I have also only bagged 2 birds last year, I practice what I preach too
3 bird limit?
- Thread starter Boll Weevil
- Start date
Setterman
Well-Known Member
Y'all still don't get it. Killing birds has been made so easy with the rise of decoys. Especially early and when the majority of people hunt along with birds being predictable.
look at alabama and their curve, it immediately shot downwards after legalizing decoys.
if you want improvements remove the single biggest crutch. Make googans actually hunt, and it would save 15,000 or more birds each season.
this will never happen because too many hunters want it easy
look at alabama and their curve, it immediately shot downwards after legalizing decoys.
if you want improvements remove the single biggest crutch. Make googans actually hunt, and it would save 15,000 or more birds each season.
this will never happen because too many hunters want it easy
It will only happen when there's so few birds left that the only places to hunt them will the mountains here in east TN. No need for decoys and 80 yard turkey guns there. Seeing a track will be special again. Be just like old times sadly.
We have this discussion every single year. Just because a man shoots TSS doesn't mean he is shooting turkey at 50 , 60 , 70 yards. I use it and have yet to shoot over 35 yards at a turkey there are always going to be unethical people in everything you do and people shoot the ridiculous distances with lead also but please do not think all of us are in that category . I want the best possible pattern for a clean ethical kill for my son and I . I am using a 20 and 410 so the TSS is what I feel is best. Now to the topic, Let's just look at how bad the TN turkey hunting has gotten. Now I know in some areas of the state it has dropped , I believe it when guys on here that have hunted for years say that. Also believe this it is better in some parts of our state then it has ever been . Let's look at the numbers, since 2000 Tn has killed 30,000 or more Turkey except 2018 in which it was just below. Ky kill also dropped in 2018 , Ky is a two bird state and dropped by 18 percent that year from 2017( Game and Fish article). Last year we set a state record in Tn of over 40,000 birds killed . I realize covid had an impact on that. Missouri another state that is always been brought up dropped by thousands of kills over the years ,.I have cited the article twice that gave the numbers . My point is if these states do everything correctly ( later start dates , limits) why the drop in kills? If Tn does it all wrong why have we remained steady? Go over to the Alabama site and they are having the same discussion and are livid at the thought of a later start date and a 3 bird limit as the limit is 5. Minnesota starts April 14, so most on here believe we should start at the same time as Minnesota? I disagree but would be more than willing to say juvenile is the first Saturday in April with the season starting the next Saturday if that was proven to help poult production as that is the key. Where did the late start date theory come from? I assume this is still just a theory? LBL would probably prove it wrong . They have the later start date and have had it for years and it was just pointed out that it has gotten worse In an above post, So why fool with that or believe it? LBL is the model in this state for a later date and it has done that since I can remember but it's gotten worse? They have also had a two bird limit and a two week season. The other 3 hunts are quota hunts that last two days. Again you need to look no further than LBL to see that this theory probably isn't accurate. If it was , no way it would have gotten to the point of a 1 bird limit at LBL? They reduced the limit by 1 ( that does not bother me at all)and no bonus birds which the bonus bird deal really doesn't make any sense at all as those are controlled hunts on specific pieces of property. In my opinion I believe that banning gobbler decoys , fans and not shooting jakes or hens would do more than a later start date or anything that has been done so far. Also trap the heck out of the nest predators! Habitat improvement where possible for nesting! Just one man's opinion , I am sure it's wrong!
^^^ No way to manage by kill/harvest data alone, or use it as any kind of reliable indicator, without knowing hunter effort (hours afield) during these same time periods. My absolute favorite thing Missouri does religiously is their brood survey (poults per hen ration aka PHR) and they publish it for all turkey hunters to read and understand. They always communicate the risk of low PHR and what the future will likely hold if a low PHR becomes status quo. They never try to directly or indirectly paint a false sense of security to the hunters about their fragile resource. They tell the hunters about last few years' hatches and how that'll likely play into one's success afield. It is very obvious to me they manage their resource for the future benefit of their resource, and hunter satisfaction and profit just fall where they may. I know a lot of guys who once hunted MO, but choose not to these days. Why? They tell me $230 is too steep for two birds and they preferred the years when you heard 10-15 a morning, over the present of 3-6 a morning. This is residents and non-residents alike. I'll take 1-3 morning in a pure hardwoods habitat and be happy as a lark.
^^^ MO DNR brood survey I mentioned. They stay in touch with the only reliable indicator of what the future holds.
mdc.mo.gov
MDC brood survey shows slight improvement in turkey production
2020 brought better turkey production to north Missouri while southwest turkey production remains poor.
