Old Pyrodex...

[MUP]

Well, I went out and shot the ML over the weekend. Plum pitiful. I was all over the place. This ML is a proven shooter from years past, and the only thing I can think of is that the can of Pyro I'm using is several years old. I've kept it in the safe with controlled humidity, but do you guys think this could be the culprit? I plan to open a fresh bottle and try again, hopefully this weekend to try to eliminate this possibility. From what I've read, it seems that Pyrodex can last for years, so I'm kinda stumped if this isn't the issue.

 

[volsfan1976]

Mup, maybe with the weather like it is and the muzzleloader in your hands the excitement was just to much to keep from shaking uncontrollably. hehehehe just kidding. I would be interested in this to because I have a couple old cans of pyrodex stored also for about 3-4 years. I switched to bh209 in my new muzzleloader but was gonna use the pyro in my old ones. maybe I need to just throw it away

 

[Wobblyshot1]

I've heard it makes pretty good fertilizer.

 

[MUP]

I think I remember stik talking about it a couple years or so ago. Iirc he opened a new bottle and was back in bidness.

 

[MUP]

I'd rather stick with loose powder, let's me measure up or down a little more precisely, plus I believe I get more reliable ignition...if it's not old that is lol

 

[Stykbow]

Kinda weird. I don't shoot the loose stuff anymore, but I've shooting from the same box of pellets for about 14 years and never had any problems.


Jack of all trades, but master of none!

 

[Matador]

I have 3-4 cans probably 4-8 year old that we use for practice. Never had any problems as far as accuracy. Shot some of it Sat. Evening.

 

[MUP]

I believe this particular can may have absorbed some moisture. When I shook it, it felt like there was a clump of powder that broke up as I shook it. Like I said before, I keep this powder in the safe, moisture controlled, but the lid has been unsealed and not air tight for all these years. I'll post up the results of using a new bottle when I get another chance to get out there. ;)

 

[iowavf]

I'd be getting a new bottle. When I used pellets, I'd get a new box each season and use the old to target shoot just in case.

 

[mike243]

I had it degrade over time before,powder looked fine but poor performance ,new bottle and all good,coarse that was before smokeless ;)

 

[MUP]

Yea, I definitely don't need a magnum anything where I hunt. Most shots are 50 yds or under, with the occasional 75 or more.

 

[ROVERBOY]

I never had good luck with Pyrodex . It didn't last all that long and would sometimes hangfire. I switched to Goex 2f black for a long time then switched to Tripple 7.

 

[GMB54]

Pyrodex is as corrosive or more than real black and has less power than Swiss or Olde Enyford. Its only about the same as regular Goex so if you can get Goex, you can probably also get Olde Enysford for only a few bucks more per pound. Both are made by Goex but OE is a much hotter powder than regular Goex. Nearly the same as Swiss.

Pyrodex is absolutely the last powder i would ever use. Pellets are even worse in terms of storage and price.

 

[Wobblyshot1]

This was taken from another forum and posted by a powder expert who I have a great deal of trust. Thought this might make an interesting read for pyrodex users. Apparently it will degrade.....

Regarding the subs.
Until recently the ascorbic acid based subs had problems with short shelf-life. Ask anybody who had any experience with Black Canyon powder. To cure the moisture sensitivity short shelf-life problem they had to get away from heat degrading the ascorbic acid. Which results in a weaker powder. There are a host of patents dealing with the ascorbic acid based subs. With Black Mag you see a bunch of potassium perchlorate heaved into it to make it faster. Which also makes it rather corrosive.

Pyrodex has a long history of shelf-life issues. Shelf-life depended on how much moisture got into the container once the foam seal was removed from the container.

Back in the mid-1980's I was visited by a young man who was the East Coast ML rep for Lyman. He had a question for me.
He shot Pyrodex in his percussion ml rifle in deer season in the state that he lived in. The previous season he had scouted out a nice buck. Come hunting season he got close enough for a good shot. He fired the rifle. As he described it. He could actually follow the flight of the ball. It was that slow. It hit the side of the deer and bounced off!
So he took the gun and container of powder into work. Ran some rounds over the chronograph. He noted a wild range in velocities. Running from around 600 fps to around 1100 fps. Same charge volume, patch, ball, etc.

Pyrodex uses elemental sulfur in with the potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate and a bit of charcoal. If you look in: The Chemistry of Powder & explosives by Tenny L. Davis, in the section on primer compositions you see a warning where a chlorate or perchlorate muist never be used with elemental sulfur. That with the addition of moisture you will get a "self-souring" action in the powder. The reaction makes the composition unreliable. At first the composition becomes erratic in its behavior. Then becomes weak and then finally stops working completely.

I was impressed with Hodgdon's 777 powder. A change in formulation that should give a very long shelf-life with no deterioration in performance during storage.

