I want no part of these cats on our land. Wild Hogs are bad enough, definitely do not want these critters taking our game...
Tennessee Cougar Confirmation?
- Thread starter Land Between the Lakes
- Start date
Tuckbass
Well-Known Member
In my time spent in CA I had plenty chances to make observations on the effects of Mountain lions in an area. I'm personally not a fan of them when they are controlled (or protected)as they are in CA. In fact, one of the reasons I moved back to TN was to not have to worry about them any longer as long as their livelihood is held above my own. Here are some opinions I have formed based on my experiences with the lions (strictly in CA).....
1. I understand that these big cats roamed here freely once before. That was a different time and place. All the wildlife roamed a lot more freely back then. Now the entire ecosystem has been permanently changed. I believe they have a place today, I'm just not sure how to allow them to re-introduce without having a system in place to control them. I think we need to allow them to be killed to keep their numbers in check or at least off of private property if you don't want them around your livestock or family.
2.There is a very slim chance any of us will ever put eyes on one here or even for those in CA where they thrive and are protected beyond your imagination, The CA DFG has been known to launch a full scale murder investigation when rumors of a lion kill start floating around.
3. If they are allowed to re-populate in TN, you will have an opinion about them as it will soon be a regular topic of conversation. In CA where they are protected, they have no fear of humans or human contact at all. Humans never harm them, so they are not intimidated by them. (those of us who have yard deer know what this is like, if you don't harass the deer they will come right up to your hand, only difference is that deer don't aren't carnivores). We used to have plenty of deer hang out at our farm in CA. right up by our house, around the apple trees etc. Soon they stopped showing up, we assumed with hunting season coming on, that was the reason. Wrong. Trail cams soon started getting pictures of a lion all over the farm. We found footprints within 20' of our house even! I will admit that they never harmed our horses or other animals. But the deer didn't come back until the lion moved on and it was enough that my kids weren't allowed to play outside, feed the horses, see the chickens, etc. without a grown up in very close proximity. The lion is a very intimidating animal to say the least, knowing it is the ultimate apex predator. It lives in the shadows and if it weren't for trail cameras I wouldn't even have known the danger. As long as they fear humans, I don't see a real problem with it. Let people scare them off or shoot them if they see fit on their own property. That at least will ensure safety concerns. Allow archery hunters to carry sidearms in the woods. Although against the law in CA, nearly every bow hunter I knew always carried a pistol for fear of mountain lion or bear encounters. Bears mostly run for fear of humans as they are hunted though, so not as much of a concern there. Education is the ultimate resource for reintroducing these predators.
4.Our deer herd is fine and in no need of reducing the overall numbers, so it would be hard pressed to say that we need them re-introduced for nature to take its course. Although there is a plenty large enough herd, at least in some places for them to co-exist in areas of TN. Especially in places where no hunting is allowed to reduce herd numbers. Some of the larger parks come to mind. But be careful of this if they are protected beyond these boundaries. As numbers increase and herds decrease, they will naturally explore outlying areas. It can and will happen, thus the need to allow private property owners to control the threat as they see fit.
5. If they are allowed to re-populate in TN again as it appears they already are, we will never be rid of them again. So, make sure this is what is best, because its kind of a permanent thing.
6. We used the rule of x5 in CA. if you got a picture of one on a camera, we estimated there were at least 5 in the nearby area (say 5-7 square miles). If someone put eyes on one in the daylight, then we used the x10 rule. in the same area. I can tell you in areas that we used x10, we rarely if ever saw deer in those areas and eventually we just moved on to other areas or gave up if it was a private farm. In areas where we just had camera pictures, we would still see some deer, but rarely would we actually harvest one. Having said that, harvesting a deer in CA is a real feat period for numerous reasons. I don't place all the blame on the lions. I do place the blame on the CA DFG for not creating rules that make sense to control and improve the overall wildlife in the state. I pray that TN will do all things necessary to prevent our state from falling prey to the outside influences that CA has. CA used to be an amazing place to enjoy the outdoors. It's hard to even imagine that now out there. If you see a deer at all even 500 yards away while driving down the road its worth calling your buddies about.
