crack at the ladies. When a gobbler is subdominant and gets his ass kicked every time he challenges it, there is a testosterone-suppressing effect, which may leave him unable or uninterested when it comes to breeding. Those are the disinterested birds Setter described. That subdominant status isn't permanent, but if the dominant bird gets killed, it can take a while for the hierarchy (and therefore breeding) to get settled again. If all three of the gobblers in your hypothetical get killed before the hens are bred, that pocket of birds may not exist next year. But give them a couple extra weeks to breed before we start killing them, the flock may survive even if the gobblers don't. Thus, the season delay.

You nailed it.