skynimrod
Well-Known Member
My empty 444 lever/evolution brass is shorter than my rem. brass. Any reloaders out there with sugestions for reloading these?
Leverevolution Brass
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skynimrod
Well-Known Member
I have not sized them yet but their alot shorter than other 444 brass about 1/4 inch 2.065 compaird to 2.21 for the rems
.444 Marlin
Well-Known Member
If I were reloading them, I'd start about 1gr below the minimum load and work up, checking for pressure signs every grain that you up the load.
skynimrod
Well-Known Member
I was wondering if cast bullets would work better since they are often so long as to get the crimp over the ogive right, and still be close to my barrel lands.I think i'll hang on to my evolution brass for now and wait until hornady releases there rubber tips to the reloaders (rumer has it to be soon).I want to reload the speer gold dots 270 gr. anyway.
I wonder why the cases are shorter on this ammo?
I reload 450 Marlin and I have a box of new Hornady loads in 450 Marlin, I'll try to measure and see if the brass is the same as my other brass. Good question!
skynimrod
Well-Known Member
Your right Eric, to fit that long nose in their they had to shorten the case from what I have gotten from other forums
skynimrod
Well-Known Member
To feed right in the lever guns,I guess the shortend the case to accept the new bullet
"Case Lenght" shouldn't have any bearing on the action cycleing/feeding.Unless they are too long.
The "OAL Cartridge Lenght" would and the case lenght dosen't matter on that one,nor the bullet lenght.It is the seating depth of bullet that does matter.A long bullet can be seated deeper into a "Spec Lenght" Case to get the correct OAL.
Why these cases are under spec lenght I don't know but the bullet lenght ain't got a thing to with it.The 30/30 and 35rem are also longer but the case lenght is still in specs on those I have.
The "OAL Cartridge Lenght" would and the case lenght dosen't matter on that one,nor the bullet lenght.It is the seating depth of bullet that does matter.A long bullet can be seated deeper into a "Spec Lenght" Case to get the correct OAL.
Why these cases are under spec lenght I don't know but the bullet lenght ain't got a thing to with it.The 30/30 and 35rem are also longer but the case lenght is still in specs on those I have.
I haven't looked at that particular cartridge, but I suspect that the ogive on the new bullet is very long to get somewhat better downrange ballistics and that results in a long bullet nose which has to be seated deeper. The portion of the bullet where the cannalure is probably farther back and with this being a tubular magazine gun it must be crimped for safety. Their only resort to get a streamlined bullet and a crimp in the cannalure was to shorten the case. Bullet length didn't cause it, but bullet nose length did. The smaller calibers wouldn't have had so pronounced a nose length increase.
I can see where this could cause some problems to the unwary if one suddenly took cases and loaded them with old loads seated to the cannalure without measuring the cases. Suddenly you have a smaller case capacity and boom. Of course everyone should always measure and trim cases, but people do things.
I can see where this could cause some problems to the unwary if one suddenly took cases and loaded them with old loads seated to the cannalure without measuring the cases. Suddenly you have a smaller case capacity and boom. Of course everyone should always measure and trim cases, but people do things.
skynimrod
Well-Known Member
Well put Whelen Man, like I said the long nose I think was the kicker to shorten the case
WhelenMan,
Well said and it very well may be the case here,but I still don't think so.
The nose lenght and taper can be adjusted for your above as well.I think that is exactly what they have done to 308 160gr.The one in the 30/30 has a lower BC than the the one loaded in 308 Marlin Exprees.At leaset thats what that the gun rags wrote anyways and looking at photos of both rounds one can see the difference in the nose profile.
Does the 444 Head Space on the Rim or the Case Mouth?
If it does Headspace off the Rim it wouldn't be a problem,off the case mouth and you could have some trouble.
Not that this is a big deal to me just real interesting as are most things with guns and shotting,some more so than others.
Well said and it very well may be the case here,but I still don't think so.
