Measures of QDM "success"

BigGameGuy

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Never under estimate the power of the nose.

I don't think they are going to an "area", they are more than likely going to a "girl friend".
 

TheLBLman

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156p&y said:
I've seen older bucks trotting almost franticly in a dead straight line to areas they bed, right at and right after daylight. It was like they where vampires that had to get in their coffin before the sun was completely up. And when I say straight line I'm talking, not on a trail and just lowering their heads to go through thick brush.
I have experienced this many times, and one of my best bucks (and oldest) bucks ever was taken back in 1984 during the 1st 5 minutes of legal shooting time, as he was running to his bedding area. He was making so much noise, I'm sure he was over a half mile away when I first heard him coming, allowing me plenty of time to be ready, if only there would enough light when he passed.
BSK said:
Most of these beeline travels are at night.
Most of these "beeline" travels I have heard, not seen. These older bucks almost seem to try to make extra noise --- sometimes sounding more like a horse galloping thru the woods than a deer. Most of these I've experienced when I got on stand about an hour before first light, and most of the time, I would hear these beeline travels begin and end well before first light.

I should add that I've experience much less of this over the past several years in the same hunting areas where it was once almost an every morning (pre-light) experience. When the area was several square miles of unbroken hardwoods, I experienced this often. As the habitat has changed into mixed hardwoods, dense young pine, and thick young clear-cuts, I believe these bucks are doing less of this. While I couldn't hear one as well going thru pine, they might make more noise in some of the thick cover. My theory is it became harder to travel in a beeline once the habitat when from many square miles of fairly open hardwoods to mixed habitat.

BigGameGuy said:
Never under estimate the power of the nose.

I don't think they are going to an "area", they are more than likely going to a "girl friend".
I'm sure that is sometimes the case, but that did not appear to be the case in my experiences described above. I often hunted saddles on high ridges where I could actually hear a running deer over a mile below as it came up the ridge, crossed, and then might go another half-mile when everything just suddenly stopped ---- like he had reached his bedding place for the day, barely before daylight ---- sometimes right after.

It's the timing of these jaunts that makes me believe they were not smelling a doe, as well as the great distances they typically traveled, galloping more like a horse than a deer. And it was nearly always just one deer --- the relatively few times I've been able to see --- nearly always an older buck.

The hunting implications were that I was tipped off to many older buck bedding areas by hearing where they stopped, then hunting closer, and closer to those areas in subsequent hunts, sometimes eventually killing another mature buck as a result.
 

BSK

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BigGameGuy said:
Never under estimate the power of the nose.

I don't think they are going to an "area", they are more than likely going to a "girl friend".

I agree. From Mark's data, the bucks were obviously chasing a doe once they got to where they were going. But man, that's a long way for scent to travel.

I guess some does are just really stinky. :)

Actually, I dated a girl like that once... ;)
 

Mike Belt

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How far did you have to travel?

Right now I have a lab in heat. My male lab, usually very controllable, has gone nuts. Mature bucks that are never seen or even known to have existed finally break their "code of invisibility", even if only briefly, after getting a whiff of an estrous doe. I fully buy into the fact that bucks will travel long distances in search of those does and I can see why 2.5 year old bucks would make these 2+ mile forays searching as well as avoiding the older, more dominant bucks in those areas. The part that befuddles me is why they would return to their starting points so soon. If the lure of sex is strong enough to pull them out of their seclusion in the first place but they return within a 24 hour period (provided they didn't couple up with a doe) is it because of fatique, the security that that immediate "home" range offers, or have they mastubated temporarily gratifying themselves to the point of a temporarily subdued sex drive?
 

gil1

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Mike Belt said:
or have they mastubated temporarily gratifying themselves to the point of a temporarily subdued sex drive?
If deer could masterbait, I don't think I would ever have a shot at a decent buck! Why would they ever leave their bedroom?
 

TOW

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gil1 said:
Mike Belt said:
or have they mastubated temporarily gratifying themselves to the point of a temporarily subdued sex drive?
If deer could masterbait, I don't think I would ever have a shot at a decent buck! Why would they ever leave their bedroom?

They can, as can several other animals..
 

Mike Belt

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You'll only miss out on the gay bucks. The straight ones will still chase after the girls. By virtue of this, the man that has a wall full of commandergot bucks is by far the better hunter.
 

BSK

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gil1 said:
Mike Belt said:
or have they mastubated temporarily gratifying themselves to the point of a temporarily subdued sex drive?
If deer could masterbait, I don't think I would ever have a shot at a decent buck! Why would they ever leave their bedroom?

Actually, bucks regularly masterbait. I've seen many video-clips of them doing so.
 

TOW

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BSK said:
gil1 said:
Mike Belt said:
or have they mastubated temporarily gratifying themselves to the point of a temporarily subdued sex drive?
If deer could masterbait, I don't think I would ever have a shot at a decent buck! Why would they ever leave their bedroom?

Actually, bucks regularly masterbait. I've seen many video-clips of them doing so.


