Season Changes

Southern Sportsman

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I'm genuinely interested to see if there will be any regs changes going forward. Seems like for every study claiming start date has no impact there's a counter-study that states otherwise.
Better yet, THIS thesis paper (or more accurately, the abstract and summary) claims that start date has no impact. But the data shows improved nest success (significantly) and increased "hatchability" (small improvement in the study counties, but a simultaneous decrease in the non-delayed counties) following the season delay. This student just tries to explain away those improvements as attributable to other, non-specific factors.

If they want to give this kid his masters degree because he completed his thesis, fine, and I'm proud for him. But I hope people don't mistake this document for a peer reviewed study.
 
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Southern Sportsman

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Oh wow…actual science disproving something that's common sense: The delayed season does not help turkey populations. Something myself and many others have been saying.

Just curious - what, if any, specific data would you need to see before you would considered the possibility that the season delay might actually be beneficial for the longtime health of our turkey population?
 

Gobble4me757

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Just curious - what, if any, specific data would you need to see before you would considered the possibility that the season delay might actually be beneficial for the longtime health of our turkey population?
I just want to see a definitive difference in the Turkey population from hatching to overall numbers. You would think 5 years of data would show a clear cut difference if it did something. I have also seen on properties that we've managed with nest predator trapping a 2-300% increase in the overall turkey numbers in 2-3 years of trapping hard. If I saw any of that, I would be a huge supporter of the delay and decrease of bag limits. There hasn't been any data showing me that so I'm against it. Yes I'm against decoys as well but that's a whole topic for a different day.

For those of us who have to work as we are in healthcare and don't have the option to take off and you miss the first two weeks of the delayed season…you are screwed. I hunted hard last year and after those first two weeks, the green up made it near impossible to hunt.
 

megalomaniac

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For those of us who have to work as we are in healthcare and don't have the option to take off and you miss the first two weeks of the delayed season…you are screwed. I hunted hard last year and after those first two weeks, the green up made it near impossible to hunt
I don't understand this? What are your tactics?

For me it's WAY easier to get a bird to under 40 yards gobbling in your face after greenup. Sure, it's near impossible to actually SEE him at 40 yards, but that makes the hunt even more fun. Nothing worse than hunting a bird in open woods that is hung up at 75y because he can see right where you are calling from and he can see there is no real hen there so he loses interest.
 

Gobble4me757

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I don't understand this? What are your tactics?

For me it's WAY easier to get a bird to under 40 yards gobbling in your face after greenup. Sure, it's near impossible to actually SEE him at 40 yards, but that makes the hunt even more fun. Nothing worse than hunting a bird in open woods that is hung up at 75y because he can see right where you are calling from and he can see there is no real hen there so he loses interest.
A lot of it is the birds had moved off the properties that I hunted as they were there the end of March and beginning of April. I am pretty good at open woods hunting as I grew up hunting the bottoms in south bama. No I don't use dekes I just have learned some tricks hunting the open woods. My whole thing is when does it stop? They push back two weeks then next thing you know because that doesn't work, let's keep decreasing the limit and pushing back the season based on theory and not data ya know? Bama has done this. It was always march 15. Then it went to the 20th. Now it's the 25th. In south bama by the time April rolls around it's a jungle and you can't see more than 5 ft in a lot of places.
 

Rockhound

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I don't think they should go off the first 5 study counties with any data as we have a different problem all of out own. We had turkeys out the wazoo and they all died off in a matter of 1-2 years. I have a feeling they are basing their forthcoming regulations off something entirely different that the general public will know nothing about.
 

megalomaniac

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A lot of it is the birds had moved off the properties that I hunted as they were there the end of March and beginning of April.
Gotcha...

Im just the opposite in TN. Birds are in winter flocks off my properties until mid April when the breeding groups split off and the hens come to nest on my farms where the best nesting habitat is, and that pulls the toms with them. If all.you have to hunt is big ag fields in TN without nesting habitat, I can see why the mid April opening would hurt. Perhaps you could convert a portion of the property to better nesting habitat to keep the birds from leaving mid April?

But greenup makes for more fun hunting regardless, as you end up with closer encounters.
 

timberjack86

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I don't understand this? What are your tactics?

