BGG,
NO! It makes no sense!
NO! It makes no sense!
Measures of QDM "success"
- Thread starter BSK
- Start date
BigGameGuy
Well-Known Member
You just repeated what I said...
I put it in language BSK can unterstand. -Great Minds-
I didn't even read yours until I posted mine.
I didn't even read yours until I posted mine.
My feeling is that if one doesn't get ALL the neighbors within a 1 mile radius to buy into the same QDM plan then all a person on small acreage is doing is attracting deer to his property when he manages the habitat. By managing the habitat to attract bucks it can not be just "food plots". If you don't give that mature buck a core sanctuary you wont keep him on your place.
By and large the 1 1/2 year olds that we are passing up this year will end up:
1) In the back of someone else's truck this year
2) Will end up as a 2 1/2 year old on another peice of property a mile or better away next year.
The better the habitat for that buck, the better chance he has of being and staying there.
Now I haven't killed a 1 1/2 year old buck in 20 years, but I do kill a buck every year. I found out that 20 years ago when I killed a 1 1/2 year old buck on the opening day of bow season (limit was one buck with a bow)that I was missing out on a lot of hunting by shooting the first buck that came along.
Since then I have become more selective and hunt longer and longer. Hunting longer in a season increases a person's chance of crossing paths with a wall hanger.
I've heard many a hunter say after they take a small buck that they very seldom see any big bucks. The law of averages says that if they kill the first buck they see it will more than likely be a 1 1/2 old. If one wants a bigger buck, then have to stop shooting the little bucks and stay in the woods and hunt.
I've found the longer and harder I hunt the luckier I get.
By and large the 1 1/2 year olds that we are passing up this year will end up:
1) In the back of someone else's truck this year
2) Will end up as a 2 1/2 year old on another peice of property a mile or better away next year.
The better the habitat for that buck, the better chance he has of being and staying there.
Now I haven't killed a 1 1/2 year old buck in 20 years, but I do kill a buck every year. I found out that 20 years ago when I killed a 1 1/2 year old buck on the opening day of bow season (limit was one buck with a bow)that I was missing out on a lot of hunting by shooting the first buck that came along.
Since then I have become more selective and hunt longer and longer. Hunting longer in a season increases a person's chance of crossing paths with a wall hanger.
I've heard many a hunter say after they take a small buck that they very seldom see any big bucks. The law of averages says that if they kill the first buck they see it will more than likely be a 1 1/2 old. If one wants a bigger buck, then have to stop shooting the little bucks and stay in the woods and hunt.
I've found the longer and harder I hunt the luckier I get.
Radar
Well-Known Member
I agree with habitat managment being one of the most important factors of keeping mature bucks in the area . They need security cover to escape the hunting pressure .
I have seen pressured deer hide in some unusual places to escape hunting pressure .
I have seen pressured deer hide in some unusual places to escape hunting pressure .
gil1
Well-Known Member
Question - When do bucks disperse?
If they disperse before they are 1 1/2, then I'm assuming (outside of the rut), their range after that will generally stay the same until they die. So if I see a 1 1/2 yr. old buck and it has dispersed to my property and set up shop there, my property should stay as part of its range forever. So if I don't shoot it and it isn't killed on the surrounding properties that are also a part of its range, who's to say I won't have the possibility of seeing it and killing it when it is 3 1/2, 4 1/2, etc.? I know these are big "ifs." I'm just not understanding the premise that if you pass up a 1 1/2 yr. old, it will go somewhere else, and you'll never see it again.
If they disperse before they are 1 1/2, then I'm assuming (outside of the rut), their range after that will generally stay the same until they die. So if I see a 1 1/2 yr. old buck and it has dispersed to my property and set up shop there, my property should stay as part of its range forever. So if I don't shoot it and it isn't killed on the surrounding properties that are also a part of its range, who's to say I won't have the possibility of seeing it and killing it when it is 3 1/2, 4 1/2, etc.? I know these are big "ifs." I'm just not understanding the premise that if you pass up a 1 1/2 yr. old, it will go somewhere else, and you'll never see it again.
