Food Plots Planting sequence questions for no-tillers

[BSK]

OK, a couple of questions for the experienced no-till planters on here. If I try to plant my fall plots using no-till (and not using a drill - my ground is far too rocky for that), what is the proper sequence of events? Let's assume I have knee-high to mid-thigh-high summer growth in the plots to start with. If I spray glysophate onto this standing growth, I probably won't get a good kill as the spray won't reach any ground-cover weeds. However, if I mow first and then spray, I still won't get a good burndown because duff will be covering a lot of the ground-cover weeds. Would I have to let the mowed areas regrow for a week or two and then spray to get a good burndown, then broadcast seed and cultipack? Any negatives to spraying and spreading seed and cultipacking on the same day? I would prefer not to have too much plot unproductive downtime, but I guess I could do plots in stages, keeping some productive while others are going through the mow/spray/seeding process.

In the past, when I used throw-and mow-planting techniques, I would mow, wait a week, spray, wait another week, and then broadcast seed. Germination rates with this technique were poor, but then I never considered cultipacking after spreading seed. Nor did I ever consider spraying and seeding the same day.

 

[ADR]

1) I try to mow before a rain
2) rain will make everything green after a week to ten days so then I spray
3) try to broadcast immediately before next rain- this is so the rain can push the seeds to the ground and into mowed much to increase seed soil contact and decrease scavenging from turkeys
This works for cereal grains and clover but not enough seed soil contact for dicots like Australian winter peas.

YMMV

 

[BSK]

1) I try to mow before a rain
2) rain will make everything green after a week to ten days so then I spray
3) try to broadcast immediately before next rain- this is so the rain can push the seeds to the ground and into mowed much to increase seed soil contact and decrease scavenging from turkeys
This works for cereal grains and clover but not enough seed soil contact for dicots like Australian winter peas.

YMMV

This is basically what I used to do. Germination was very poor except clover and cereal grain. But I never tried cultipacking, which is supposed to shake larger seeds down to the ground and produce better seed-soil contact. And you're right, using that method, larger seeds such as AW Peas are a no go. Probably no more than 10% germination.

 

[ADR]

This is basically what I used to do. Germination was very poor except clover and cereal grain. But I never tried cultipacking, which is supposed to shake larger seeds down to the ground and produce better seed-soil contact. And you're right, using that method, larger seeds such as AW Peas are a no go. Probably no more than 10% germination.

I could be wrong but I don't think you will ever get good germ out of larger seeds like AWP without some soil disturbance. Especially the way dicots germinate vs monocots. I hope a cultipacker works for you but I would be surprised.

 

[BSK]

It's a Catch 22. Throw-and-mow no-till does create better soil over time. It also helps hold in soil moisture and prevents wind/water erosion of the soil. But seed germination is poor, and large-seeded plants don't germinate well at all.

Then I can till, which increases initial moisture absorption, breaks up the surface hard-pan, incorporates nutrients deeper into the soil, and not only vastly increases seed germination of all types of seeds but allows for much better plant growth (deeper root development). But tilling also increases wind/water erosion, produces the fastest soil moisture evaporation, and hinders normal soil development on ground that desperately needs soil development. Plus, it's time consuming and darn hard on equipment.

The best plots I've ever produced were from tilling. My worst plot drought disasters were also from tilling. Very difficult decisions.

 

[ADR]

That's essentially why strip tillage/fertilizing/planting is becoming so popular with large agriculture producers. It requires not only auto guidance but RTK to do but it is a cool concept.

 

[Big Pop]

We have tried most methods but on a small scale, usually less than 1/2 acre plots on Walden Mountain near Plateau. We do use a Ground Hog plow on a four wheeler to push seed into ground and not really use it to plow the bare ground. Spray, wait a few weeks, broadcast seed and run over with the Ground Hog and ATV which breaks or crushes a lot of weeds or previous plantings and pushes seeds near or into the soil. This makes for a better mulch on the seed than mowing. This is more like straw on a yard. I've tried mowing and now only use it on established clover plots in summer.