That is a good deal Andy, Does Tn do brood surveys? I assumed they did. Again that is the key and I believe predators and Habitat loss have made a huge difference for poults. I agree with you also on the man hours and people. I just put up the numbers because that is all we have to go by that I know of. Alabama WMAs have a card that you fill out and turn in before hunting and check out when done so they can track how many hours you hunt and if you harvest a bird . They have kiosks throughout each wma and it's not a hassle at all but I think some don't like it. Just a way to keep up with man hours per harvest. My local WMA used to make you sign in and out back in the day with times but quit , it was probably due to lack of man power as they did it at the checking station. The kiosk requires no manpower except to pick the cards up at some point. Of course that only tracks Wma but would be something interesting to see for ours here in TN.
I agree, tell me about the poults... On the land I hunt in MS I have friends and family that live on it, I have ask them often enough about poults that they got to where they just text me whenever they see poults letting me know how many with how many hens and what size.
While my "survey" isn't very scientific it has definitely correlated to birds I see from season to season.
I can't prove it but I strongly believe aflatoxin is what killed off the flocks in my area. I would see flocks of 20-30 toms while deer hunting and even listened to them all gobble for 30 minutes Thanksgiving morning, flocks of hens were 100+. That spring I heard a total of two birds gobble on the roost and called in a jake for a kid and that was it. Rarely even saw a hen. From thanksgiving to April we lost practically the whole turkey population.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
If you were feeding corn post-deer-season, good chance aflatoxin wiped out your local turkey population.
Having seen that happen is why I stopped feeding corn late winter.
Just too much risk of feeding doing more harm than good,
as aflatoxin is very deadly to birds, including quail & turkey.
I have zero doubt that increased aflatoxin poisoning is one of the many factors that has led to our statewide turkey decline. More & more people have been "feeding" the aflatoxin-infected "deer corn" they buy at Wal-mart. By the way, it's illegal for them to even sell the stuff in Texas, so other states (where illegal) dump their infected corn supplies in Tennessee.
To be clear, I've never fed corn.
Georgia is proposing some pretty strict changes in response. A majority of hunters there have asked for a 2 bird limit. GA DNR is also floating the ideas of no more than 1 in the first 2 weeks, delaying ALL WMA and WMA quota hunt seasons until Mid April, etc. I believe we will see a drastically different turkey season for those that like to travel and hunt pretty soon. I hate it but certainly want to see this negative trend reversed.
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megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
I think it's too late, the cats out of the bag. There is an entire generation of hunters who have been taught you have to use a decoy to be able to kill a turkey. Even if you made decoys illegal, a significant number of those depending on them would still continue to use them illegally. Just like those who continue to hunt over corn/ bait.
The single best way for TWRA to stop the bleeding is delay season opener and protect jakes.
megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
I really like the idea of delaying WMA seasons by a couple weeks like what Alabama did a couple years ago. Those are the most pressured birds, and the most vulnerable to overharvest early. It will be interesting to see what if any difference it makes in their ongoing study on those with a later opening date vs those with the traditional start date.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I don't know of any single thing a state or WMA could do that would be better than this (for the purpose of stabilizing or increasing turkey populations).
I wish TN would do it statewide. Open the season mid-April, and all the other issues, like limits, decoys, long-range guns, short-range reaping, they all become of less relevance.
If the season were to open 2 weeks later, perhaps would make some sense (especially for those hunting the East TN mountainous areas) to add 1 week on the back-end. Season would be 1 week shorter, but the hens would get bred, be sitting on fertile eggs instead of many maybe not because our season opens so early.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
Remember, any law is only as good as its enforcement.
Closed season covers everything, and is relatively easy to enforce compared to technical issues DURING an open season.
LBL Man, You have told us that LBL has gotten worse and they do delay the season and have done so for years . So why do you believe that the move will help at other places? They also have had a two bird limit for as long as I remember and now had to drop to a 1 bird limit . Again I am just curious as to why you think the delay would help having give us this information firsthand that it does not work at LBL? I hate social media and typing things out so I do not want you to take it wrong, I am just curious about your reasoning having seen the later season first hand not working ?
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
I can only imagine how much worse the turkey situation might be at LBL if LBL had the same opening date, and 4-bird limit like Tennessee "statewide" has had the past many years. By comparison, the turkey hunting (and the turkey population) has typically been much better under Kentucky's "statewide" later opening date and 2-bird limit.
In essence, LBL has been managing the turkey's more like the KDFWR "statewide" model than the TWRA "statewide" model.
Even large WMA's can be very limited as to just what they can and cannot do regarding habitat manipulation (in large part due to politics). The challenges of maintaining a thriving turkey population may be little different at LBL than is experienced by many other WMA's in TN, most of which have poorer turkey hunting than private lands in their respective counties.
You do what you can, and just because you can't change the weather doesn't mean you shouldn't take what reasonable steps you can to improve the outcome.
At issue becomes just what is "reasonable" and what is not.
