Southern TN

[deerfever]

Unlike a bunch of folks, me and many other biologists don't fully bite into Chamberlain's theory. Key word being THEORY. This is not science based evidence he is spouting and many states are hopping on this popular bandwagon of changing seasons and taking away opportunity. Opportunity that will very likely not be given back. If pushing back season helped so much, Arkansas should be in much better shape than it is now! I've hunted MO for 15 years and the region I spend the most time in has half or maybe even less than half of the birds it did just 5 years ago. It's a function of mother nature, habitat, and the natural ups and downs of turkey populations. And on this topic, reducing the limit by a bird will have little to no noticeable effect on overall turkey numbers. More of a liberal approach to hunting: "You can't kill another bird to save one for this less experienced hunter, everyone deserves a turkey!"

One more thing. The delayed opener in the Middle TN counties happened to fall on a season where there are a good many 2 year olds. I track harvest data and the Jake harvests for 2020 in some of these counties was well above the 5 year running average. From this alone I knew 2021 would be better in a certain area. But people will jump the gun and try to contribute the good aeason/harvest to the later opener when it fact the 2019 hatch is the cause, not season changes. We saw the same thing last year in some southeastern states when folks tried blaming COVID for high harvests and ignored the fact there were more 2 year olds on the landscape in many areas than there had been in quiet a while. Even Chamberlain ignored this fact when he published that white paper of COVID's impacts on turkey.

I could go on, but I think you can see where I stand from the above.

Thank you! I have tried my best to point some of things out over the years and even used LBL ( later start date for years)as an example several times to show that the Chamberlain theory is simply that. It seems like if you don't buy in you are considered anti turkey. The counties you guys were in are some of the top in the state in kills( last season) even though they are being studied for turkey decline, (some are not in the top) Missouri actually killed its highest number of birds in 2004 60,744 but harvest dropped around 25,000 birds by I believe 2018 35,784. They follow every Chamberlain playbook move there is , even one turkey the first week, hunting stops mid day. In the article I read the biologist got into hatch#, predators , poult survival. I believe he even mentioned leveling off effect but he never said I think we need to move our dates back even more. If your goal is to save male dominant turkey it's my opinion banning decoys and fans for a while will make that happen if it's necessary for breeding plus it keeps people safe on public. Saturday evening I seen a guy slipping through the woods with a fan in one hand across his chest spread out and two gobbler decoy heads sticking out of each side of his vest. I very quickly let him I know I was there and leaving, he had approached from another road. My point is that Tn is studying the situation before they just start moving dates and doing things that are simply a theory, that's the right thing to do. As you mentioned other states are drinking the kool aid without any proof but continue to have issues. Harvest numbers have remained steady in Tn since 2000 at around 30,000 . I have been told that harvest numbers are irrelevant but you just pointed out a good fact about tracking jake harvest . I think we all need to realize that we can have varying opinions but it doesn't mean we aren't for turkey if we don't jump in the boat with Chamberlain just yet,! Go check out the guys in Alabama thoughts on the guy! He doesn't seem to be a fan favorite at all. I am positive he knows more than me but I just don't buy that Tn needs to open with Indiana and Minnesota. If the study proves me wrong so be it and move the state back a week ( meet in the middle). I have seen hens alone , and nesting since the first week in April. Turkey are in places I never dreamed I would hear or see them. I know other areas are not so fortunate but at least our state is trying to figure it out and studying the situation to see what should be done and if theory is correct before moving everyone in that direction and as you pointed out taking opportunity from all that would never be gotten back. Prime example bonus birds? These were birds that were on specific tracts of land with a quota system. Can anyone explain to me how taking that bird away from a guy drawn on a hunt that usually stops at noon for two , three days has an impact on our statewide turkey population? I questioned it but no one can seem to explain the significance except to say that is how other states do it and we just wanted to make it 1 limit for all. So it was hard to understand that if you get this hunt it doesn't count against your statewide limit? Why not allow the area manager to make that decision? Again it's drawn hunts on specific land , with a quota? That was part of the appeal of these hunts. We will probably never get those back in my opinion after my discussion. For what biological reason? Why not let our state finish the study before making any hasty changes and then we will all know what is best with proof one way or the other! Thanks for sharing Th88!