Mike Belt
Well-Known Member
gil1---As I posted on the previous page, it is my understanding that if a dispersing buck "chooses" your area as his stomping grounds during the fall/winter seasons and all things remain the same thereafter, he's likely to return yearly to the same areas he's familiar with and where he has learned to seek safety during the hunting seasons. If I'm wrong about this someone please correct me.
Chris Tripp
Well-Known Member
Yearling bucks are dispersed by the mother does, that is one reason I along with QDM proponents recommend such heavy doe harvests.
BSK
Well-Known Member
gil1 said:
Yearling bucks disperse from their birth range at one of two times: 1) In late spring, as their mother gets ready to have her new fawns; or 2) in fall, just before the rut. I generally pick up this fall dispersal on my trail cams the last two weeks of October and the first week of November.
For some reason, Yearling Buck Dispersal (YBD) studies in the North find much more dispersal in spring, while YBD studies in the South find more dispersal in the fall.
BSK
Well-Known Member
Foggy54, wrote:
I'll call my limited QDM efforts a sucess for me as I can see deer daily where as before I did not.
And for very small land management, that may be the best criterion of success.
I'll call my limited QDM efforts a sucess for me as I can see deer daily where as before I did not.
And for very small land management, that may be the best criterion of success.
BSK
Well-Known Member
gil1 wrote:
If they disperse before they are 1 1/2, then I'm assuming (outside of the rut), their range after that will generally stay the same until they die. So if I see a 1 1/2 yr. old buck and it has dispersed to my property and set up shop there, my property should stay as part of its range forever.
Mike Belt wrote:
it is my understanding that if a dispersing buck "chooses" your area as his stomping grounds during the fall/winter seasons and all things remain the same thereafter, he's likely to return yearly to the same areas he's familiar with and where he has learned to seek safety during the hunting seasons.
That situation was always thought to be the case. But these new GPS collar studies appear to be questioning that concept. I look forward to seeing more details from the Auburn study that will be presented at next year's Southeast Deer Study Group meeting, but some preliminary data shows that bucks often have very different "rut ranges" from one year to the next, sometimes with no overlap at all between the two years' rut ranges for the same buck. In fact, on average, individual buck rut ranges from one year to the next only overlaped by 50%.
Now neither study was specifically looking at seasonal shifts in range, but perhaps I can borrow some of this data to look for that in particular. But from what I'm hearing anecdotally about the data, bucks are displaying fairly destinct and different seasonal shifts from year to year.
This would definitely match a lot of my data. I can show example after example of bucks that show up on a given property at the same time of year every year, but I think that is the minority of cases. I haven't gone through all my trail camera data over the years and made an exact count, but I'll bet when I do I find that more than 50% of the older bucks I photograph on a property in a given year have never been seen on that property before and never again. In other cases, I'll get a buck one year, but not the next, only to have him show up again in the 3rd year. He did not have the same fall/rut range every year, but did 2 out of 3 years.
If all of this new data strongly suggests (and I think it will) that it is a rare event that bucks are "raised" in a given area all their lives, then we have to throw the idea of "growing" a specific herd of deer on a small property out the window. Then what do we use as a measure of success on these smaller properties?
If they disperse before they are 1 1/2, then I'm assuming (outside of the rut), their range after that will generally stay the same until they die. So if I see a 1 1/2 yr. old buck and it has dispersed to my property and set up shop there, my property should stay as part of its range forever.
Mike Belt wrote:
it is my understanding that if a dispersing buck "chooses" your area as his stomping grounds during the fall/winter seasons and all things remain the same thereafter, he's likely to return yearly to the same areas he's familiar with and where he has learned to seek safety during the hunting seasons.
That situation was always thought to be the case. But these new GPS collar studies appear to be questioning that concept. I look forward to seeing more details from the Auburn study that will be presented at next year's Southeast Deer Study Group meeting, but some preliminary data shows that bucks often have very different "rut ranges" from one year to the next, sometimes with no overlap at all between the two years' rut ranges for the same buck. In fact, on average, individual buck rut ranges from one year to the next only overlaped by 50%.