 

[MUP]

I may actually just get the CVA Blackhorn BP for my own CVA Kodiak Mag, and use BH209 in the new Wolf I'm planning to get, as well as my Kod Mag now. I did like the BH209 a lot when I tried it before, it was just that my BP didn't allow for reliable ignition with it. Heck, I think I shot 13-14 times in a row w/o a swabbing with it, but had a few hang/no fires along the way tho.

 

[GMB54]

They dont make a BH209 plug for pre 2010 CVAs such as the Kodiak. Its a simple modification though or you can check with Ron on the MML forum and see if he still mods the plugs for about $20. The same modification can be done to the OEM CVA QR plug that comes with the newer rifles. IMO its better than either BH209 plug.

Increase flash channel to 5/32 and countersink a Savage type vent liner into the powder side. Ive used this exact same plug design in mine without fail.
http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum ... hp?t=21681

 

[MUP]

GMB54, do you have a pic of the Savage type vent liner you speak of? When you say countersink, do you mean press it in? I'm a machinist and could likely do this easily, if I understand it thoroughly. ;)

 

[MUP]

Ahh, I just saw the link above the first pic. Thanks for the info!

 

[GMB54]

If you are a machinist its a piece of cake. The huge benefit to this mod is the plug will virtually last forever. You just replace vent liners when they wear out. I prefer Lehigh brand vent liners but you could make your own and just replace them for almost pennies instead of $5 each. Making them is hard on drill bits but.....

You should get 200 shots plus from a Lehigh vent liner. Replace them when they get to no larger than about .037. If you make your own start them out around .028-.030

 

[MUP]

I'm not at all familiar with what a vent liner is even, but if it can be made I can surely make it. Would be nice to find a blueprint for them.

 

[Jcalder]

I'm not at all familiar with what a vent liner is even, but if it can be made I can surely make it. Would be nice to find a blueprint for them.

if I had one I would take care of you, but it may be worth having someone send you one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[451LRML]

10-32 flat head socket head cap screw slightly under 1/2" long. 0.030" Hole drilled thru.
Lehigh are domed heads and Savage are flat heads.

 

[MUP]

So the threaded section just slips into the 5/32 hole that has been countersunk ? Looks like the BP should be tapped to accept the 10-32 flathead screw.

 

[451LRML]

So the threaded section just slips into the 5/32 hole that has been countersunk ? Looks like the BP should be tapped to accept the 10-32 flathead screw.

Machine (drill/tap) the muzzle end of your BP to accept the 10-32 Flat head screw, yes you'll need a to match the angle (I can't recall if I used a 100 or 82 degree countersink?) the OD of the Flat head is 3/8".

 

[GMB54]

The link i posted has a complete walk through with pics

Then the 5/32" drill was replaced by a # 4 1/2 eighty two degree center drill; the drill was lowered until it contacted the plug, and the depth gauge on the drill press set to 3/8".

Several pics of the Lehigh vents here and they sell them too http://www.badgerridgeind.com/store/p11/LehighVentLiner

 

[MUP]

So the vent liners are just flat head, or button head screws, with a .030" hole drilled thru them. Ok , got that. I'm trying to understand why they are just seated in the 5/32" hole, that has been c'sunk, instead of having the 5/32" hole be a 10-32 tapped hole so they can be screwed into place. I guess my concern is that the liners will be able to just fall out? Thanks for your patience, as I find this very interesting and plan to modify my own BP once I fully understand the process. ;)

 

[GMB54]

They are screwed in place. The new 5/32 flash channel is tapped to 10-32

The center drill then was used to drill a 3/8" diameter hole 3/8" deep in the end of the breech plug.

Next

the center drill removed, and a 10-32 tap was chucked
The vent to be installed has about 6 thread.
The chuck was marked with the blue line so rotations could be counted whilst threading the plug. Eight rotations were made to insure the vent would fully seat.

 

[MUP]

Ahhhhhh, ok, I understand now. Thanks again for the help GMB! Much appreciated! The entire process should be much easier in the lathe. ;)

 

[GMB54]

MUCH easier on a lathe!!!!!

If your Kodiak gets excess blowby you can use either an o-ring that needs replacing after around 20 shots OR you can buy "shims" from Mcmasters for the primer pocket. Use smaller OD one first to measure for proper amount of primer crush. Around .003 crush is good and safe. Then use shims that are tight in the primer pocket once you know how many you need.

This is the oring you need for primer pockets if the Kodiak primers come out dirty. https://www.mcmaster.com/#9262k611/=19ev9kx

 

[GMB54]

Forgot one thing....

Try Nobel primers in the CVA plugs. They are larger OD and fit CVA plugs quite well. They work with BH209 also and are often cheaper than USA brands.