I'm getting ready to spray a new small plot that we simply ran over waist high weeds and briars just to break them down before we spray them and then we'll broadcast seed in a few weeks and run over with plow and ATV to "semi drill" the seed to soil. Sort of a small "kill plot" I suppose.

 

[tellico4x4]

My experience is pretty much like BSK, best annual plots come from turning dirt. Tried the throw & mow for 3 years with mediocre results at best. Went back to disk, tiller & cultipacker last year. Bought the 7' cultipacker new in 2009 & makes all the difference in the world with seed contact.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

It seems most methods of no till have been mentioned or experimented with the above. There are only so many techniques, right? Another option (and may just try as an experimental plot) may be to lightly disk into the standing crop…just lightly "cupped" enough to get maybe 50% loose soil and 50% standing crop still standing (or 40/60…60/40…whatever), then spray, then broadcast seed, then cultipack…all right before a rain.

We've sprayed and drilled same day many times with great results. Gly won't bother the seed, and it dries quick….especially doing things in sequence (spreading seed 1-2 hours after spraying). Takes that long anyways to get back to your place and to get your next "tool in the workshop loaded and ready to use"

 

[BSK]

We've sprayed and drilled same day many times with great results. Gly won't bother the seed, and it dries quick….especially doing things in sequence (spreading seed 1-2 hours after spraying). Takes that long anyways to get back to your place and to get your next "tool in the workshop loaded and ready to use"

I tell you what, the switching of equipment is the killer for me. I'm usually working alone, and swapping equipment on the tractor by myself is a no-go. Never found an easy way to swap 3-point hitch equipment. Have to have one other person around to help line things up. So I have the bushhog on the tractor to mow, then put the tank and boom on the ATV to spray. Then the bushhog has to be swapped with the tiller for tilling. We have the broadcast seeder on a UTV, and then I've been covering seed with a drag harrow behind the ATV (which soon will be replaced with a pull-behind cultipacker).

In the past, because of the problems swapping equipment, I would do all 7 acres with each piece of equipment. I would mow all plots, then spray all plots, then till all plots, then seed all plots, then drag all plots. However, I've had some bad experiences where a freak thunderstorm comes up after I've tilled the plots but before they are all seeded. The pounding rain packed the tilled soil back down and they had to be tilled again (or at least drug with the drag harrow - teeth down) to loosen the soil. I'm either going to do one plot at a time this year, or maybe do half the plots, wait until they germinate, and then do the other half. That way I don't completely "clean the food plot table" for a couple of weeks.

Because I'm going to lime and fertilize heavy this fall, I'm still going to till before planting my fall plots (to incorporate lime and fertilizer into the soil). But I'm going to till much shallower than I have in the past. Probably only about 2-3" instead of the 6-8" I have been doing. The deep tilling really slows me down. To till that deep into hard, rocky ground, I have to crawl along at half walking speed. It takes FOREVER to till all my plots at that slow of a speed. I can more than double my speed if I'm only tilling the surface (2-3").

 

[TnKen]

I tell you what, the switching of equipment is the killer for me. I'm usually working alone, and swapping equipment on the tractor by myself is a no-go. Never found an easy way to swap 3-point hitch equipment. Have to have one other person around to help line things up. So I have the bushhog on the tractor to mow, then put the tank and boom on the ATV to spray. Then the bushhog has to be swapped with the tiller for tilling. We have the broadcast seeder on a UTV, and then I've been covering seed with a drag harrow behind the ATV (which soon will be replaced with a pull-behind cultipacker).

In the past, because of the problems swapping equipment, I would do all 7 acres with each piece of equipment. I would mow all plots, then spray all plots, then till all plots, then seed all plots, then drag all plots. However, I've had some bad experiences where a freak thunderstorm comes up after I've tilled the plots but before they are all seeded. The pounding rain packed the tilled soil back down and they had to be tilled again (or at least drug with the drag harrow - teeth down) to loosen the soil. I'm either going to do one plot at a time this year, or maybe do half the plots, wait until they germinate, and then do the other half. That way I don't completely "clean the food plot table" for a couple of weeks.