7. The lions eat way more than you think. PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH ON THIS. At a time when we knew there was a lion on our farm we found 3 kills in one week on ours and adjacent farms. They have killed deer in broad daylight within 75 yards of a friends house 3 times in the last 2 years! Some things to consider....these cats are not herd lions like you have in Africa. Our cats are solitary animals for the most part except in times of breeding or raising the young. So as one kills a deer, if the weather is cold enough to preserve the meat for 3-4 days it will consume the all of the usable parts of the animal before spoilage occurs. However in the other 8-9 months of the year a lion will kill a deer as soon as the other spoils or is near spoiling. During the summer months it is not uncommon for them to kill a deer every other day or even every day in some cases. Now I'm no wildlife biologist, but based on all the research I've seen, a conservative estimate would attribute around 100 or more deer kills a year to every single mountain lion, and that number probably could be closer to 120+ with warmer weather patterns we have seen recently. ( there goes the 2 buck limit help on the herd). By those numbers, simple math tells us that if we have only 100 mountain lions living in our state, they would account for killing over 10,000 deer a year! Why are they traveling such great distances to show up here anyway? Ask yourself that question. Probably 2 reasons far above the rest. 1.increased populations and territory disputes among the animals. (remember, theses are very solitary and territorial animals) 2. lack of caring capacity elsewhere. Both of these reasons kind of work as one in the same. The more food and safe cover an area has, then the smaller a territorial range will be that a lion will need to control. Obviously the ranges will overlap as most territorial animals do. Mostly though I think if an animal has everything it needs, it wont leave unless made to do so. What are we going to do different than other state agencies to not let this happen here?
***My own Opinion / Conclusion*** The north american Cougar/Panther/Mountain Lion is a truly amazing animal. I wouldn't want to imagine such a creature not having a place on this earth. In a perfect world I would love to see them introduced back into certain areas of their natural habitat and region. (Even in TN) My fears are that it wouldn't/won't be done in a way that will allow for people to keep them from interfering with their own quality of life. I don't want them if I am not allowed to shoot them if they come onto my property. I don't want to have an ounce of fear of my children playing in the yard or if I stay until dark during archery season ( any number of fears can be inserted here) if I know there are cougars in the area and I can't carry a side arm. Controlling the numbers of the Cats is a huge concern. Once introduced, I fear that like in other states it will only be the start of a new problem because measures weren't put in place to control the numbers soon enough. Re-location is only a bandaid to be used while numbers are low and enough area allows for such things. At some very hard to determine point in time after re-introduction, there will be a very necessary need to kill animals which populate sensitive or undesirable locations. Usually this doesn't happen until there is a bigger problem created first. Also there is a need to mention that Lions are very hard to control to begin with due to their own secluded nature. You could have one kill several head of cattle every so often and never be able to eradicate the problem cat without professional help. There are many places in states where deer and elk once flourished until cougars, lions, and wolves were "relocated" to these areas over and over in spite of the caring capacity reduction after each relocation and reproduction occuring. These areas covering 100's of thousands of acres now rarely will see a deer or elk in places that had them previously. As our population increases and we further reduce the acres of natural habitat for our wildlife, re-introducing an APEX Predator to an already declining sustainable deer herd size does not come without challenges and concerns. The biggest concern I have is not with the lions living here, but rather that the people in charge of controlling the environment surrounding situation will not accept the complete responsibility and complexity of doing so in the right way.Even then, if they do a remarkable job even better than has been done prior by other state agencies; will the next person or administration in charge continue with the same sense of responsibility? That's the question we don't have the answer to. I do have an opinion based on the way things seem to be done now. The overall lack of accountability, and need for notoriety our society shows leaves me with more feelings of concern rather than support. I hope I am wrong and we are able to have a responsible reintroduction of the lion to our region.
Considering all of these things, I'm good with having them around as long as I don't have to let them walk in my back yard or worry about my own quality of life. It may be a bit selfish, but I like the way things are here now, much like when I grew up here. When I was 7,8,9,10 etc., my friends and I would always be outside enjoying the outdoors. We didn't have mom and dad looking over our shoulder, we were encouraged to get out and explore and be independent. I don't want to lose that anymore than we already have for my children and one day (Lord willing)grand-kids. So, take em or leave em, but if we are gonna have them, please do it in a way to protect our current ways of life and to prevent it from becoming a problem later.
This is a very sensitive "Risk versus Reward" situation which must be carefully considered due to its long lasting side effects.
The fact is that they have been here in small numbers for years. We are seeing them more now than ever. The numbers will continue to grow regardless at this point so we collectively had better come up with a way to positively remain in control of the situation that our residents are aware of. We can't just have people shooting them out of fear if they are 300 yards away minding their business and leaving them to rot. We need to be educating our youth and adults about the lions. I understand fearing something you are not educated about. I don't fault someone for shooting one out of fear. If we begin to educate now, it is possible that we will be able to sustain a healthy number of the cats without affecting our own quality of life we enjoy today.