 

[Displaced_Vol]

I tend to believe what he (Dr. Chamberlain) is talking about because he has a couple decades worth of data he's been working on but I try to look at everything objectively. I'll say I think his position allows him to give different & more straight forward opinions than our state guys who have their hands tied for various reasons. I think your all's point is well taken that we don't need to just jump into it and close season until May, but I think it's worth taking a look at start dates which is what TN seems to be doing (if I'm not wrong)? It is undoubtedly a combination of factors that are putting a hurt on these birds, and DC acknowledges that if you listen to him, there is no smoking gun or silver bullet to fix it.
Last I'll add that I think one reason he seems to be pushing season dates is because it's one relatively simple thing we can change. Yes there's a process to it but changing season structure is much simpler than positively impacting land use strategies on a state level. Just my .02 on the whole deal.

 

[muddyboots]

I just don't get your turkeys muddyboots. They are the only turkeys in the country that only gobble before hens are bred, then don't say a word after peak nest initiation.

Everywhere else in the country, the most intense gobbling (in those places gobblers haven't already been killed) are right after hens initiate nests and start laying. Coincidentally, those gobbling toms are also those toms most likely to come to a call. There's a reason the biggest and most dominant toms are killed at the end of the season (unless cheaters kill them with strutter decoys early).

Opening season statewide 2 weeks later will be a BOON for everyone except for you when it comes to the quality of hunting, and would be an even bigger boon to the turkeys themselves.

The alternative is a 1 bird per year limit. Kill his *** when every you want, however you want. .. but your done once you killed one till Jan 1 2022. I'm fine if the state let's you kill a single gobbling turkey in January and you put up the gun.

Something isn't right with your habitat if your birds ony gobble early season with no hunting pressure. Hens must be leaving your place when it's time to nest and pulling toms with them to other properties or there are no toms left on the flock if there is no gobbling mid April.

I had pics of turkeys breeding here first of March. Yes n prime years our turkeys would gobble good until end of April. Just historically how it's been. This year I haven't heard but a few turkeys gobble any past fly down. According other hunters around here same story. The turkeys getting killed are deer hunted. Just not fun for me. If the open season later works well for your area do it. All I'm saying is it kills my area and I'm dead set against it. Out woods are fully leafed out. Dogwoods bloomed opening weekend. Way early this year. Just like you said chamberlain is a theory and I don't choose to believe it or support. Just my opinion. I want to hunt mid March to mid April. That's just me. I could care less about deer hunting turkeys.

 

[megalomaniac]

Unlike a bunch of folks, me and many other biologists don't fully bite into Chamberlain's theory. Key word being THEORY. This is not science based evidence he is spouting and many states are hopping on this popular bandwagon of changing seasons and taking away opportunity. Opportunity that will very likely not be given back. If pushing back season helped so much, Arkansas should be in much better shape than it is now! I've hunted MO for 15 years and the region I spend the most time in has half or maybe even less than half of the birds it did just 5 years ago. It's a function of mother nature, habitat, and the natural ups and downs of turkey populations. And on this topic, reducing the limit by a bird will have little to no noticeable effect on overall turkey numbers. More of a liberal approach to hunting: "You can't kill another bird to save one for this less experienced hunter, everyone deserves a turkey!"

One more thing. The delayed opener in the Middle TN counties happened to fall on a season where there are a good many 2 year olds. I track harvest data and the Jake harvests for 2020 in some of these counties was well above the 5 year running average. From this alone I knew 2021 would be better in a certain area. But people will jump the gun and try to contribute the good aeason/harvest to the later opener when it fact the 2019 hatch is the cause, not season changes. We saw the same thing last year in some southeastern states when folks tried blaming COVID for high harvests and ignored the fact there were more 2 year olds on the landscape in many areas than there had been in quiet a while. Even Chamberlain ignored this fact when he published that white paper of COVID's impacts on turkey.

I could go on, but I think you can see where I stand from the above.

I agree with you that not everything has been proven about Chamberlains theory of dominant gobblers and breeding hierarchy.

I also agree that dropping TN limit from 3 to 4 will accomplish nothing when it comes to overall population dynamics of the flock. Some parts of TN can easily sustain a higher harvest, while other locations cannot even afford to have a single tom removed.

Furthermore, I agree population trends either positive or negative fall singly on nesting success and then poult survival. And quality of habitat is the number 1 factor in nesting success, followed by reducing nest predators.

Although clutches of infertile eggs are a smaller factor in nesting failure, it DOES happen. And that is controllable by season structure.

My point is that the delayed 2 week season start in Southern TN did NOT hurt harvest opportunity or hunting quality; in that just as many toms were killed and the only difference is the timing of WHEN they were killed.

The interesting thing will be to trend nesting success over time in those counties with a delayed opening and see if it makes a difference or not with all other things being equal.