Because I'm going to lime and fertilize heavy this fall, I'm still going to till before planting my fall plots (to incorporate lime and fertilizer into the soil). But I'm going to till much shallower than I have in the past. Probably only about 2-3" instead of the 6-8" I have been doing. The deep tilling really slows me down. To till that deep into hard, rocky ground, I have to crawl along at half walking speed. It takes FOREVER to till all my plots at that slow of a speed. I can more than double my speed if I'm only tilling the surface (2-3").

https://www.patsquickhitches.com/
These quick hitch attachments make life so much simpler. You don't have to kick,pry, cuss and all the other stuff to get hooked up. I have a set on my kubota and love them.

 

[Bucket]

https://www.patsquickhitches.com/
These quick hitch attachments make life so much simpler. You don't have to kick,pry, cuss and all the other stuff to get hooked up. I have a set on my kubota and love them.

I was just about to post this for @BSK . First thing I bought when I got my tractor.

 

[tellico4x4]

Got it as well, game changer when by yourself

 

[deerhunter10]

We tried a plot and different little ways 3 years in a row that was tough to get to. Never had any kind of success. Very patchy and had probably only around a 40ish percent germination rate. I did some more research and the vast concensus that I found is the majority that do this method only has a 40 to 60 percent germination rate when it worked pretty well and it's still usually patchy. And a 10 to 20 percent wasnt uncommon at all. We ditched it and went pretty much no till but with a drill and just made our roads accommodate our equipment.

 

[BSK]

https://www.patsquickhitches.com/
These quick hitch attachments make life so much simpler. You don't have to kick,pry, cuss and all the other stuff to get hooked up. I have a set on my kubota and love them.

I'll look into those.

 

[BSK]

1) I try to mow before a rain
2) rain will make everything green after a week to ten days so then I spray

That sure is the truth! When I mowed my plots, it was right at the end of a 4-week period without rain. I thought everything standing was dead. 2 1/2" of rain later, I've got beautiful thick green plots about 6 inches high - just all weeds and grass! That's going to choke out my summer plants pretty quick.

 

[ADR]

That sure is the truth! When I mowed my plots, it was right at the end of a 4-week period without rain. I thought everything standing was dead. 2 1/2" of rain later, I've got beautiful thick green plots about 6 inches high - just all weeds and grass! That's going to choke out my summer plants pretty quick.

If you want to experiment with one plot, just spray it clethodim and let the poke weed, ragweed and other natural browse flourish. It surprises a lot of people what Mother Nature will naturally provide.

 

[DoubleRidge]

I understand the concern but we have sprayed into taller vegetation and gotten a decent kill before...boomless nozzle, big droplets, drove slow...not ideal but you can still get a kill....and we have sprayed and sowed same day with zero issue...and I do like the cultipacker idea...to help push seed to soil but also to smash the dead thatch down over the seed.
With all that said....we have experimented with various seeds using spray, sow and mow....soybean to clover and several in-between and the only plots we've ever done that we're practically perfect with very few weeds were when we used buckwheat for a summer crop....for a spray ,sow and mow fall crop we've had the best luck with cereal rye.
And in both cases we went well above the recommended seed rate and we were blessed with good ground soaking rains...it can work...and the cultipaker should only increase your odds.

 

[DoubleRidge]

If you want to experiment with one plot, just spray it clethodim and let the poke weed, ragweed and other natural browse flourish. It surprises a lot of people what Mother Nature will naturally provide.

I like this experiment...and if i had a plot full of poke weed and ragweed id leave it alone.

Along the same lines....one year we had a small plot we never got back to after spraying.....sprayed with glysophate late summer....all the big stuff died and laid down and we got a few good rains that followed....it greened up with natural young tender browse and looked decent that fall....worked out.

 

[BSK]

If you want to experiment with one plot, just spray it clethodim and let the poke weed, ragweed and other natural browse flourish. It surprises a lot of people what Mother Nature will naturally provide.