1. I understand that these big cats roamed here freely once before. That was a different time and place. All the wildlife roamed a lot more freely back then. Now the entire ecosystem has been permanently changed. I believe they have a place today, I'm just not sure how to allow them to re-introduce without having a system in place to control them. I think we need to allow them to be killed to keep their numbers in check or at least off of private property if you don't want them around your livestock or family.
2.There is a very slim chance any of us will ever put eyes on one here or even for those in CA where they thrive and are protected beyond your imagination, The CA DFG has been known to launch a full scale murder investigation when rumors of a lion kill start floating around.
3. If they are allowed to re-populate in TN, you will have an opinion about them as it will soon be a regular topic of conversation. In CA where they are protected, they have no fear of humans or human contact at all. Humans never harm them, so they are not intimidated by them. (those of us who have yard deer know what this is like, if you don't harass the deer they will come right up to your hand, only difference is that deer don't aren't carnivores). We used to have plenty of deer hang out at our farm in CA. right up by our house, around the apple trees etc. Soon they stopped showing up, we assumed with hunting season coming on, that was the reason. Wrong. Trail cams soon started getting pictures of a lion all over the farm. We found footprints within 20' of our house even! I will admit that they never harmed our horses or other animals. But the deer didn't come back until the lion moved on and it was enough that my kids weren't allowed to play outside, feed the horses, see the chickens, etc. without a grown up in very close proximity. The lion is a very intimidating animal to say the least, knowing it is the ultimate apex predator. It lives in the shadows and if it weren't for trail cameras I wouldn't even have known the danger. As long as they fear humans, I don't see a real problem with it. Let people scare them off or shoot them if they see fit on their own property. That at least will ensure safety concerns. Allow archery hunters to carry sidearms in the woods. Although against the law in CA, nearly every bow hunter I knew always carried a pistol for fear of mountain lion or bear encounters. Bears mostly run for fear of humans as they are hunted though, so not as much of a concern there. Education is the ultimate resource for reintroducing these predators.
4.Our deer herd is fine and in no need of reducing the overall numbers, so it would be hard pressed to say that we need them re-introduced for nature to take its course. Although there is a plenty large enough herd, at least in some places for them to co-exist in areas of TN. Especially in places where no hunting is allowed to reduce herd numbers. Some of the larger parks come to mind. But be careful of this if they are protected beyond these boundaries. As numbers increase and herds decrease, they will naturally explore outlying areas. It can and will happen, thus the need to allow private property owners to control the threat as they see fit.
5. If they are allowed to re-populate in TN again as it appears they already are, we will never be rid of them again. So, make sure this is what is best, because its kind of a permanent thing.
6. We used the rule of x5 in CA. if you got a picture of one on a camera, we estimated there were at least 5 in the nearby area (say 5-7 square miles). If someone put eyes on one in the daylight, then we used the x10 rule. in the same area. I can tell you in areas that we used x10, we rarely if ever saw deer in those areas and eventually we just moved on to other areas or gave up if it was a private farm. In areas where we just had camera pictures, we would still see some deer, but rarely would we actually harvest one. Having said that, harvesting a deer in CA is a real feat period for numerous reasons. I don't place all the blame on the lions. I do place the blame on the CA DFG for not creating rules that make sense to control and improve the overall wildlife in the state. I pray that TN will do all things necessary to prevent our state from falling prey to the outside influences that CA has. CA used to be an amazing place to enjoy the outdoors. It's hard to even imagine that now out there. If you see a deer at all even 500 yards away while driving down the road its worth calling your buddies about.
7. The lions eat way more than you think. PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH ON THIS. At a time when we knew there was a lion on our farm we found 3 kills in one week on ours and adjacent farms. They have killed deer in broad daylight within 75 yards of a friends house 3 times in the last 2 years! Some things to consider....these cats are not herd lions like you have in Africa. Our cats are solitary animals for the most part except in times of breeding or raising the young. So as one kills a deer, if the weather is cold enough to preserve the meat for 3-4 days it will consume the all of the usable parts of the animal before spoilage occurs. However in the other 8-9 months of the year a lion will kill a deer as soon as the other spoils or is near spoiling. During the summer months it is not uncommon for them to kill a deer every other day or even every day in some cases. Now I'm no wildlife biologist, but based on all the research I've seen, a conservative estimate would attribute around 100 or more deer kills a year to every single mountain lion, and that number probably could be closer to 120+ with warmer weather patterns we have seen recently. ( there goes the 2 buck limit help on the herd). By those numbers, simple math tells us that if we have only 100 mountain lions living in our state, they would account for killing over 10,000 deer a year! Why are they traveling such great distances to show up here anyway? Ask yourself that question. Probably 2 reasons far above the rest. 1.increased populations and territory disputes among the animals. (remember, theses are very solitary and territorial animals) 2. lack of caring capacity elsewhere. Both of these reasons kind of work as one in the same. The more food and safe cover an area has, then the smaller a territorial range will be that a lion will need to control. Obviously the ranges will overlap as most territorial animals do. Mostly though I think if an animal has everything it needs, it wont leave unless made to do so. What are we going to do different than other state agencies to not let this happen here?