Now neither study was specifically looking at seasonal shifts in range, but perhaps I can borrow some of this data to look for that in particular. But from what I'm hearing anecdotally about the data, bucks are displaying fairly destinct and different seasonal shifts from year to year.
This would definitely match a lot of my data. I can show example after example of bucks that show up on a given property at the same time of year every year, but I think that is the minority of cases. I haven't gone through all my trail camera data over the years and made an exact count, but I'll bet when I do I find that more than 50% of the older bucks I photograph on a property in a given year have never been seen on that property before and never again. In other cases, I'll get a buck one year, but not the next, only to have him show up again in the 3rd year. He did not have the same fall/rut range every year, but did 2 out of 3 years.
If all of this new data strongly suggests (and I think it will) that it is a rare event that bucks are "raised" in a given area all their lives, then we have to throw the idea of "growing" a specific herd of deer on a small property out the window. Then what do we use as a measure of success on these smaller properties?
Chris Tripp
Well-Known Member
Brian... would you happen to have any copies of notes from this year's southeast deer study?
BSK
Well-Known Member
BigGameGuy,
I definitely believe that QDM managed small properties are the "source" for yearling bucks and that nieghboring non-QDM properties are the sink for those young bucks. On the other hand, the adjacent non-QDM lands are the source for doe groups and the QDM managed property becomes the sink for those does.
However, once you get into older bucks, that system may break down a bit, simply because older bucks are more wary. I still can't figure out exactly what is going on from one year to the next with individual older bucks, but something unusual is.
But I still feel that the number of harvestable older bucks using a small property during the hunting season may be the best BIOLOGICAL measure of "QDM success," even though the QDM program didn't necessarily "produce" those old bucks. A real quandry... Although the population of summer "resident" older bucks should not be overlooked either, whether those bucks stay on the property year-round or not.
I definitely believe that QDM managed small properties are the "source" for yearling bucks and that nieghboring non-QDM properties are the sink for those young bucks. On the other hand, the adjacent non-QDM lands are the source for doe groups and the QDM managed property becomes the sink for those does.
However, once you get into older bucks, that system may break down a bit, simply because older bucks are more wary. I still can't figure out exactly what is going on from one year to the next with individual older bucks, but something unusual is.
But I still feel that the number of harvestable older bucks using a small property during the hunting season may be the best BIOLOGICAL measure of "QDM success," even though the QDM program didn't necessarily "produce" those old bucks. A real quandry... Although the population of summer "resident" older bucks should not be overlooked either, whether those bucks stay on the property year-round or not.
Chris Tripp
Well-Known Member
guess that would be a "no, not for you "
"BSK
Well-Known Member
Chris,
All I have is my "chicken scratch" notes. I honestly wish they would publish the full proceedings each year. What is presented in the abstracts often doesn't tell the whole story (because the abstracts have to be submitted long before the actual conference, hence new data may have been collected and analyzed).
All I have is my "chicken scratch" notes. I honestly wish they would publish the full proceedings each year. What is presented in the abstracts often doesn't tell the whole story (because the abstracts have to be submitted long before the actual conference, hence new data may have been collected and analyzed).
Chris Tripp
Well-Known Member
Maybe one year I will actually have time to attend. I do wish they offered journals from the meeting for sale.
TheLBLman
Well-Known Member
While I very strongly believe that the people who practice QDM, particularly each individual hunter practicing it, are the ones receiving the greatest benefits . . . . . . .
Everything posted above makes a strong case for the importance of very biologically sound deer regulations being placed in effect by TWRA for each county-wide area.
While it seems most hunters benefit from any hunters practicing QDM, those hunters practicing QDM on small properties will see much of the potential benefits of QDM greatly reduced if hunters on surrounding properties are pounding yearling bucks.
The term "if it's brown it's down" does not necessarily mean these hunters are killing just ANY deer ---- I commonly find groups of hunters who will kill ANY antlered buck (killing mostly yearlings), yet will not kill a doe. And these hunters commonly use the term "if it's brown it's down".
Of course, if the county deer regs were "buck only", then these "if it's brown it's down" hunters are in fact killing any legal deer. Even in Unit L, there are many hunters afield under "buck only" regs during all centerfire rifle deer season segments, as many will not pay extra money for a doe permit (or sportsman's license which includes it). Surely some of these particular hunters would just as soon kill a doe (if legal) as a spike buck?