Honestly, that's a great idea. I have no problem with the broadleaf weeds. As you mentioned, most of it is pokeweed and ragweed, which I welcome in my plots. Deer eat the snot out of that.

 

[BSK]

And in both cases we went well above the recommended seed rate and we were blessed with good ground soaking rains...it can work...and the cultipaker should only increase your odds.

Most recommended seeding rates are for drilling. Best recommendations for broadcast seeding are 50% above drilling rate.

 

[muddyboots]

Try this. Bushog about a month before you want to plant. Then spray. Then no till from into the tall
Grass. Then bushog to give mulch. That's what I was told works.

 

[BSK]

Try this. Bushog about a month before you want to plant. Then spray. Then no till from into the tall
Grass. Then bushog to give mulch. That's what I was told works.

Only problem is, that mows down your summer plots a month prior to planting. I hate to clear the food plot table for that long.

 

[muddyboots]

Only problem is, that mows down your summer plots a month prior to planting. I hate to clear the food plot table for that long.

Yes it would. I don't do as much summer stuff as you as I hunt in farm land. Always beans around close.

 

[BSK]

Yes it would. I don't do as much summer stuff as you as I hunt in farm land. Always beans around close.

Actually, same here. In fact, I have a very low deer density in summer. All the deer are down in the bottoms feasting on beans. But I feel guilty not having stuff growing for them! Crazy, I know...

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Actually, same here. In fact, I have a very low deer density in summer. All the deer are down in the bottoms feasting on beans. But I feel guilty not having stuff growing for them! Crazy, I know...

I wish I was in your situation so bad - let the farmers grow deer all summer and you just have to have the attractant in fall. Would make life so much easier. We don't have any row crops 10 miles as the crow flies. This was the main reasons we went from 9 to 25-30 acres of fields…to help grow them. We know summer and fall shifts happen, but with all the select cutting and burning, we will hopefully have a few stay that would otherwise leave……over time - I think that will change over time. If just 1 or 2 target bucks stay around come fall, I'll be happy….not to mention the health of the does and their milk

 

[BSK]

I wish I was in your situation so bad - let the farmers grow deer all summer and you just have to have the attractant in fall.

That is exactly the odd situation my place is in. Before we started cutting timber and creating lots of cover and summer foods (weeds), our place was the summer range of quite a few bucks (averaging 15-20 of all ages). All of the does and fawns were in the bottomlands and bucks were relegated to our poorer habitat during the fawn-rearing season (summer). Since we got serious about cutting timber, now we've turned our place into the doe-fawn Mecca, and we may have no more than 3-5 bucks using our place in summer. Yet from velvet shedding to the end of deer season we are getting upwards of 50 different bucks using our place.

 

[BSK]

Looks like it was a huge mistake not to spray plots after seeding and mowing, even though all the growth looked dead at the time. Once we got some good rains, grasses are taking over the older, more established (better soil) plots. What I seeded did germinate, but grasses are outgrowing the beans and buckwheat. Can't spray grass-killer because sorghum is in the mix.

However, the plots that had little dead growth to mow down are doing quite well. A nice stand of buckwheat, soybeans and Lab Lab.

 

[JCDEERMAN]

Looks like it was a huge mistake not to spray plots after seeding and mowing, even though all the growth looked dead at the time. Once we got some good rains, grasses are taking over the older, more established (better soil) plots. What I seeded did germinate, but grasses are outgrowing the beans and buckwheat. Can't spray grass-killer because sorghum is in the mix.

However, the plots that had little dead growth to mow down are doing quite well. A nice stand of buckwheat, soybeans and Lab Lab.

We did a mixture of soybeans, sorghum, buckwheat and sunn hemp….with the huge majority being RR soybeans. We've been so dry, the weeds have taken over. Our salvaging plan was to go back through and spray (we didn't know how things were going to turn out with using the crimper for the first time). So spraying is the plan now before all the weeds to go seed. Should have a good stand of soybeans after that.

It's amazing how fast weeds can grow when it's dry

 

[BSK]

It's amazing how fast weeds can grow when it's dry

They are far more drought tolerant than the ag plants we plant!