***My own Opinion / Conclusion*** The north american Cougar/Panther/Mountain Lion is a truly amazing animal. I wouldn't want to imagine such a creature not having a place on this earth. In a perfect world I would love to see them introduced back into certain areas of their natural habitat and region. (Even in TN) My fears are that it wouldn't/won't be done in a way that will allow for people to keep them from interfering with their own quality of life. I don't want them if I am not allowed to shoot them if they come onto my property. I don't want to have an ounce of fear of my children playing in the yard or if I stay until dark during archery season ( any number of fears can be inserted here) if I know there are cougars in the area and I can't carry a side arm. Controlling the numbers of the Cats is a huge concern. Once introduced, I fear that like in other states it will only be the start of a new problem because measures weren't put in place to control the numbers soon enough. Re-location is only a bandaid to be used while numbers are low and enough area allows for such things. At some very hard to determine point in time after re-introduction, there will be a very necessary need to kill animals which populate sensitive or undesirable locations. Usually this doesn't happen until there is a bigger problem created first. Also there is a need to mention that Lions are very hard to control to begin with due to their own secluded nature. You could have one kill several head of cattle every so often and never be able to eradicate the problem cat without professional help. There are many places in states where deer and elk once flourished until cougars, lions, and wolves were "relocated" to these areas over and over in spite of the caring capacity reduction after each relocation and reproduction occuring. These areas covering 100's of thousands of acres now rarely will see a deer or elk in places that had them previously. As our population increases and we further reduce the acres of natural habitat for our wildlife, re-introducing an APEX Predator to an already declining sustainable deer herd size does not come without challenges and concerns. The biggest concern I have is not with the lions living here, but rather that the people in charge of controlling the environment surrounding situation will not accept the complete responsibility and complexity of doing so in the right way.Even then, if they do a remarkable job even better than has been done prior by other state agencies; will the next person or administration in charge continue with the same sense of responsibility? That's the question we don't have the answer to. I do have an opinion based on the way things seem to be done now. The overall lack of accountability, and need for notoriety our society shows leaves me with more feelings of concern rather than support. I hope I am wrong and we are able to have a responsible reintroduction of the lion to our region.
Considering all of these things, I'm good with having them around as long as I don't have to let them walk in my back yard or worry about my own quality of life. It may be a bit selfish, but I like the way things are here now, much like when I grew up here. When I was 7,8,9,10 etc., my friends and I would always be outside enjoying the outdoors. We didn't have mom and dad looking over our shoulder, we were encouraged to get out and explore and be independent. I don't want to lose that anymore than we already have for my children and one day (Lord willing)grand-kids. So, take em or leave em, but if we are gonna have them, please do it in a way to protect our current ways of life and to prevent it from becoming a problem later.
This is a very sensitive "Risk versus Reward" situation which must be carefully considered due to its long lasting side effects.
The fact is that they have been here in small numbers for years. We are seeing them more now than ever. The numbers will continue to grow regardless at this point so we collectively had better come up with a way to positively remain in control of the situation that our residents are aware of. We can't just have people shooting them out of fear if they are 300 yards away minding their business and leaving them to rot. We need to be educating our youth and adults about the lions. I understand fearing something you are not educated about. I don't fault someone for shooting one out of fear. If we begin to educate now, it is possible that we will be able to sustain a healthy number of the cats without affecting our own quality of life we enjoy today.
If they did get plentiful here i would shoot everyone of them i seen whether it was legal or not. I don't want them on my property or around it.
Orion":al5e2e9a said:
Its cool as long as they don't go over the two buck limit.
kentuckylakebuck
Well-Known Member
Well, guess that depends on how you define "a few deer".TheLBLman":l9uoo2c1 said:
I believe an adult male cougar needs the equivalent of about 1 deer weekly?
That would work out to 52 deer a year.
thats less than some farmers kill in one summer night!