 

[tellico4x4]

All our birds were called in, not deer hunted. 5 were killed before 8:00, & the other at 1pm. Yes it has been quite for majority of day. I can't get over how our gobblers are still wadded up together. Tues morning we messed with 4 gobblers & 2 Jakes with hens & at other end of property this morning it was 3 gobblers & 1 Jake roosted with hens.

 

[gladesman60]

In my part of Giles, south of Pulaski there are more turkeys around me than there has been in 5 or 6 seasons Last year I had 14 toms and 16 hens wintering on my 70 acres. 2 weeks before the season they were all gone but 2. I killed one of them. This year I had 24 hens and 1 gobbler. The week before the opener I had 3 hens left and another tom showed up. I killed one. Yesterday out of the blue 2 more toms showed up. In my case I believe that it is my habitat. I have about 8 acres on the top of the hill that could be considered nesting area. Thats probably only enough room for a couple of hens to nest. Thats why I believe that the hens all start to leave in late March.
About 6 years ago I had 7 toms all the way up to the day before season. Day prior they were tearing it up gobbling everywhere. Opening morning, not a peep and not another gobbler on my land the rest of the season. Spring turkey shift I guess.

 

[muddyboots]

All our birds were called in, not deer hunted. 5 were killed before 8:00, & the other at 1pm. Yes it has been quite for majority of day. I can't get over how our gobblers are still wadded up together. Tues morning we messed with 4 gobblers & 2 Jakes with hens & at other end of property this morning it was 3 gobblers & 1 Jake roosted with hens.

6 turkeys ? How many acres?

 

[tellico4x4]

3500 acres but only a few turkey hunters. Much of property hasn't been hunted

 

[catman529]

I had pics of turkeys breeding here first of March. Yes n prime years our turkeys would gobble good until end of April. Just historically how it's been. This year I haven't heard but a few turkeys gobble any past fly down. According other hunters around here same story. The turkeys getting killed are deer hunted. Just not fun for me. If the open season later works well for your area do it. All I'm saying is it kills my area and I'm dead set against it. Out woods are fully leafed out. Dogwoods bloomed opening weekend. Way early this year. Just like you said chamberlain is a theory and I don't choose to believe it or support. Just my opinion. I want to hunt mid March to mid April. That's just me. I could care less about deer hunting turkeys.

Sounds like the birds I hunt in Alabama. Different breed it seems like...at least it was like that last year, they didn't act right through the last 2 weeks of season, even though I'd hear some roost gobbling and bump lone birds on the logging road that hadn't gobbled all day.

 

[muddyboots]

Here was my day. Typical late season. Took daughter before church. No gobbles. 7 hens. Leave at 9 for church. I go back at 1:30. I've seen 1 hen. 5 gobblers. No gobbles. No response to calls. All just feeding. Either guess where they going and wait or try to sneak. I tried sneak. Either to slow getting where I neeed or run out of cover. Typical late season. Despise it. But not enough to quit. Lol

 

[AlabamaSwamper]

I could have killed 10 a year in Wayne in the glory days. I never exceeded the limit. Last time I got a limit was 2010. Last day of season I listened only. There was a dozen gobbling in May within earshot.

really sad the state of the turkey population now. Ride around all day and don't see a single strutter. 15 years ago they were in every pasture.

 

[THE DUKE]

I could have killed 10 a year in Wayne in the glory days. I never exceeded the limit. Last time I got a limit was 2010. Last day of season I listened only. There was a dozen gobbling in May within earshot.

really sad the state of the turkey population now. Ride around all day and don't see a single strutter. 15 years ago they were in every pasture.

same in my area I hunt, sad part is we the hunters who have been mentioning this for a cpl yrs now didn't know anything. Why did it take so long for twra to acknowledge the facts.

 

[THE DUKE]

same in my area I hunt, sad part is we the hunters who have been mentioning this for a cpl yrs now didn't know anything. Why did it take so long for twra to acknowledge the facts.

So now us paying hunters are paying for it in more ways than one.

 

[poorhunter]

I could have killed 10 a year in Wayne in the glory days. I never exceeded the limit. Last time I got a limit was 2010. Last day of season I listened only. There was a dozen gobbling in May within earshot.

really sad the state of the turkey population now. Ride around all day and don't see a single strutter. 15 years ago they were in every pasture.

I'm glad for the guys that still have good numbers of birds, and I'm glad I had the opportunity for a few years to have great hunting before they virtually disappeared into thin air. Sudden, dramatic and sustained now for four years...hope things change to the good sometime soon. Whatever happened apparently hasn't affected the rest of Hickman County as there's still be a bunch of birds killed this year even if it is 20% less than last year.