Which raises another question with particular bearing on small properties attempting to practice QDM:
What percentage of the surrounding area's buck harvest is from hunters who are only hunting during the "buck only" rifle season? I contend it's quite high, even in Unit L, as the hunters least likely to kill a yearling buck are the hunters most likely to have paid extra for that doe permit. Would simple "either-sex" regs enhance the results of small property QDM?
Everything posted above makes a strong case for the importance of very biologically sound deer regulations being placed in effect by TWRA for each county-wide area.
While it seems most hunters benefit from any hunters practicing QDM, those hunters practicing QDM on small properties will see much of the potential benefits of QDM greatly reduced if hunters on surrounding properties are pounding yearling bucks.
The term "if it's brown it's down" does not necessarily mean these hunters are killing just ANY deer ---- I commonly find groups of hunters who will kill ANY antlered buck (killing mostly yearlings), yet will not kill a doe. And these hunters commonly use the term "if it's brown it's down".
Of course, if the county deer regs were "buck only", then these "if it's brown it's down" hunters are in fact killing any legal deer. Even in Unit L, there are many hunters afield under "buck only" regs during all centerfire rifle deer season segments, as many will not pay extra money for a doe permit (or sportsman's license which includes it). Surely some of these particular hunters would just as soon kill a doe (if legal) as a spike buck?
Which raises another question with particular bearing on small properties attempting to practice QDM:
What percentage of the surrounding area's buck harvest is from hunters who are only hunting during the "buck only" rifle season? I contend it's quite high, even in Unit L, as the hunters least likely to kill a yearling buck are the hunters most likely to have paid extra for that doe permit. Would simple "either-sex" regs enhance the results of small property QDM?
Wes,
You are getting off BSK's subject!
But to answer your question - Either Sex regs do nothing to alter the buck harvest. The hunter that wants to shoot any buck will do so weather he shoots a doe or not. Look at the doe kills in unit L last year. A few hunters are going to shoot does with a rifle. Most won't.
You are getting off BSK's subject!
But to answer your question - Either Sex regs do nothing to alter the buck harvest. The hunter that wants to shoot any buck will do so weather he shoots a doe or not. Look at the doe kills in unit L last year. A few hunters are going to shoot does with a rifle. Most won't.
156p&y
Well-Known Member
Throughout the years we will occasionally have a deer that tends to pretty much live on the farm for year after year. It is rare but usually those bucks are much easier to hunt b/c they are actually predictable compared to many of the other bucks. Then again we have bucks that I'll spot and scout in late August and most of the time video them for future use. Some of those bucks will vanish when they shed their velvet. Whether they are leaving or just simply going nocturnal from their testosterone change I haven't figured out. And since we only use about 1 trail camera I have yet to figure out if they are just nocturnal. A lot of times those bucks will materialize once or twice during the peak of the chase phase.BSK said:
Another thing I've noticed is that dominate bucks tend to claim certain areas on the farm when the rut is approaching and if harvested are quickly replaced by another dominate buck near the area. So each year those place tend to produce results year after year.
I'm off too for one post..
In Indiana we have a general firearms tag that is buck only.
In order to kill an antlerless deer one must purcase a "bonus tag". That is $24 for the first one and $15 for each tag there after.
We have tried , unsuccessfully so far, to get the IDNR to make that general firearm tag an either sex. That way when it comes down to the end of the season of that hunter he might just pop a doe instead of that small buck.
We hear the "I took a forkie on the last weekend just for meat" way too often.Just because thay didn't want to eat that general firearms tag.
In Indiana we have a general firearms tag that is buck only.
In order to kill an antlerless deer one must purcase a "bonus tag". That is $24 for the first one and $15 for each tag there after.
We have tried , unsuccessfully so far, to get the IDNR to make that general firearm tag an either sex. That way when it comes down to the end of the season of that hunter he might just pop a doe instead of that small buck.
We hear the "I took a forkie on the last weekend just for meat" way too often.Just because thay didn't want to eat that general firearms tag.