Truth is, I believe the turkey situation would only be much worse at LBL had there not been a later season opening (and a 2-bird limit). That limit is only now going to one this coming season (it has been 2). Also, despite the later opening date, LBL may have nonetheless been receiving more turkey hunting pressure than the average private property "statewide" in TN. That has traditionally been in part due to LBL offering "bonus" birds, and heavily attracting the most avid turkey hunters after they had already filled their limits elsewhere.
In fact, LBL has traditionally drawn some highly accomplished turkey hunters, and many will tell you the LBL birds are some of the hardest birds to successfully kill they've ever hunted. IMO, part of the hunting difficulty may actually be more about many hunters just being more accustomed to hunting more typical private-property "farms" rather than the big "public" woods at LBL, where you will often have multiple other hunters closing in on the same bird you hear gobbling.
As an aside, shame as it is, LBL has much less habitat diversity than most of Tennessee's county-wide habitats. It has been better in times past, when politics were less a controlling factor. I also suspect LBL has relatively more turkey-killing predators now, which include a growing population of raptors which have evolved more into specifically hunting turkeys. Just one more of those things we can do absolutely nothing about.
Add to this the rather recent influx of feral pigs now destroying the habitat. LBL is trying to get the pigs under control, but nothing can be done about the hawks, owls, and eagles evolving into better turkey hunters (as are the bobcats & coyotes).
Note how often people are now seeing bobcats during daylight. IMO, this is mainly because of their evolution in hunting turkeys. We're also seeing more "inland" bald eagles, specifically hunting turkeys, whereas they HAD been more focused on fish and carrion closer to and in the water (such as wounded & dead waterfowl).
Considering EVERYTHING going against turkeys' survival, it makes even more sense to do what little we easily can do to help, i.e. a little later season opening, a lower bag limit? Doesn't seem to be a whole lot more, within reason, we can do?
In essence, LBL has been managing the turkey's more like the KDFWR "statewide" model than the TWRA "statewide" model.
As also said, most of the factors effecting ongoing turkey populations are beyond our control, and largely include weather, rainfall, and habitat.
Even large WMA's can be very limited as to just what they can and cannot do regarding habitat manipulation (in large part due to politics). The challenges of maintaining a thriving turkey population may be little different at LBL than is experienced by many other WMA's in TN, most of which have poorer turkey hunting than private lands in their respective counties.
You do what you can, and just because you can't change the weather doesn't mean you shouldn't take what reasonable steps you can to improve the outcome.
At issue becomes just what is "reasonable" and what is not.
Truth is, I believe the turkey situation would only be much worse at LBL had there not been a later season opening (and a 2-bird limit). That limit is only now going to one this coming season (it has been 2). Also, despite the later opening date, LBL may have nonetheless been receiving more turkey hunting pressure than the average private property "statewide" in TN. That has traditionally been in part due to LBL offering "bonus" birds, and heavily attracting the most avid turkey hunters after they had already filled their limits elsewhere.
In fact, LBL has traditionally drawn some highly accomplished turkey hunters, and many will tell you the LBL birds are some of the hardest birds to successfully kill they've ever hunted. IMO, part of the hunting difficulty may actually be more about many hunters just being more accustomed to hunting more typical private-property "farms" rather than the big "public" woods at LBL, where you will often have multiple other hunters closing in on the same bird you hear gobbling.
As an aside, shame as it is, LBL has much less habitat diversity than most of Tennessee's county-wide habitats. It has been better in times past, when politics were less a controlling factor. I also suspect LBL has relatively more turkey-killing predators now, which include a growing population of raptors which have evolved more into specifically hunting turkeys. Just one more of those things we can do absolutely nothing about.
Add to this the rather recent influx of feral pigs now destroying the habitat. LBL is trying to get the pigs under control, but nothing can be done about the hawks, owls, and eagles evolving into better turkey hunters (as are the bobcats & coyotes).
Note how often people are now seeing bobcats during daylight. IMO, this is mainly because of their evolution in hunting turkeys. We're also seeing more "inland" bald eagles, specifically hunting turkeys, whereas they HAD been more focused on fish and carrion closer to and in the water (such as wounded & dead waterfowl).
Considering EVERYTHING going against turkeys' survival, it makes even more sense to do what little we easily can do to help, i.e. a little later season opening, a lower bag limit? Doesn't seem to be a whole lot more, within reason, we can do?
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megalomaniac
Well-Known Member
This is actually my greatest fear... that game agencies do EVERYTHING in their power regarding season dates, limits, age/ sex harvests and turkeys CONTINUE to decline because of all the other factors going against them.
The only good flip side of that is there will be fewer people turkey hunting in the woods.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
But, the decline is just worse and sooner if the agencies procrastinate, behave more reactively than proactively?