For me it's WAY easier to get a bird to under 40 yards gobbling in your face after greenup. Sure, it's near impossible to actually SEE him at 40 yards, but that makes the hunt even more fun. Nothing worse than hunting a bird in open woods that is hung up at 75y because he can see right where you are calling from and he can see there is no real hen there so he loses interest.
That's where woodsmanship shines. Never set up where a gobbler can see 75 yards to where your calling from. Use any slight rise in the land, bend in a road or green briar bush so that he has to come within shotgun distance to see your calling location. Living in the mountains nearly my whole life our green up always comes later than most. And imo Greenup is not necessary for close encounters.
 

Buzzard Breath

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I don't think they should go off the first 5 study counties with any data as we have a different problem all of out own. We had turkeys out the wazoo and they all died off in a matter of 1-2 years. I have a feeling they are basing their forthcoming regulations off something entirely different that the general public will know nothing about.
^^^^ This ^^^^
 

Southern Sportsman

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I just want to see a definitive difference in the Turkey population from hatching to overall numbers. You would think 5 years of data would show a clear cut difference if it did something.
I can respect just wanting to see improvement. But to be fair, it's not 5 years worth of data concerning the delay. The delay went into effect in the study counties for '21 and '22. They didn't study it for '23 because all the counties were delayed (no "control group" counties to study). So it's only two years worth of data. During which, there was a significant improvement in nest success rate ("NS"). And seemingly, we had pretty good hatches those years (not all attributable to the delay, but the delay certainly didn't hurt, and likely helped). And I'm anxious to see the statewide estimates when the annual status report for 2023 comes out, compared to prior years before the delay.

Even if it the delay works as well as Mike Chamberlain could have ever hoped, it's not going to be like flipping a switch and seeing a bunch more turkeys the next year. Especially when you're starting with an already depleted population. The fewer turkeys you start with, the smaller the perceived difference a 20% improvement makes. But as populations grow, the bigger the difference.

For example:

In the study, average clutch size across all years and all counties was 9.9 eggs, and average "hatchability" (percentage of eggs in surviving nests that actually hatched) was .86. Meaning that, on average, each successful nest hatched ~ 8.5 poults.
So, if an area has 500 hens that nest, our pre-delay NS rate (.25 — average NS rate for all 5 counties combined before the delay) would give you 125 successful nests, producing 1062.5 poults. With the NS rate we had in the three delayed counties immediately after the delay (.35), of those same 500 nests, 175 would succeed, hatching 1540 poults. That's 40% more successful nests and 45% more poults hatched.

Ideally, with a few more turkeys on the landscape, the next season, that same population will lay more nests. I don't know how many more (a lot of other variables at play), but lest say 20% more, so 600 nests the next year. If the NS and hatchability rates stay the same (hatchability is pretty constant and not impacted by the delay), 600 nests produce 1785 poults (with pre-delay NS rates, that number would be 1275). With more turkeys hatching, if you have a few more nests laid year-over-year, the population grows. But it doesn't grow fast, so it takes more than 2 years to "see a definitive difference in the turkey population."

Sorry for the long post, but my point is simply that the delay appears to have made, or at least undeniably correlates with, a statistically significant improvement (>21% +) in nesting success. So maybe we should have some patience before complaining that the delay (which has only been in effect for 1 year in 85 out of TN's 95 counties) "didn't work." For most of the state, the population decline has happened gradually over 15-20 years. I don't think we should expect it to be fixed in one.
 
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Spurhunter

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A lot of it is the birds had moved off the properties that I hunted as they were there the end of March and beginning of April.
That's what happens at my Henderson County lease. I used to get 1 maybe 2 good weeks before green up. Once it greened up it got thick and the turkeys were gone. Now I probably won't have a bird to hunt this year with the early green up and late opening date. But, if it helps the turkeys I'm ok with that.
 

Grizzly Johnson

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Well I am no certified expert but I have been watching birds in my area and feel like the delayed start last year helped… and is helping this year as well. I have been seeing strutters for 2-3 weeks now and several of them were breeding hens… by now with the old season, they would be getting shot at rather than being allowed to breed first.
 

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Close the loophole that is letting poachers road hunt at night. Just like they do spotlighting. You will let them road hunt with a thermal and that is why all these problems are happening. If you dont like hearing the complaints then tell whoever is responsible for road hunting regulations at night because i've already told them. Im done telling them.

The next little girl that's crying about her horse or the next homeowner that gets shot at it is on whoever is responsible for letting them thermal road hunt.
How many homes and livestock has been shot?
 

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