The nose lenght and taper can be adjusted for your above as well.I think that is exactly what they have done to 308 160gr.The one in the 30/30 has a lower BC than the the one loaded in 308 Marlin Exprees.At leaset thats what that the gun rags wrote anyways and looking at photos of both rounds one can see the difference in the nose profile.
Does the 444 Head Space on the Rim or the Case Mouth?
If it does Headspace off the Rim it wouldn't be a problem,off the case mouth and you could have some trouble.
Not that this is a big deal to me just real interesting as are most things with guns and shotting,some more so than others.
I measured my brass for my 450 Marlin and the factory loaded ammo's brass was about .050 shorter than unprimed brass from Hornady. The brass had the same headstamp.
.7230 Factory loaded brass HLE
.7760 Unprimed brass
.7230 Factory loaded brass HLE
.7760 Unprimed brass
This is all making my head hurt. :grin: Tiny what you say is interesting and I think we could have a great time talking. I wonder if the length of the rubber nose is the same length as the decrease in case length? What I've run into with the 358 Winchester and the long nosed 225 ballistic tips is that when you seat the bullet to the specified maximum COL you wind up without the full diameter of the bullet at the end of the case and there is a space between the bullet and the case. Luckily mine is a long throat and long magazine and I can adjust by seating longer. It's probably some combination of these factors. It's an interesting route by the factory though.
Cull Buck Hunter---I've also notice amounts like that in some other factory ammo. Sometimes it takes me several firings before the brass stretches to full Saami specs. Maybe it saves them money. Who knows?
Somebody get some cases out and tell us.
Cull Buck Hunter---I've also notice amounts like that in some other factory ammo. Sometimes it takes me several firings before the brass stretches to full Saami specs. Maybe it saves them money. Who knows?
Somebody get some cases out and tell us.
Strange it is!
WhelenMan,
and same here on the good time talking.
Have noticed the same as you have on your 358 only with the 30/30 and some 125gr spitzers.The BT's and Barnes do the same in it and I would bet most all the 150gr would do the same haven't tried them yet,BTW its a 788,does make for some weird looking ammo.Wish my magazine clip was longer for it so I could seat them further out in mine
"Rubber Tip Lenght being the same as the case lenght being shorter". Sir after tonight you may have hit the ol nail dead center.Was at BPS tonight for one of there Prefered Rewards Card events.I went to the ammo section and found both Remington and the Hornady Lever Evolution 444 ammo.The overall lenght is close and from just looking at it the above may be the reason for the diffeerence in case lenght.
Cull Buck Hunter-
Thanks for your infromation on the 450 Marlin cases from Hornady. I'am wondering if they uee shoter 444 marlin case for there Custom loading??
Two different case lenghts for the same caliber seems like a good way to have big foul up.
Looks like we may have to start carrying the calpiers along with us to the gun shop.
I did notice another possible odd deal for different ammo that I'am going to be ask about in another topic. "WSM Brass Question"
and same here on the good time talking.Have noticed the same as you have on your 358 only with the 30/30 and some 125gr spitzers.The BT's and Barnes do the same in it and I would bet most all the 150gr would do the same haven't tried them yet,BTW its a 788,does make for some weird looking ammo.Wish my magazine clip was longer for it so I could seat them further out in mine
"Rubber Tip Lenght being the same as the case lenght being shorter". Sir after tonight you may have hit the ol nail dead center.Was at BPS tonight for one of there Prefered Rewards Card events.I went to the ammo section and found both Remington and the Hornady Lever Evolution 444 ammo.The overall lenght is close and from just looking at it the above may be the reason for the diffeerence in case lenght.
Cull Buck Hunter-
Thanks for your infromation on the 450 Marlin cases from Hornady. I'am wondering if they uee shoter 444 marlin case for there Custom loading??
Two different case lenghts for the same caliber seems like a good way to have big foul up.
Looks like we may have to start carrying the calpiers along with us to the gun shop.
I did notice another possible odd deal for different ammo that I'am going to be ask about in another topic. "WSM Brass Question"