Several years ago I watched a spike when he did his own thing. he was trailing a big buck and doe and was totally frustrated as the big buck kept running him off. That is the first time I had ever seen that happen. A friend of mine has a captive deer herd and he has seen it a number of times. He hunched his back up and rubbed his fishing rod against his belly. His whole body shuddered and then he looked around, I guess to see if anybody was watching. ;)

The big buck was with the doe most of the morning and finally came by my stand at 7 yards... shame on him.. :grin:

The crossbow spoke and he ran 80 yards and keeled over.

Maybe after that the spike took up with the doe?
 

gil1

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TOW said:
BSK said:
gil1 said:
Mike Belt said:
or have they mastubated temporarily gratifying themselves to the point of a temporarily subdued sex drive?
If deer could masterbait, I don't think I would ever have a shot at a decent buck! Why would they ever leave their bedroom?

Actually, bucks regularly masterbait. I've seen many video-clips of them doing so.


Several years ago I watched a spike when he did his own thing. he was trailing a big buck and doe and was totally frustrated as the big buck kept running him off. That is the first time I had ever seen that happen. A friend of mine has a captive deer herd and he has seen it a number of times. He hunched his back up and rubbed his fishing rod against his belly. His whole body shuddered and then he looked around, I guess to see if anybody was watching. ;)

The big buck was with the doe most of the morning and finally came by my stand at 7 yards... shame on him.. :grin:

The crossbow spoke and he ran 80 yards and keeled over.

Maybe after that the spike took up with the doe?

I thought y'all were just joking. Learn something new every day...

No wonder the bucks are all holed up in cover during the day. They need a little self-love down-time. Probably beats having to listen to the does constantly yappin' about clearing trails, crapping all over the neighbor's home range, and finding the sweet acorn spots. "You didn't get home until after sun-up. What were you doing all night?" :grin:
 

richmanbarbeque

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Mike Belt said:
You'll only miss out on the gay bucks. The straight ones will still chase after the girls. By virtue of this, the man that has a wall full of commandergot bucks is by far the better hunter.

That is a classic post Mike. Sorry to hi-jack, too funny!!!
 

David J

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gil1 said:
Mike Belt said:
or have they mastubated temporarily gratifying themselves to the point of a temporarily subdued sex drive?
If deer could masterbait, I don't think I would ever have a shot at a decent buck! Why would they ever leave their bedroom?

Gil1,
You should have been at the QDMA Convention. Thursday afternoon was deer porno exibition. I guess you won't ever have a shot at a decent buck now that you know the truth.
 

canyonman

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BSK asked,What should be used as a measure of QDM success for a given property?
We all want to keep score,is all the hard work going to pay off ,
is all the money we spend on improvements worth it?
We pass on the younger bucks hoping that old mossy back will show up and when he does and we kill this old wise animal that has tricked us for many years, there is no greater feeling.
Is this the true measure of success?
The land i hunt has been in my family for 54 years.My father killed his first buck in 1963.When I started hunting in 1975 the only rule we had is you could only kill one buck.I finaly killed my first buck in 1981 and I have killed many deer since then.The success I have today started before 1963 before the first buck was even killed.My father died 3 yrs ago and left me in charge of the land I hunt today.The QDM I practice today is not just for me its for my children and there children for years to come.
And that is the true measure of success,that we leave the land better than it was given to us.
 

BigGameGuy

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You couldn't have said it any better Canyonman. That is the land ethic Aldo Leopold made famous in the Sand County Almanac.
 

Greg .

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I agree, good post canyonman.

For me ... I don't think I can really measure QDM 'success'. I only have a tiny piece of land that I may manage (12+ acres), but am surrounded by about 240 acres that isn't currently hunted. I have always let all yearling bucks walk and take a couple does per year off my land since I first started hunting it 6 years ago. At first, I didn't see a buck bigger than a yearling spike. Lately I have been seeing more larger yearlings and the occasional 2.5 and 3.5 year old. So ... I think I may be making a difference.

One problem I see in my area is hunter density. We've got some "brown, it's downers" (and this mostly refers to bucks) hunting nearby and even though they can only take 2 bucks/year each, their sheer numbers put a hurt on our young buck population every year.
 

Radar

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I like canyonman's measurement of success . I don't really get into the science of deer management . I just enjoy deer hunting for what it is , a sport that has been a tradition in my family for generations .
Success is directly proportionate to the size of the grin for the successfull hunter .
 

BSK

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I agree that hunter satisfaction should be a major part of any "measure of success." But I'm looking at it from a scientific/biological perspective.

In any given year, a large percentage of the older bucks using a particular smaller property probably did not use it previously and may not use that property in following years. If those older bucks are not "products" of the small properties passing of young bucks nor the managed habitat, the bucks "biological factors," such as body weight and antler measurements--both used to track biological improvements--are not accurate measures of the properties management efforts. But the fact those bucks are there, that year may very well be the thing that needs to be used as the best biological measure of success.

In essence something about the small land management probably influenced those bucks to use that property during that hunting season. Finding those influences may need to be the focus of small land management, and simply measuring the "attraction power" of those influences may need to be the real measure of "biological success."
 

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